A Lesson from Florida: It's Time for Regime Change!



On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 19:12:57 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
<[email protected]> wrote:

..On 25 Sep 2004 11:05:25 -0700, [email protected] (**** Durbin) wrote in
..message <[email protected]>:
..
..>> There are animals that TOLERATE the presence of humans, but most don't.
..>Those are the ones that will flourish...
..
..Missed your opportunity ;-)
..
..There are newsgroups that TOLERATE the presence of Vandemann, but most
..don't.

Then why haven't you gone away, liar?

..alt.troll being the obvious exception.
..
..Guy

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 02:51:56 GMT, Scott Burley <[email protected]> wrote:

..On 25 Sep 2004, Mike Vandeman offered up this insight:
..
..> .> I guess I was wrong about that (a first). I had heard long ago from
..> a .> biologist
..> .> that only alligators are native to the U.S.
..> .
..> .Which leads one to wonder, just how much of your research and
..> conclusions .are colored by such mistakes.
..>
..> No one has yet found a single error. You don't get a Ph.D. by making
..> mistakes.
..
..Mike, you've been refuted on this before. You HAVE to make mistakes to get
..a Ph.D. It's REQUIRED. It's how people learn.

No, only the slow ones learn that way. You obviously haven't learned that yet,
proving that you are one of the slow ones.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 07:42:35 -0700, Benjamin Flogged Daley
<[email protected]> wrote:

..On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 03:07:52 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
..>I wasn't aware that riding a bike is illegal before 5 am.
..
..
..It's nice to see that Mike agreed with everything else I wrote.
..
..Why I won't ride a bike that early? I don't want to be hit again. I'm
..still suffered from the effects of a car vs bike (me) accident. The Dr
..goes into my shoulder about every 4 years to clean it up-all related
..to the accident.

You should have used the Vandeman riding method. WOBBLE! It scares the bejeebers
out of the drivers, making them slow down.

..Ben Flogged Daley
..
[email protected]

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 07:42:35 -0700, Benjamin Flogged Daley
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> .On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 03:07:52 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
> .>I wasn't aware that riding a bike is illegal before 5 am.
> .
> .
> .It's nice to see that Mike agreed with everything else I wrote.
> .
> .Why I won't ride a bike that early? I don't want to be hit again. I'm
> .still suffered from the effects of a car vs bike (me) accident. The Dr
> .goes into my shoulder about every 4 years to clean it up-all related
> .to the accident.
>
> You should have used the Vandeman riding method. WOBBLE! It scares the
> bejeebers
> out of the drivers, making them slow down.
>
> .Ben Flogged Daley
> .
> [email protected]
>
> ===
> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 25 Sep 2004 11:05:25 -0700, [email protected] (**** Durbin) wrote:
>
> .Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> .> There are animals that TOLERATE the presence of humans, but most don't.
> .
> .Those are the ones that will flourish. The ones who can't tolerate
> .human presence or adapt to tolerate it will retreat to areas where
> .they can survive.
>
> What an idiot.

Insults add nothing useful to the discussion.

> There are no such areas left, since humans have commandeered every square
> inch of the Earth.

While man may be able to visit every square inch on Earth, he does not
choose to inhabit it.

> It is our moral obligation to make sure they have areas where they can
> survive -- namely, human-free areas. That is required by teh ESA.

By "human-free areas" do you mean areas where humans may not visit?

> What is critical is that those enclaves be
> .protected an be large enough to ensure sufficient population to
> .maintain genetic diversity or that the enclaves be connected to allow
> .interbreeding between the groups.
>
> Where are they? We have monopolized every area.

Since I am using Florida as an example, Big Cypress National Preserve
and Everglades National Park.

> .The question is how do we retrofit land ownership in America to
> .accomplish that? Let me give you a hypothical scenario. South
> .Florida has pockets of land that have a few Florida Panthers on them.
> .These areas are separated by orange groves or sugar cane fields.
> .
> .Ideally, we would like to see these enclaves interconnected to prevent
> .inbreeding by the limited number of panthers that remain, but the
> .farmers are not willing to give up their land for an animal they have
> .never seen except in a zoo. How do we convince them that the land
> .should be set aside for the welfare of the animals?
>
> We don't have to convince them. Eminent domain will take care of that. We do > it for other government priorities.

Has eminent domain ever been enforced to protect the future of an
endangered species?

**** Durbin
 
"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> .Mike, you've been refuted on this before. You HAVE to make mistakes to
get
> .a Ph.D. It's REQUIRED. It's how people learn.
>
> No, only the slow ones learn that way. You obviously haven't learned that
yet,
> proving that you are one of the slow ones.
>

You are the one that doesn't know what Day Use means. Obvioulsy you have
made errors, and probably many of them. By this measure - mistakes are
chances for learning - your PhD speaks volumes on your error rate.
 
On 26 Sep 2004, Mike Vandeman offered up this insight:

> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 02:51:56 GMT, Scott Burley <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> .On 25 Sep 2004, Mike Vandeman offered up this insight:
> .
> .> .> I guess I was wrong about that (a first). I had heard long ago
> from .> a .> biologist
> .> .> that only alligators are native to the U.S.
> .> .
> .> .Which leads one to wonder, just how much of your research and
> .> conclusions .are colored by such mistakes.
> .>
> .> No one has yet found a single error. You don't get a Ph.D. by
> making .> mistakes.
> .
> .Mike, you've been refuted on this before. You HAVE to make mistakes
> to get .a Ph.D. It's REQUIRED. It's how people learn.
>
> No, only the slow ones learn that way. You obviously haven't learned
> that yet, proving that you are one of the slow ones.

Mike, when will you realize that circular arguements mean absolutely
nothing?

--
__ __ _ ___ ___
/ _|/ _/ |_ _|_ _|
\_ ( (( o | | | |
|__/\__\_/|_| |_|

[email protected]
 
On 26 Sep 2004, Mike Vandeman offered up this insight:

> On 25 Sep 2004 11:05:25 -0700, [email protected] (**** Durbin) wrote:
>
> .Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>... .> There are
> animals that TOLERATE the presence of humans, but most don't. .
> .Those are the ones that will flourish. The ones who can't tolerate
> .human presence or adapt to tolerate it will retreat to areas where
> .they can survive.
>
> What an idiot. There are no such areas left, since humans have
> commandeered every square inch of the Earth. It is our moral
> obligation to make sure they have areas where they can survive --
> namely, human-free areas. That is required by teh ESA.

So, since there are no areas where animals can survive, what the hell keeps
eating my bushes at night?

> What is critical is that those enclaves be
> .protected an be large enough to ensure sufficient population to
> .maintain genetic diversity or that the enclaves be connected to allow
> .interbreeding between the groups.
>
> Where are they? We have monopolized every area.

Mike, have you ever actually been in a wilderness area? There are no
shopping malls or parking lots. There might be a narrow dirt trail, if
you're lucky. Sometimes you have to rely on cairns for navigation, if
they're still there. That's not monopolization.

> .The question is how do we retrofit land ownership in America to
> .accomplish that? Let me give you a hypothical scenario. South
> .Florida has pockets of land that have a few Florida Panthers on them.
> .These areas are separated by orange groves or sugar cane fields.
> .
> .Ideally, we would like to see these enclaves interconnected to
> prevent .inbreeding by the limited number of panthers that remain, but
> the .farmers are not willing to give up their land for an animal they
> have .never seen except in a zoo. How do we convince them that the
> land .should be set aside for the welfare of the animals?
>
> We don't have to convince them. Eminent domain will take care of that.
> We do it for other government priorities.

I see, kick them out, and if anyone refuses to leave, put a gun to his
head. Violence solves everything.

> Big Sugar has
> .never been exactly altruistic when it comes to the environment.

--
__ __ _ ___ ___
/ _|/ _/ |_ _|_ _|
\_ ( (( o | | | |
|__/\__\_/|_| |_|

[email protected]
 
"Scott Burley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> So, since there are no areas where animals can survive, what the hell keeps
> eating my bushes at night?

ARKchyxx.

> I see, kick them out, and if anyone refuses to leave, put a gun to his
> head. Violence solves everything.

That's what ARK would recommend.
--
"You are the most stupid asshole I have yet encountered on this newsgroup.
Congratulations. That is no small achievement as there are many other
stupid assholes on this newsgroup. But they can't hold a candle to you."
- Ed Dolan in alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
 
Were you able so sue for any money?


"Benjamin Flogged Daley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 03:07:52 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
> >I wasn't aware that riding a bike is illegal before 5 am.
>
>
> It's nice to see that Mike agreed with everything else I wrote.
>
> Why I won't ride a bike that early? I don't want to be hit again. I'm
> still suffered from the effects of a car vs bike (me) accident. The Dr
> goes into my shoulder about every 4 years to clean it up-all related
> to the accident.
>
> Ben Flogged Daley
>
> [email protected]
 
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:13:11 -0400, "v-man" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Were you able so sue for any money?

No. My friend , who was riding with me, was a o/d sherriff and had
called local PD with the information (It was hit and run). Guy had no
insurance and no job. Nothing to go after.

Ben Flogged Daley

[email protected]
 
*******. I ride daily and almost get hti all the time. Some douche in a Benz
SUV almost hit me last week. That would have been payday.

"Benjamin Flogged Daley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:13:11 -0400, "v-man" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Were you able so sue for any money?
>
> No. My friend , who was riding with me, was a o/d sherriff and had
> called local PD with the information (It was hit and run). Guy had no
> insurance and no job. Nothing to go after.
>
> Ben Flogged Daley
>
> [email protected]
 
"v-man" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> *******. I ride daily and almost get hti all the time. Some douche in a
Benz
> SUV almost hit me last week. That would have been payday.

Maybe the problem is not *always* the drivers. I ride all the time too, and
I rarely "almost get hit all the time."
Often I see riders who invite close calls, and "almost getting hit".

Pete
 
"Pete" <ptr@ThievingBastardsWorkAt_usaf.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "v-man" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > *******. I ride daily and almost get hti all the time. Some douche in a
> Benz
> > SUV almost hit me last week. That would have been payday.
>
> Maybe the problem is not *always* the drivers. I ride all the time too,
and
> I rarely "almost get hit all the time."
> Often I see riders who invite close calls, and "almost getting hit".
>
> Pete
>
>

Try riding through Clifton, Passaic, or Paterson, NJ the 2nd most populuous
city in the nation. 150,000 people in 8 square miles with a very high crime
rate and terrible drivers. The people in that area do not respect bicycle
riders as the often show by throwing bottles and other objects out the
window at them.
Between the bad drivers and restless minorities every ride feels like a
mission.
 
"v-man" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> Try riding through Clifton, Passaic, or Paterson, NJ the 2nd most
populuous
> city in the nation. 150,000 people in 8 square miles with a very high
crime
> rate and terrible drivers. The people in that area do not respect bicycle
> riders as the often show by throwing bottles and other objects out the
> window at them.
> Between the bad drivers and restless minorities every ride feels like a
> mission.

I see this sentiment about pretty much every city that gets mentioned in
here.
"It's so much worse here than anywhere else"

People have said that about Boston, Wash DC, Madrid, Atlanta, Dallas, NYC...
They *all* can't be worse than everywhere else...:)

I have yet to find a city I can't ride in. And I've ridden in a lot of them.

Pete
 
"Pete" <ptr@ThievingBastardsWorkAt_usaf.com> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
>
> "v-man" <[email protected]> wrote
> >
> > Try riding through Clifton, Passaic, or Paterson, NJ the 2nd most
> populuous
> > city in the nation. 150,000 people in 8 square miles with a very high
> crime
> > rate and terrible drivers. The people in that area do not respect
bicycle
> > riders as the often show by throwing bottles and other objects out the
> > window at them.
> > Between the bad drivers and restless minorities every ride feels like a
> > mission.
>
> I see this sentiment about pretty much every city that gets mentioned in
> here.
> "It's so much worse here than anywhere else"
>
> People have said that about Boston, Wash DC, Madrid, Atlanta, Dallas,
NYC...
> They *all* can't be worse than everywhere else...:)
>
> I have yet to find a city I can't ride in. And I've ridden in a lot of
them.
>
> Pete
>
>

I'm not saying the city is unridable or that it is the worst. Just
clarifying why I have had close calls to getting hit by cars. It is however
unpleasant but necessary since I need to be able to get around daily without
a car.
 
On 27 Sep 2004 05:35:20 -0700, [email protected] (**** Durbin) wrote:

..Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
..> On 25 Sep 2004 11:05:25 -0700, [email protected] (**** Durbin) wrote:
..>
..> .Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
..> .> There are animals that TOLERATE the presence of humans, but most don't.
..> .
..> .Those are the ones that will flourish. The ones who can't tolerate
..> .human presence or adapt to tolerate it will retreat to areas where
..> .they can survive.
..>
..> What an idiot.
..
..Insults add nothing useful to the discussion.

I know mountain bikers think TELLING THE TRUTH is not important.

..> There are no such areas left, since humans have commandeered every square
..> inch of the Earth.
..
..While man may be able to visit every square inch on Earth, he does not
..choose to inhabit it.

So what? Visiting it drives the wildlife out.

..> It is our moral obligation to make sure they have areas where they can
..> survive -- namely, human-free areas. That is required by teh ESA.
..
..By "human-free areas" do you mean areas where humans may not visit?

Yes.

..> What is critical is that those enclaves be
..> .protected an be large enough to ensure sufficient population to
..> .maintain genetic diversity or that the enclaves be connected to allow
..> .interbreeding between the groups.
..>
..> Where are they? We have monopolized every area.
..
..Since I am using Florida as an example, Big Cypress National Preserve
..and Everglades National Park.

NO ONE is allowed to go there? I doubt it. Biologists and land managers are
always allowed.

..> .The question is how do we retrofit land ownership in America to
..> .accomplish that? Let me give you a hypothical scenario. South
..> .Florida has pockets of land that have a few Florida Panthers on them.
..> .These areas are separated by orange groves or sugar cane fields.
..> .
..> .Ideally, we would like to see these enclaves interconnected to prevent
..> .inbreeding by the limited number of panthers that remain, but the
..> .farmers are not willing to give up their land for an animal they have
..> .never seen except in a zoo. How do we convince them that the land
..> .should be set aside for the welfare of the animals?
..>
..> We don't have to convince them. Eminent domain will take care of that. We do > it for other government priorities.
..
..Has eminent domain ever been enforced to protect the future of an
..endangered species?

I don't know. I know it has been used to stop development.

..**** Durbin

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 00:45:41 GMT, Scott Burley <[email protected]> wrote:

..On 26 Sep 2004, Mike Vandeman offered up this insight:
..
..> On 25 Sep 2004 11:05:25 -0700, [email protected] (**** Durbin) wrote:
..>
..> .Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
..> news:<[email protected]>... .> There are
..> animals that TOLERATE the presence of humans, but most don't. .
..> .Those are the ones that will flourish. The ones who can't tolerate
..> .human presence or adapt to tolerate it will retreat to areas where
..> .they can survive.
..>
..> What an idiot. There are no such areas left, since humans have
..> commandeered every square inch of the Earth. It is our moral
..> obligation to make sure they have areas where they can survive --
..> namely, human-free areas. That is required by teh ESA.
..
..So, since there are no areas where animals can survive, what the hell keeps
..eating my bushes at night?

You are. It's obvious.

..> What is critical is that those enclaves be
..> .protected an be large enough to ensure sufficient population to
..> .maintain genetic diversity or that the enclaves be connected to allow
..> .interbreeding between the groups.
..>
..> Where are they? We have monopolized every area.
..
..Mike, have you ever actually been in a wilderness area? There are no
..shopping malls or parking lots. There might be a narrow dirt trail, if
..you're lucky. Sometimes you have to rely on cairns for navigation, if
..they're still there. That's not monopolization.

Yes, it is. None of it is off-limits to humans.

..> .The question is how do we retrofit land ownership in America to
..> .accomplish that? Let me give you a hypothical scenario. South
..> .Florida has pockets of land that have a few Florida Panthers on them.
..> .These areas are separated by orange groves or sugar cane fields.
..> .
..> .Ideally, we would like to see these enclaves interconnected to
..> prevent .inbreeding by the limited number of panthers that remain, but
..> the .farmers are not willing to give up their land for an animal they
..> have .never seen except in a zoo. How do we convince them that the
..> land .should be set aside for the welfare of the animals?
..>
..> We don't have to convince them. Eminent domain will take care of that.
..> We do it for other government priorities.
..
..I see, kick them out, and if anyone refuses to leave, put a gun to his
..head. Violence solves everything.

That's not violence, just law enforcement. As a mountain biker, you should know
about violence, especially to the land and wildlife.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:36:04 -0400, "v-man" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Pete" <ptr@ThievingBastardsWorkAt_usaf.com> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..>
..> "v-man" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..> news:[email protected]...
..> > *******. I ride daily and almost get hti all the time. Some douche in a
..> Benz
..> > SUV almost hit me last week. That would have been payday.
..>
..> Maybe the problem is not *always* the drivers. I ride all the time too,
..and
..> I rarely "almost get hit all the time."
..> Often I see riders who invite close calls, and "almost getting hit".
..>
..> Pete
..>
..>
..
..Try riding through Clifton, Passaic, or Paterson, NJ the 2nd most populuous
..city in the nation. 150,000 people in 8 square miles with a very high crime
..rate and terrible drivers. The people in that area do not respect bicycle
..riders as the often show by throwing bottles and other objects out the
..window at them.
..Between the bad drivers and restless minorities every ride feels like a
..mission.

There are some places that humans shouldn't live.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 07:16:23 GMT, "Rosco" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 07:42:35 -0700, Benjamin Flogged Daley
..> <[email protected]> wrote:
..>
..> .On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 03:07:52 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
..> .>I wasn't aware that riding a bike is illegal before 5 am.
..> .
..> .
..> .It's nice to see that Mike agreed with everything else I wrote.
..> .
..> .Why I won't ride a bike that early? I don't want to be hit again. I'm
..> .still suffered from the effects of a car vs bike (me) accident. The Dr
..> .goes into my shoulder about every 4 years to clean it up-all related
..> .to the accident.
..>
..> You should have used the Vandeman riding method. WOBBLE! It scares the
..> bejeebers
..> out of the drivers, making them slow down.

It's not illegal. In fact, it's recommended!

..> .Ben Flogged Daley
..> .
..> [email protected]
..>
..> ===
..> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
..> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..>
..> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
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