Adaptations on recovery days?

I'm starting to think I take too many recovery days (typically 2 per week, monday=off, friday=1 hr easy). Today, normally an easy spin, I did 2x20's at a solid speed on the trainer (compared to other sessions) with low PE (I think my PE monitor is broken). Are there any adaptations that happen over the course of a recovery day? Is there any reason to take on other than if it's needed to train properly for the next few days?

Alternately, maybe I should take RDO's stance, and say that 2x20's ARE a rest day!😄

whoawhoa said:

(I think my PE monitor is broken).

Good, you're getting into shape! Test, re-evaluate your FT as you may have to raise it.

If you had a hard Tues/Wed/Long Thurs; you should really WANT a recovery day Friday.

Other than that, I'd say you're finished base if you can't push hard enough.

whoawhoa said:

(I think my PE monitor is broken).

Good, you're getting into shape! Test, re-evaluate your FT as you may have to raise it.

If you had a hard Tues/Wed/Long Thurs; you should really WANT a recovery day Friday.

Other than that, I'd say you're finished base if you can't push hard enough.

You may want to try varying the number of rest days.

e.g.
Week1 = 2 days off
Week2 & 3 = 1 day off
Week4 = 3 days off (including 1 on the saddle)

That is just an example, of course, not a prescription.

You may want to try varying the number of rest days.

e.g.
Week1 = 2 days off
Week2 & 3 = 1 day off
Week4 = 3 days off (including 1 on the saddle)

That is just an example, of course, not a prescription.

whoawhoa said:

I'm starting to think I take too many recovery days (typically 2 per week, monday=off, friday=1 hr easy). Today, normally an easy spin, I did 2x20's at a solid speed on the trainer (compared to other sessions) with low PE (I think my PE monitor is broken). Are there any adaptations that happen over the course of a recovery day? Is there any reason to take on other than if it's needed to train properly for the next few days?

Alternately, maybe I should take RDO's stance, and say that 2x20's ARE a rest day!😄

I understand you are a youngun like me (im 15). At our age a hard intense 400km week working on intervals, TT's, climbing, racing etc with one day of easy spinning for an hour is perfect...admittedly I do more :p cant help it.
remember to spin little gears inbetween your efforts.

I have been given advice by a very knowledgeable professional local rider- He says 400-500 a week...2 really hard days (races, climbing circuit), 2 long days, 1 day of sprints or skills (velodrome racing plus some intervals?), 1 day of active recovery and one rest day. Follow this and you should be going well...what most pro riders do is have 2, 3 sometimes 4 really hard weeks of say 1000km's (in our case 450-500) followed by a rest week which might be 500km's (in our case 250-300).

Remember to eat well, train hard, smart and keep spinning. Most of all REST! you will need your energy if you intend to ride hard which I am sure you do.

whoawhoa said:

I'm starting to think I take too many recovery days (typically 2 per week, monday=off, friday=1 hr easy). Today, normally an easy spin, I did 2x20's at a solid speed on the trainer (compared to other sessions) with low PE (I think my PE monitor is broken). Are there any adaptations that happen over the course of a recovery day? Is there any reason to take on other than if it's needed to train properly for the next few days?

Alternately, maybe I should take RDO's stance, and say that 2x20's ARE a rest day!😄

I understand you are a youngun like me (im 15). At our age a hard intense 400km week working on intervals, TT's, climbing, racing etc with one day of easy spinning for an hour is perfect...admittedly I do more :p cant help it.
remember to spin little gears inbetween your efforts.

I have been given advice by a very knowledgeable professional local rider- He says 400-500 a week...2 really hard days (races, climbing circuit), 2 long days, 1 day of sprints or skills (velodrome racing plus some intervals?), 1 day of active recovery and one rest day. Follow this and you should be going well...what most pro riders do is have 2, 3 sometimes 4 really hard weeks of say 1000km's (in our case 450-500) followed by a rest week which might be 500km's (in our case 250-300).

Remember to eat well, train hard, smart and keep spinning. Most of all REST! you will need your energy if you intend to ride hard which I am sure you do.

whoawhoa said:

I'm starting to think I take too many recovery days (typically 2 per week, monday=off, friday=1 hr easy). Today, normally an easy spin, I did 2x20's at a solid speed on the trainer (compared to other sessions) with low PE (I think my PE monitor is broken). Are there any adaptations that happen over the course of a recovery day? Is there any reason to take on other than if it's needed to train properly for the next few days?

If you were managing your workload properly, I'd say it's possible to train without any rest days. OTOH, if you were managing your workload properly, why wouldn't you structure your workouts to allow yourself some rest days?

Are you thinking that the rest days are keeping you from getting enough workload? Or do you just dislike rest days in general, and would rather spread the load a little thinner?

If you believe the adaptation theories about super-compensation, then it's probably better to have harder workouts followed by rest days, than somewhat easier workouts every single day. I'd think the easier workouts wouldn't be enough to force the super-compensation, and also there's never enough recovery time for the body to overcompensate anyway.

whoawhoa said:

I'm starting to think I take too many recovery days (typically 2 per week, monday=off, friday=1 hr easy). Today, normally an easy spin, I did 2x20's at a solid speed on the trainer (compared to other sessions) with low PE (I think my PE monitor is broken). Are there any adaptations that happen over the course of a recovery day? Is there any reason to take on other than if it's needed to train properly for the next few days?

If you were managing your workload properly, I'd say it's possible to train without any rest days. OTOH, if you were managing your workload properly, why wouldn't you structure your workouts to allow yourself some rest days?

Are you thinking that the rest days are keeping you from getting enough workload? Or do you just dislike rest days in general, and would rather spread the load a little thinner?

If you believe the adaptation theories about super-compensation, then it's probably better to have harder workouts followed by rest days, than somewhat easier workouts every single day. I'd think the easier workouts wouldn't be enough to force the super-compensation, and also there's never enough recovery time for the body to overcompensate anyway.

I was wondering the same thing.

What about two long days- 3 to 4 hours(Tues or Wed + Sat.) coupled with two interval days- about 90 to 120 minutes long(not too sure if this should be Monday /Friday... or Thurs/Sunday) , then maybe 1 day super easy 30-45 minute spin. Have 2 days completely off per week.

Would there be a physical adaptation to this program ? I'm reading Joe Friel's book right now.... but I'm in postulation mode right now...... and this seems to be the best use of my time / energy.

I was wondering the same thing.

What about two long days- 3 to 4 hours(Tues or Wed + Sat.) coupled with two interval days- about 90 to 120 minutes long(not too sure if this should be Monday /Friday... or Thurs/Sunday) , then maybe 1 day super easy 30-45 minute spin. Have 2 days completely off per week.

Would there be a physical adaptation to this program ? I'm reading Joe Friel's book right now.... but I'm in postulation mode right now...... and this seems to be the best use of my time / energy.

Adam-from-SLO said:

I was wondering the same thing.

What about two long days- 3 to 4 hours(Tues or Wed + Sat.) coupled with two interval days- about 90 to 120 minutes long(not too sure if this should be Monday /Friday... or Thurs/Sunday) , then maybe 1 day super easy 30-45 minute spin. Have 2 days completely off per week.

Would there be a physical adaptation to this program ? I'm reading Joe Friel's book right now.... but I'm in postulation mode right now...... and this seems to be the best use of my time / energy.

I'm okay with Friel's macro planning, but not the weekly plans. Look at Lemond's weekly plans.

1) Do harder before easier, shorter before longer
2) Learn how to take a day off.
3) Split the week into a four and three (or three and four) day blocks.

Monday: off
Tuesday: Sprints
Wednesday: Hills/intervals
Thursday: Long endurance
Friday: active recovery or off
Saturday: Intervals (pre-race if racing Sunday, full interval set if training)
Sunday: Race or race effort (long and hard); Long endurance if in base phase

Wednesday and Saturday sessions can be split into two workouts per day. Harder and shorter in the morning, longer (threshold work) in the afternoon.

This way, you really shouldn't have to re-do base in the racing season (Friel) as you can cover your endurance every Thursday. cycle-smart.com has some good twists on Lemond's planning.

frenchyge said:

If you were managing your workload properly, I'd say it's possible to train without any rest days. OTOH, if you were managing your workload properly, why wouldn't you structure your workouts to allow yourself some rest days?

Kind of a "duh" moment for me. I think the best idea is to train normally tue/wed/thur/ and just see how I feel on friday. If i'm worked, just spin, if I'm not, go for a relatively easy interval session.

frenchyge said:

Are you thinking that the rest days are keeping you from getting enough workload? Or do you just dislike rest days in general, and would rather spread the load a little thinner?.

It depends. If I had not done a solid workout yesterday, I probably would not have gotten in enough workload.

frenchyge said:

If you believe the adaptation theories about super-compensation, then it's probably better to have harder workouts followed by rest days, than somewhat easier workouts every single day. I'd think the easier workouts wouldn't be enough to force the super-compensation, and also there's never enough recovery time for the body to overcompensate anyway.

I believe supercompensation, but doubt it happens on that short a time frame. I've never seen anything to indicate that you could adapt to stress in a day.

"A training program must be designed in consideration of the age of the participant." (Bompa 1999)

whoawhoa said:

Kind of a "duh" moment for me. I think the best idea is to train normally tue/wed/thur/ and just see how I feel on friday. If i'm worked, just spin, if I'm not, go for a relatively easy interval session.

Sounds pretty good. Fridays "on" or "off" depending on how you feel.

Planning of the overall weekly stress can also be dependant on the racing schedule.

Rest days, are training componments, just like any others. Better understanding of their impact on YOU, should lead to a better level of preparation for your events.

Those who can't plan rest days properly (weeks in advance), can't plan a decent taper.

whoawhoa said:

I believe supercompensation, but doubt it happens on that short a time frame. I've never seen anything to indicate that you could adapt to stress in a day.

I tend to agree, especially if you have accumulated a significant level of fatigue.

That would be a good reason plan in advance, instead of deciding on a day-to-day basis.

All that being said, I am not against your approach, which seems to be similar to Spunout approach (and this guy knows the business).

whoawhoa said:

Alternately, maybe I should take RDO's stance, and say that 2x20's ARE a rest day!😄

Good one. I like it. I actually have come around to view rest days as a plus following workouts over a certain stress level (TSS). IIRC, you don't have a PM or CP yet, but you can run the numbers manually if you want (actually, you could use the CP workout file maker utility I wrote to do this). FYI, a 1hr ride at FT results in a TSS of 100 points. I have found that a TSS of ~150-200 points is the line of demarcation for me. Below 150 TSS points, I don't feel I need a day off. Above 200 TSS points, I definitely feel I benefit from a day off. Between 150-200 TSS points is sort of a gray area. Since the physiological benefit of a workout occurs after the workout and not during the workout, a rest day can be important to reap the benefits of a hard workout, IMO.

RapDaddyo said:

FYI, a 1hr ride at FT results in a TSS of 100 points. I have found that a TSS of ~150-200 points is the line of demarcation for me. Below 150 TSS points, I don't feel I need a day off. Above 200 TSS points, I definitely feel I benefit from a day off. Between 150-200 TSS points is sort of a gray area. .

How many days off do you typically take?

SolarEnergy said:

How many days off do you typically take?

I take 2-3 depending on how hard my weekend rides were. My schedule is one of the following: MWFSS or TuThSS. I look at my TSS numbers from the weekend rides (usually I look at the combined total as I'm not too interested in each ride but rather the combined intensity of my weekend rides). I use a rough rule of thumb of 500 TSS points: <500, I will ride MWF; >500, I will ride TuTh. My weekday rides are almost always >200 TSS points and I go a little harder if I do only two vs. three (same distance but higher IF). Basically, I use TSS to guide me in taking days off and managing stress in general. I ride better with a day off -- feel better and have a little more snap.

RapDaddyo said:

I take 2-3 depending on how hard my weekend rides were. My schedule is one of the following: MWFSS or TuThSS. I look at my TSS numbers from the weekend rides (usually I look at the combined total as I'm not too interested in each ride but rather the combined intensity of my weekend rides). I use a rough rule of thumb of 500 TSS points: <500, I will ride MWF; >500, I will ride TuTh. My weekday rides are almost always >200 TSS points and I go a little harder if I do only two vs. three (same distance but higher IF). Basically, I use TSS to guide me in taking days off and managing stress in general. I ride better with a day off -- feel better and have a little more snap.

That sounds excellent.

I like to see that you're basing your judgement on accumulation of two days. And I also like that you take 2-3 days.

Bigger overloads, call for more rest. Fixed number of rest days per week? Throughout the year? hmmm well I don't know. Bigger weeks, should be followed by easier weeks.

The concentration of TSS during weekends is consistant with race requirement.

But when you have a race on sunday, how does saturday look like?

whoawhoa said:

I believe supercompensation, but doubt it happens on that short a time frame. I've never seen anything to indicate that you could adapt to stress in a day.

I'm not sure of the timeframe either. I just know that I feel much stronger after a day off than after a work day. Maybe that's supercompensation at work or maybe it's just mental freshness. I don't know.