Cycling Equipment · Public discussion

Adding Frame Braze-ons

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Cycling Equipment
Published
19 August 2003
Last activity
30 August 2003
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Grenouil
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  1. I'm refurbishing an Ishiwata 022 steel frameset, and would like to add down tube shifter bosses and
    top tube cable guides or stops. None of the local bike shops have the capability to do frame
    brazing. One shop quoted $30 per joint, plus shipping to California. I can find other non-local
    places like Cyclart that can do the work, but shipping costs are generally prohibitive.

    A little bit of web research indicates that I can buy a 'mini-brazing torch' for less than about
    $20. The specs indicate that these provide temperatures over 1,000 degs. C, and I understand that
    silver brazing requires temperatures of about 500 to 700 degs. C. I'm fairly sure I can get high
    silver content brazing rod and flux locally. How difficult would it be to braze the bosses and
    guides myself using one of these torches - has anyone ever done this?

  2. Grenouil' may have said:

    I'm refurbishing an Ishiwata 022 steel frameset, and would like to add down tube shifter bosses and
    top tube cable guides or stops. None of the local bike shops have the capability to do frame
    brazing. One shop quoted $30 per joint, plus shipping to California. I can find other non-local
    places like Cyclart that can do the work, but shipping costs are generally prohibitive.

    A little bit of web research indicates that I can buy a 'mini-brazing torch' for less than about
    $20. The specs indicate that these provide temperatures over 1,000 degs. C, and I understand that
    silver brazing requires temperatures of about 500 to 700 degs. C. I'm fairly sure I can get high
    silver content brazing rod and flux locally. How difficult would it be to braze the bosses and
    guides myself using one of these torches - has anyone ever done this?

    My opinion: Save your time, money, and frame; don't try the mini-torch thing. Yes, some of them will
    get a couple of pieces of steel wire hot enough to braze together, but the frame tube of a bike is a
    much larger piece. In order to get the frame hot enough with a torch that small and of that low
    temp, you'd have to heat too large of an area, and the torch might never get the tube hot enough to
    flow the alloy.

    Remember that the brazing will result in the need for paint work. Done well, with the right kind of
    torch and liberal use of things like shielding paste, the paint-damage area can be kept quite small.

    If you have a welding shop available that's known to be trustworty, I'd say that it might be
    worthwhile to try them.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
    don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

  3. "Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:51:56 -0500, "Grenouil" <[email hidden]> may have said:

    My opinion: Save your time, money, and frame; don't try


    the

    Quoted message said:

    mini-torch thing. Yes, some of them will get a couple of


    pieces of

    Quoted message said:

    steel wire hot enough to braze together, but the frame


    tube of a bike

    Quoted message said:

    is a much larger piece. In order to get the frame hot


    enough with a

    Quoted message said:

    torch that small and of that low temp, you'd have to heat


    too large of

    Quoted message said:

    an area, and the torch might never get the tube hot enough


    to flow the

    Quoted message said:

    alloy.

    Remember that the brazing will result in the need for


    paint work.

    Quoted message said:

    Done well, with the right kind of torch and liberal use of


    things like

    Quoted message said:

    shielding paste, the paint-damage area can be kept quite


    small.

    Quoted message said:


    If you have a welding shop available that's known to be


    trustworty,

    Quoted message said:

    I'd say that it might be worthwhile to try them.


    Paint damage is not an issue - there's no paint on the frame right now

    If I could find a 'welding shop that's known to be trustworthy' I would use them of course. I've
    checked with a couple - through friends that restore old cars - and they won't touch something
    this delicate

  4. Werehatrack <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:


    My opinion: Save your time, money, and frame; don't try the mini-torch thing. Yes, some of them
    will get a couple of pieces of steel wire hot enough to braze together, but the frame tube of a
    bike is a much larger piece. In order to get the frame hot enough with a torch that small and of
    that low temp, you'd have to heat too large of an area, and the torch might never get the tube hot
    enough to flow the alloy.

    Most people are not capable of brazing something like a braze-on onto thin wall steel tubing
    properly and I suggest you not even try unless you're planning on throwing away the first
    couple of tries.

    Quoted message said:

    If you have a welding shop available that's known to be trustworty, I'd say that it might be
    worthwhile to try them.

    YIKES! DO NOT put ultra-thin wall tubing in the hands of someone that sticks big pieces of steel
    together. You might be lucky and get someone with finess. More than likely you won't. And for your
    effort the frame will fail where the tubes were seriously overheated.

    There are bicycle builders all over the USA. I'm sure that you can find one in your area. They are
    reasonably priced guys who don't earn a lot for exceedingly frustrating work.

    And as "Werehatrack" points out, after they are through the bike requires painting. So you ain't
    getting away with sticking on braze-ons on the cheap.

    If it is a frame you like and want to keep do it right.

  5. "Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Werehatrack <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    My opinion: Save your time, money, and frame; don't try


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    mini-torch thing. Yes, some of them will get a couple


    of pieces of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    steel wire hot enough to braze together, but the frame


    tube of a bike

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    is a much larger piece. In order to get the frame hot


    enough with a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    torch that small and of that low temp, you'd have to


    heat too large of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    an area, and the torch might never get the tube hot


    enough to flow the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    alloy.

    Most people are not capable of brazing something like a


    braze-on onto

    Quoted message said:

    thin wall steel tubing properly and I suggest you not even


    try unless

    Quoted message said:

    you're planning on throwing away the first couple of


    tries.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    If you have a welding shop available that's known to be


    trustworty,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I'd say that it might be worthwhile to try them.

    YIKES! DO NOT put ultra-thin wall tubing in the hands of


    someone that

    Quoted message said:

    sticks big pieces of steel together. You might be lucky


    and get

    Quoted message said:

    someone with finess. More than likely you won't. And for


    your effort

    Quoted message said:

    the frame will fail where the tubes were seriously


    overheated.

    Quoted message said:


    There are bicycle builders all over the USA. I'm sure that


    you can

    Quoted message said:

    find one in your area. They are reasonably priced guys who


    don't earn

    Quoted message said:

    a lot for exceedingly frustrating work.

    And as "Werehatrack" points out, after they are through


    the bike

    Quoted message said:

    requires painting. So you ain't getting away with sticking


    on

    Quoted message said:

    braze-ons on the cheap.

    If it is a frame you like and want to keep do it right.

    Tom - please read my original post....

    I have called just about all of the local bike shops in the Nashville area - only one could
    suggest a frame builder within driving distance and they don't do add-ons - only make custom
    frames. If you know of a good one - anywhere in central Tennessee, Southern Kentucky, or northern
    Alabama, let me know....

    It was 'Werehatrack's suggestion that I try a local welding shop.....

    And the frame is ALREADY stripped to the metal - I intend to have it powder coated after I get the
    other work done

    If I try this myself, I would obviously do a few trial runs on a junk frame I have here BEFORE
    trying the real thing

  6. Grenouil' may have said:

    It was 'Werehatrack's suggestion that I try a local welding shop.....

    In Nashville, that may be more difficult than it is here. I know several near me that I'd have no
    qualms about walking it into, but I'd be there to tell them exactly what I wanted, and I've done
    enough silver solder work to be able to articulate what I'm concerned about in terms they'd
    understand. (And we have a *huge* range of such shops around here, dealing with everything from
    custom medical implant seam welding up to ship hull plate work.)

    Quoted message said:

    And the frame is ALREADY stripped to the metal - I intend to have it powder coated after I get the
    other work done

    That would be the time.

    Quoted message said:

    If I try this myself, I would obviously do a few trial runs on a junk frame I have here BEFORE
    trying the real thing

    Bear in mind that you'll need an oxy-acetylene or other two-gas torch in order to get a concentrated
    enough, hot enough flame to be able to minimize your hot zone and keep from overheating too much of
    the tube...and then there is the issue of gaining the experience with knowing what kind of flame is
    correct, and how much heat is "hot enough", which with silver solder is a fairly small zone that's
    easy to overshoot even when you've done it lots of times before,...and there are other issues as
    well. What I'm hinting at, in case it isn't obvious, is that if you *really* want this to work for
    the long run, get the brazing done professionally. Not only will you be protecting your frame, but
    you won't have to pay for finishing it twice. If there's no one to do it in Nashville, check with
    the bike shops in Huntsville or Louisville. Heck, ask Sheldon Brown who to ship it to.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
    don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

  7. Find a local frambuilder. Lots of us around. Phil Brown

  8. In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    I have called just about all of the local bike shops in the Nashville area - only one could
    suggest a frame builder within driving distance and they don't do add-ons - only make custom
    frames. If you know of a good one - anywhere in central Tennessee, Southern Kentucky, or northern
    Alabama, let me know....

    It was 'Werehatrack's suggestion that I try a local welding shop.....

    You want someone who is used to doing silver brazing on steel. If there isn't a good local
    framebuilder, you might look for a good local gunsmith.

    This is something you can do yourself with a MAPP/air torch, but you want to practice a lot on scrap
    tubing first. Doing it yourself is rewarding, but could easily cost more than paying someone to do
    it, given the cost of practice materials.

    --
    [email hidden] is Joshua Putnam <http://www.phred.org/~josh/> Braze your own bicycle frames. See
    <phred.orgbuild.html

  9. Joshua Putnam may have said:

    You want someone who is used to doing silver brazing on steel. If there isn't a good local
    framebuilder, you might look for a good local gunsmith.

    Gunsmith; that's a good thought. If they can put a front sight on a 12-guage, this should be a snap.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
    don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

  10. "Joshua Putnam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MPG.19acbdb450743cb09896fb@localhost...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    I have called just about all of the local bike shops in


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Nashville area - only one could suggest a frame builder within driving distance and they don't
    do add-ons - only make custom frames. If you know of a good one -


    anywhere in

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    central Tennessee, Southern Kentucky, or northern


    Alabama,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    let me know....

    It was 'Werehatrack's suggestion that I try a local


    welding

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    shop.....

    You want someone who is used to doing silver brazing on


    steel. If there

    Quoted message said:

    isn't a good local framebuilder, you might look for a good


    local

    Quoted message said:

    gunsmith.

    This is something you can do yourself with a MAPP/air


    torch, but you want

    Quoted message said:

    to practice a lot on scrap tubing first. Doing it


    yourself is rewarding,

    Quoted message said:

    but could easily cost more than paying someone to do it,


    given the cost

    Quoted message said:

    of practice materials.

    --


    Joshua - very useful suggestion. Tennessee may be a bit short of bike frame builders, but I bet
    there are a hell of a lot of gunsmiths 🙂)

    I'll do some investigating......

  11. This is no problem for you to do !! Brazing is not that hard, its not black magic like some would
    have you believe.

    My dropout broke when I was staying for 3 months in DC. I went down to the local hardware and bought
    a little propane and oxygen tank and brazed up fracture in the hotel room. That was 10 yrs ago, its
    still just fine.

    Clean extremely well. Even fingerprint. No Oil ! Use a little c-clamp to hold cable stops. File
    little notches or groove into c-clamp to help hold. Use flux obviously.

    Heat up and stick rod in flame close to where heating steel, when brazing rod melts you want it to
    flow to steel, Don't get steel any hotter than to make this happen. I would say one to two practices
    is all you need!

    Thats [censored] about local welders not know what they are doing! They aren't idiots, believe me if
    they are a professional welder they can easily do this and they will be professional about it. I
    would still ask questions and LET him know the tubing is really really thin and also that you want
    to Use Silver rod with lower temp and not brass. And that you absolutely can't have it overheated.
    If the guy doesn't really listen or is arrogant, move on, he's probably not a professional welder...
    (I personally would just use brass though). Hell just do this yourself.. its so simple !! Although
    if you set this up (clean locate and clamp the pieces and then take it into a weld shop, they could
    do this in about five minutes)

    For the shifter bosses most of the heat should go into the bosses at first since they are heavy.

    If you are going to mess with this stuff much I would seriously consider getting a normal torch,
    with a normal setup. Or maybe a friend, brother-in-law, neighbor has a torch, or local college or
    high school

    I don't think a mini-the whole thing fits in your hand will do the trick. But you can get what I
    bought ten years ago for about $30. The tanks don't last long though and can be expensive. like $5.

    John

    Quoted message said:

    I'm refurbishing an Ishiwata 022 steel frameset, and would like to add down tube shifter bosses
    and top tube cable guides or stops. None of the local bike shops have the capability to do frame
    brazing. One shop quoted $30 per joint, plus shipping to California. I can find other non-local
    places like Cyclart that can do the work, but shipping costs are generally prohibitive.

    A little bit of web research indicates that I can buy a 'mini-brazing torch' for less than about
    $20. The specs indicate that these provide temperatures over 1,000 degs. C, and I understand that
    silver brazing requires temperatures of about 500 to 700 degs. C. I'm fairly sure I can get high
    silver content brazing rod and flux locally. How difficult would it be to braze the bosses and
    guides myself using one of these torches - has anyone ever done this?

  12. I've brazed before and it really isn't that hard after a little practice. I disagree with the 1st guy that said that you shouldn't use on of those smaller torches. Generally, you would want and oxy-acetylene tank set up (large) if you were doing the joints of a frame since it requires more heat. But for Pete's sake man! All you want to do is braze on some small down tube shifter bosses. That's easy stuff and I think any newbie could do it with a little practice. So, in my opinion if you just want to do little braze-ons, then I certainly think you can get by with a small torch such as a Mapp Gass kit. sooo....

    - Get a Mapp Gass torch kit at a hardware store.
    - Sand off the paint real good.
    - Braze the little succkers on there.

    Email Fred Parr. He's got a great website for beginners. His website is http://www.probikeshop.com/ and his email is on there somewhere.

  13. (john m schmidt) may have said:

    This is no problem for you to do !! Brazing is not that hard, its not black magic like some would
    have you believe.

    Ever heard of embrittlement with 4130 tubing?

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
    don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

  14. BaCardi said:

    I've brazed before and it really isn't that hard after a little practice. I disagree with the 1st
    guy that said that you shouldn't use on of those smaller torches.

    You contradict yourself in saying that anyone can braze-on top-tube cable guides and downtube bottle
    bosses!! Fred Parr tells a story about a bicycle where top-tube braze-on cable guides were added at
    the last moment, outside the frame jig by a "shop finisher", causing an annealment that set the
    frame out-of-line, causing a "shimmy" while riding the bike.

    fredparr.comfeedback.htm

    brazer beware !!!

    - Don Gillies San Diego, CA

  15. Donald Gillies said:

    You contradict yourself in saying that anyone can braze-on top-tube cable guides and downtube
    bottle bosses!! Fred Parr tells a story about a bicycle where top-tube braze-on cable guides were
    added at the last moment, outside the frame jig by a "shop finisher", causing an annealment that
    set the frame out-of-line, causing a "shimmy" while riding the bike.


    Nonsense. Misalignment does not cause shimmy. You can't blame a shimmy on any one part of the bike.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | Enron's slogan: Respect, Communication, Integrity, and _`\(,_ | Excellence. (_)/ (_) |

  16. David L. Johnson said:

    Nonsense. Misalignment does not cause shimmy. You can't blame a shimmy on any one part of the bike.

    RE: fredparr.comfeedback.htm

    Did you even read the article by Fred Parr on the website you just quoted ?? They tested the frame
    (unpainted), it rode fine. At the last minute the customer asked for cable guides, a junior brazer
    put them, they painted the bike, and shipped it to the customer, who brought it back complaining of
    shimmy. They checked all the alignments and it was fine. They confirmed the shimmy when they rode
    the bike, hacksawed off the top-tube and replaced it, and this fixed the shimmy problem.

    When you let an amateur install braze-ons, they can overheat the tube and change its flexing
    properties. They independently confirmed this finding several times by experimenting on discarded
    tubes and checking the flex in both directions. By overheating one side of the tube, they were able
    to repeatedly make a tube that flexed more easily to one side than to another.

    I think you should read the web site more carefully before quoting Fred Parr out of context.

    - Don Gillies San Diego, CA

  17. (Donald Gillies) may have said:

    When you let an amateur install braze-ons, they can overheat the tube and change its flexing
    properties. They independently confirmed this finding several times by experimenting on discarded
    tubes and checking the flex in both directions. By overheating one side of the tube, they were able
    to repeatedly make a tube that flexed more easily to one side than to another.

    That tube obviously was easy to anneal. Some alloys, if overheated, will go in a different
    direction; they'll get brittle and prone to cracking. Bottom line; it needs to be done in a manner
    that heats as little of the tube as possible, and it needs to be done with good control of the temp
    of the work. Oddly enough, this generally means that it needs a *hot* torch, hotter than any
    single-gas, so that the heat can be applied to the small area rapidly, and then as soon as the joint
    has been made, the heat is withdrawn.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
    don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

  18. Donald Gillies said:
    David L. Johnson said:

    Nonsense. Misalignment does not cause shimmy. You can't blame a shimmy on any one part of
    the bike.

    RE: fredparr.comfeedback.htm

    Did you even read the article by Fred Parr on the website you just


    quoted

    Yes, I did.

    Quoted message said:

    ?? They tested the frame (unpainted), it rode fine. At the last minute the customer asked for
    cable guides, a junior brazer put them, they painted the bike, and shipped it to the customer, who
    brought it back complaining of shimmy.

    The customer did not test-ride the bike before the guides were brazed on, only after. You can
    take a bike that someone complains will shimmy uncontrollably, ride it, and not be able to make
    it shimmy at all. The rider matters, as do many other things. To blame it on the braze-ons is
    pure speculation. To think that that was the problem because replacing the top tube fixed it is
    also specious. Changing the top tube changed all the joints, seriously changing the elastic
    response of the bike.

    They checked all the alignments and it was fine.

    Quoted message said:

    They confirmed the shimmy when they rode the bike,

    The web site says nothing of the sort. The first thing he said he did when he got the bike back was
    to cut the top tube.

    Quoted message said:

    I think you should read the web site more carefully before quoting Fred Parr out of context.

    ??

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | We have a record of conquest, colonization and expansion _`\(,_ | unequalled by any people
    in the Nineteenth Century. We are not (_)/ (_) | to be curbed now. --Henry Cabot Lodge, 1895

  19. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by Donald Gillies

    BBaCardi said:

    I've brazed before and it really isn't that hard after a little practice. I disagree with the 1st
    guy that said that you shouldn't use on of those smaller torches.

    You contradict yourself in saying that anyone can braze-on top-tube cable guides and downtube bottle
    bosses!! Fred Parr tells a story about a bicycle where top-tube braze-on cable guides were added at
    the last moment, outside the frame jig by a "shop finisher", causing an annealment that set the
    frame out-of-line, causing a "shimmy" while riding the bike.

    fredparr.comfeedback.htm

    brazer beware !!!

    - Don Gillies San Diego, CA [/B]

    You are smoking crack. Brazing is not that hard to do. I never contradicted myself.

  20. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This is no problem for you to do !! Brazing is not that hard, its not black magic like some would
    have you believe.

    Ever heard of embrittlement with 4130 tubing?

    Ever hear of using silver brazing rod and simply not getting the tubing that hot?

    Use a really light flame and practice pulling the flame away from the tubing when it just starts
    turning color.

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