Abus Granite 54 lock problem

On 17/10/04 9:01 am, in article [email hidden],

David Hansen said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Let me be blunt. Get some who understands electrical installations
to do the wiring.

That wouldn't include many of the electricians that I've had the
misfortune to encounter so far.

Did I mention electricians?

We had interesting experiences with electricians wiring up our machine room.
The spec was fine, as was the major cabling into the room. The local
circuits were installed by a not particularly talented apprentice.

...d

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 09:46:49 +0100 someone who may be David Martin
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

It was mostly the bits about load for given cable widths,

Diameters. Many people wonder why electric cables are not marked
with a current carrying capacity. The reason is that the answer to
the question, "what current can this cable safely carry?" is, "it
depends."

Note that an accurate calculation will often sometimes allow one to
safely employ smaller cable sizes than the usual rules of thumb. A
rule of thumb is to use 1.5mm cable for short runs to immersion
heaters and 2.5mm for longer runs. I once used 1.0mm cable. After
doing all the calculations and planning a route that avoided other
cables it was clear that such a small cable could be safely used.
Had the run been longer it could not be used. As expected the cable
warmed up in use, but this was well within safe limits. More of a
problem are those who use the rules of thumb without checking them
with calculations. I have seen ring mains wired in 2.5mm cable in
locations where I suspect 4mm cable was necessary because of the
route taken by the cables through insulation. I suspect in many
cases thermal insulation is just installed, without considering
whether it will affect the electrical system.

The heat that can be allowed to be given off varies depending on the
construction of the cable and insulation, where it is mounted and
what external influences it suffers from (such as strong sunlight).
A suitable cable mounted out of reach on suitable mountings can be
allowed to run far hotter than one people can touch. It can also be
allowed to reach a far higher temperature if there is a fault.

Quoted message said:

how many wires can
go in what kind of conduit etc for heat loss to be effective.

That is generally more of a consideration for large scale wiring.
However, in a house cables are often bunched when they approach the
consumer unit. It is wise to consider this bunching and take
appropriate precautions.

Quoted message said:

Stuff that had
never really crossed my mind. (Not that running a cable to the garage
required such considerations..

You need to consider many things for such an installation. Does the
sun shine on the cable? Is the route above or below ground? What is
the design load? Voltage drop. Disconnection times. Protection of
the cable.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

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On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 09:49:41 +0100 someone who may be David Martin
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

We had interesting experiences with electricians wiring up our machine room.
The spec was fine, as was the major cabling into the room. The local
circuits were installed by a not particularly talented apprentice.

I once had to get very shirty with a bod who was sent by Scottish
Power to replace the meter in our office. It is now wired up
properly, unlike the dangerous way he intended to do it.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

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Tony Raven [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

From the end of the year it will be illegal to DIY with electrics in
the home. If you want to do it yourself you have to have started the
work before Jan 1 which you will be allowed to complete. Otherwise its
call in a qualified electrician to do it.

http://www.niceic.org.uk/partp/newsitem_sept0704.htm

That's quite scary. Given that the NICEIC appears to be a umbrella
organisation for electricions I can't help but feel an alternative aim
is present! :-)

And from examples I've seen in the past, being a member of the NICEIC
does not make you a competent person at all.

Jon

David Hansen [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Did I mention electricians?

According to Tony's post you may have no choice! Although as far as I
can tell, you could carry out the work yourself but would have to get
the council to come in and inspect it so that a certificate could be
issued. That's not actually that bad really, as long as they don't
charge for the service!

Jon

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 11:54:55 +0100 someone who may be Jon Senior
<jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.niceic.org.uk/partp/newsitem_sept0704.htm

That's quite scary. Given that the NICEIC appears to be a umbrella
organisation for electricions I can't help but feel an alternative aim
is present! :-)

And from examples I've seen in the past, being a member of the NICEIC
does not make you a competent person at all.

The article says that England and Wales are being brought into line
with the position in Scotland for at least the past twenty years.
The authors have put their spin on it of course. I have no idea what
the position now is in Northern Ireland.

The key part of the article is this. "The electrical safety law will
be included in the Building Regulations for England and Wales, and
requires any persons carrying out work on fixed electrical
installations in the home - such as sockets, switches, fuse boxes
and ceiling fittings - to follow the fundamental principles of BS
7671, the British Standard for electrical installations." That is
already the position in Scotland and I have always thought it was
long overdue down south.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

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On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 08:47:40 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

From the end of the year it will be illegal to DIY with electrics in
the home. If you want to do it yourself you have to have started the
work before Jan 1 which you will be allowed to complete. Otherwise its
call in a qualified electrician to do it.
http://www.niceic.org.uk/partp/newsitem_sept0704.htm

NICEIC, AKA the Provisional IEE :-)

Well, that's one interpretation of "competent person" I suppose. I
count myself as a competent person, as a graduate electrical engineer,
member of the IEE, son of a former electrician and lecturer on
electrical technology, and of course having worked on house wiring
from the age of about twelve.

The only things I don't do around the house are gas and bricklaying,
the former because of the risk and the latter because my neighbour is
the chair of the local Federation of Master Builders and is so very
much better at it than I am :-)

This is starting to feel like the Shed again...

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

On 17/10/04 10:57 am, in article [email hidden],

David Hansen said:

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 09:46:49 +0100 someone who may be David Martin
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

It was mostly the bits about load for given cable widths,

Diameters. Many people wonder why electric cables are not marked
with a current carrying capacity. The reason is that the answer to
the question, "what current can this cable safely carry?" is, "it
depends."

Note that an accurate calculation will often sometimes allow one to
safely employ smaller cable sizes than the usual rules of thumb. A
rule of thumb is to use 1.5mm cable for short runs to immersion
heaters and 2.5mm for longer runs. I once used 1.0mm cable. After
doing all the calculations and planning a route that avoided other
cables it was clear that such a small cable could be safely used.
Had the run been longer it could not be used. As expected the cable
warmed up in use, but this was well within safe limits. More of a
problem are those who use the rules of thumb without checking them
with calculations. I have seen ring mains wired in 2.5mm cable in
locations where I suspect 4mm cable was necessary because of the
route taken by the cables through insulation. I suspect in many
cases thermal insulation is just installed, without considering
whether it will affect the electrical system.

The heat that can be allowed to be given off varies depending on the
construction of the cable and insulation, where it is mounted and
what external influences it suffers from (such as strong sunlight).
A suitable cable mounted out of reach on suitable mountings can be
allowed to run far hotter than one people can touch. It can also be
allowed to reach a far higher temperature if there is a fault.

Quoted message said:

how many wires can
go in what kind of conduit etc for heat loss to be effective.

That is generally more of a consideration for large scale wiring.
However, in a house cables are often bunched when they approach the
consumer unit. It is wise to consider this bunching and take
appropriate precautions.

Quoted message said:

Stuff that had
never really crossed my mind. (Not that running a cable to the garage
required such considerations..

You need to consider many things for such an installation. Does the
sun shine on the cable? Is the route above or below ground? What is
the design load? Voltage drop. Disconnection times. Protection of
the cable.

In this case it was about 15m underground in an armoured cable that was
rated for twice the maximum current at the consumer unit. Having read the
book, a safe rule of thumb was that twice the estimated capacity is a good
rule of thumb for embedded single cables.

...d

Just zis Guy said:

Well, that's one interpretation of "competent person" I suppose. I
count myself as a competent person, as a graduate electrical engineer,
member of the IEE, son of a former electrician and lecturer on
electrical technology, and of course having worked on house wiring
from the age of about twelve.

You may do but look into it and you will find you do not qualify.
Neither it seems does a member of the IEE which is causing some
consternation amongst their membership.

Need for a new newsgroup soon uk.rec.sheds.unwired?

Tony

On 17/10/04 1:27 pm, in article [email hidden],

Just zis Guy said:

The only things I don't do around the house are gas and bricklaying,
the former because of the risk and the latter because my neighbour is
the chair of the local Federation of Master Builders and is so very
much better at it than I am :-)

My neighbour builds roads.. I have done gas. And then had the pipework
inspected by a chartered gas engineer (My late father in law who used to be
a research scientist designing and managing gas pipework.)

My brother is in the IEE and another Electrical Engineering graduate from
Soton.
My other brother cuts people up for a living.
My father is a welding engineer/metallurgist. He's promised to teach me to
braze this winter when he visits so I can bodge some frames.

...d

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 13:33:46 +0100, David Martin
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Having read the
book, a safe rule of thumb was that twice the estimated capacity is a good
rule of thumb for embedded single cables.

Not least because you can change your mind later without having to dig
a 15m deep trench :-)

Or maybe it was 1.5m? My SWA cable to the end of the garden is four
and a half metric feet down.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 13:40:01 +0100, David Martin
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

My brother is in the IEE and another Electrical Engineering graduate from
Soton.

There's a lot of us about :-)

Quoted message said:

My father is a welding engineer/metallurgist. He's promised to teach me to
braze this winter when he visits so I can bodge some frames.

Brazing is childs play of you can solder. Welding, OTOH, is a skill
which has always eluded me. Especially the use of "electric glue", in
my experience a system for making large holes with bits of welding rod
attached to the edges :-/

I did once write a prototype of a computer program for welding
stainless steel steam pipes together in nuclear power stations.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Just zis Guy, you know? [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Brazing is childs play of you can solder. Welding, OTOH, is a skill
which has always eluded me. Especially the use of "electric glue", in
my experience a system for making large holes with bits of welding rod
attached to the edges :-/

You've seen my early attempts then? I thought I'd kept those photos off
the net! :-)

The downside to brazing is the equipment costs and getting into the
world of bottle rental (If you want to play properly!). For about £50
you can get a reasonable stick welder that'll cover you down to 1mm
walls. Perfectly servicable for bodging gas-pipe frames together.

Jon

On 17/10/04 2:08 pm, in article [email hidden],

Just zis Guy said:

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 13:33:46 +0100, David Martin
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Having read the
book, a safe rule of thumb was that twice the estimated capacity is a good
rule of thumb for embedded single cables.

Not least because you can change your mind later without having to dig
a 15m deep trench :-)

Or maybe it was 1.5m? My SWA cable to the end of the garden is four
and a half metric feet down.

That would put mine in bedrock. It was entertaining watching Transco laying
the new gas pipe. It had to be more than xx down and that involved a lot of
swearing and moving some Very Big Rocks (tm).

The garage cable is only a spit and a cough (with a cough being half a spit)
down but is under lots of Small Rocks along with the telewest cable (which
was almost surface mounted cos of said rocks and telewest not being too
concerned about leaking bytes into the environment.)

...d

On 17/10/04 3:24 pm, in article [email hidden],

Jon Senior' jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

Just zis Guy, you know? [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Brazing is childs play of you can solder. Welding, OTOH, is a skill
which has always eluded me. Especially the use of "electric glue", in
my experience a system for making large holes with bits of welding rod
attached to the edges :-/

You've seen my early attempts then? I thought I'd kept those photos off
the net! :-)

The downside to brazing is the equipment costs and getting into the
world of bottle rental (If you want to play properly!). For about £50
you can get a reasonable stick welder that'll cover you down to 1mm
walls. Perfectly servicable for bodging gas-pipe frames together.

1mm walls and successful stick welding requires a degree of skill that is
found only after peering through many holes with bits of rod welded to them
;-) I have a little MIG welder which is OK on 1mm box though it still makes
holes when not used with care.

Brazing gear isn't so much more expensive. A set of hoses and a torch which
can be fitted to disposable cartridges is under 80 quid.

And it is a lot easier to use. And handy for lighting barbecues.

...d

On 17/10/04 3:24 pm, in article [email hidden],

Jon Senior' jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

Just zis Guy, you know? [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Brazing is childs play of you can solder. Welding, OTOH, is a skill
which has always eluded me. Especially the use of "electric glue", in
my experience a system for making large holes with bits of welding rod
attached to the edges :-/

You've seen my early attempts then? I thought I'd kept those photos off
the net! :-)

I managed to acquire part 2 of my next project. I now have two dono Hi-ten
MTB frames and a spare for parts (cross brace etc.) Some time soon these
will be turned into the frankentandem.

I now have to strip down the frames so I can fit them into the garage and
get it all sorted ready for action..

I have the kiddycranks ready to go and at least one willing volunteer
(unless the letters K, M and X rear their ugly head!).

Quick Q. Obviously the tandem will have an MTB angle head tube. What are the
normal dimensions/trail for a tandem head tube? Will the frankenbike be
unrideable?

...d

David Martin [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

1mm walls and successful stick welding requires a degree of skill that is
found only after peering through many holes with bits of rod welded to them
;-) I have a little MIG welder which is OK on 1mm box though it still makes
holes when not used with care.

I was planning on buying a MIG, but everyone I spoke to said I would be
better practising more with stick welder and buying a TIG inverter to
use for stick welding.

I believe the general problem is that a MIG bead tends to always look
good, regardless of the quality of the underlying weld. With stick
welding you do get practice at manipulating the weld puddle and thus
have a far better idea of what is going on.

Quoted message said:

Brazing gear isn't so much more expensive. A set of hoses and a torch which
can be fitted to disposable cartridges is under 80 quid.

I'd heard mixed reviews about the disposable cartridge systems in terms
of not being able to get them hot enough. It is food for thought though.

Quoted message said:

And it is a lot easier to use. And handy for lighting barbecues.

Ever seen the liquid Oxygen barbeque lighting technique? That wins hands
down!

Jon

On 17/10/04 5:23 pm, in article [email hidden],

Jon Senior' jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

Quoted message said:

Brazing gear isn't so much more expensive. A set of hoses and a torch which
can be fitted to disposable cartridges is under 80 quid.

I'd heard mixed reviews about the disposable cartridge systems in terms
of not being able to get them hot enough. It is food for thought though.

how hot do you need? If you are silver brazing it should be more than
adequate.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And it is a lot easier to use. And handy for lighting barbecues.

Ever seen the liquid Oxygen barbeque lighting technique? That wins hands
down!

I've done the oxygen cylinder version (0-furnace in 10 seconds) but never
the liquid oxygen one..

...d

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 15:28:13 +0100 someone who may be David Martin
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

The garage cable is only a spit and a cough (with a cough being half a spit)
down but is under lots of Small Rocks along with the telewest cable (which
was almost surface mounted cos of said rocks and telewest not being too
concerned about leaking bytes into the environment.)

That may not be in conformance with BS7671, which from memory talks
about cables being deep enough not to be disturbed by normal
activities above. In the case of my shed that means being below the
level a lawn spike reaches into the ground. Were it to run under a
flower/vegetable patch it would have to be deeper, to escape double
digging.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

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On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 18:28:02 +0100, David Hansen
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

That may not be in conformance with BS7671, which from memory talks
about cables being deep enough not to be disturbed by normal
activities above.

I did blag some of that yellow tape from the bloke over the road who
works for the electrickery board :-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University