5 days off before marathon

the impact i would think is relative to the level of marathoner you are i would think...(first
timer, advanced, etc.).

keep in mind...and in context...you're only missing about 14 miles total over that 5 day
period...from your program...some shorter 4 miles runs. as long as you trained well beforehand...i
think the adverse impact is going to be minimal.

however i would suggest you do some aerobic/cardio stuff as a substitute to keep you on a training
edge. heck...i'm even considering taking 5 days off prior to my marathon and devoting that final
week to "spinning". Yup...i figure a week before my marathon...i'm going to be trained out and all i
am going to care about is peaking nutritionally, mentally, and being "fresh". Part of that is going
to be maintaining a exertion/exercise level and schedule as if I was running...but all on a spinning
cycle for that final week...all to make sure I have fresh and rested Knees, Ankles...etc...you
know..the pounding you take in a Marathon.

I say the 5 days off from running before M day can be an asset used properly. I just don't think
I'm going to gain any edge that last week....in running...it was the 20 weeks before that
counted more...

In article said:

the impact i would think is relative to the level of marathoner you are i would think...(first
timer, advanced, etc.).

keep in mind...and in context...you're only missing about 14 miles total over that 5 day
period...from your program...some shorter 4 miles runs. as long as you trained well beforehand...i
think the adverse impact is going to be minimal.

however i would suggest you do some aerobic/cardio stuff as a substitute to keep you on a training
edge. heck...i'm even considering taking 5 days off prior to my marathon and devoting that final
week to "spinning". Yup...i

I think you've got this back to front. Neuromuscular components of fitness detrain much faster than
your endurance base. So using spinning to preserve your endurance base while neglecting your running
economy (by taking a layoff from running) is maintaining precisely the fitness components that could
do without any training in the last 5 days.

That's why most periodisation plans often call for easy speed work (fartlek, short intervals) close
to races: they help maintain or even improve running economy without tiring you out.

I'd suggest a few rest days in the last week, with a couple of easy runs and some light fartlek.

Quoted message said:

figure a week before my marathon...i'm going to be trained out and all i am going to care about is
peaking nutritionally, mentally, and being "fresh".

Part of being "fresh" means not detraining neuromuscular aspects of fitness.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

[email hidden] (bigsky) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Do to a minor injury and perhaps some overtraining I am not running at all the five days prior to
Saturday's marathon. Anyone tried a similar taper and how was your performance on race day?

I didn't run for 2 whole weeks before Chicago last year - I did 18 miles 2 weeks prior and that was
it until the race. I did better than I expected at that race, but my expectations were pretty low. I
did MINIMAL training, but managed to jog the entire way. I can't see how it will hurt you to not run
5 days prior.

Linda

Well said by the others.

I've had people over the years take up to 2 or 3 weeks off before the marathon and finish.

In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
Clinic, est. 1975

Mindful Running: mindfulness.commr.aspOpen ↗ faqs.orgrunning faqOpen ↗

I just did a PubMed search on this subject, and although there were many interesting articles on the
cardiovascular effects of different sorts of tapering, there were none on the neuromuscular effects.
Cardiovascular effects of training-termination were seen about 2 weeks, and even these weren't that
significant.

Put it this way. I play guitar, and sometimes don't play a tune (or is that in tune) for several
weeks. When I do play it, I might feel a bit uncomfortable the first time, but the next time feels
like I never had the playing break. Running is a far less complicated task, and by walking around,
you are preserving a lot of the movements required when you run.

I'm no exercise physiologist, and I have never run a marathon, but my instinct tells me that a 5
day break, especially considering your injury, will do more good than harm. Even if you are a
but 'rusty' at the start, I'm sure you'll be comfortable by the end of the first mile - even if
this mile is a little slow, it'll have less detrimental effect that flare-up of an injury with
12miles to go.

Best, David

--
To email, remove SPAM.com and replace with wadham DOT oxford DOT ac DOT uk

In article said:

Good points Donovan....but I was talking about using spinning to rest the pounding on my
knees/ankels/feet for a 5 day period and maintain my endurance base.

I think a substantial reduction in milage would have much the same effect.

Quoted message said:

Are you saying experienced runners suffer "neuromuscular" detraining loss from 5 days of not
running?

I can't find a source on this, but I would say so. I think most experienced runners will be slower
after a one week layoff, unless they were fairly overtrained before that.

As a general rule, anaerobic fitness goes away pretty quickly. Have you ever come back to weights
after a layoff ? If you're a beginner, a 1 week layoff might even make you stronger, but after
you've lifted for a few years, what you find is that you need to learn to build up to a peak
performance, and if you rest just before you're peaking, you will lose that high point.

There was a study that showed that experienced runners detrain substantially over 12 days, but that
study used VO2Max as the metric.

Quoted message said:

I understand Golphers and Baseball Batters and things that require a precision in mechanics need
to do that endeavor daily to maintain that edge. But runners are not relying on physical
instruments (bats/ball/clubs, etc.) in the equation.

Running is still a precision activity. A 1% difference in running economy will reduce a 5k time by
10 seconds or a marathon time by a minute.

Quoted message said:

At what point in detraining does the fall start?...day 3?....

I think two consecutive rest days should have little or no detraining effect. That's just based on
my experience. No doubt you also have experience you can draw from on this matter.

As a general principle, I'd avoid doing too much in the way of experimentation prior to a marathon.
You can always use the local races to try new high-risk strategies, and use the most conservative
strategy possible for the marathon. And that strategy IMO involves a substantial reduction in milage
(but not a layoff), and more rest days than usual in the last week.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

In article said:

I just did a PubMed search on this subject, and although there were many interesting articles on
the cardiovascular effects of different sorts of tapering, there were none on the neuromuscular
effects. Cardiovascular effects of training-termination were seen about 2 weeks, and even these
weren't that significant.

An important point is that even a small percentage difference really is significant. A 1%
improvement in performance is 10 seconds off a 5k or 1 min off a marathon time. And experienced
runners like Andrew care about this.

According to this paper, you're talking detraining in the range of 5-15% with as little as 12 days
of inactivity.

216.239.41.104searchOpen ↗
economy+detrain+Noakes&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

5 days translates into 5 minutes in the marathon time, which could well make or break his
sub-3:10 wish..

THere was also a study that demonstrated substantial improvement in well trained 5k runners, when
they undertook a 9 week strength program that focused on running economy. The improvements were
monotonic and dramatic. There is a general principle that it takes substantially less time to
detrain than it does to train, so I'd bet on the benefits of that 9 week program evaporating in
about 2 weeks or so.

Quoted message said:

Put it this way. I play guitar, and sometimes don't play a tune (or is that in tune) for several
weeks. When I do play it, I might feel a bit uncomfortable the first time, but the next time feels
like I never had the playing break.

Yeah, but you're not going to notice a 1% drop in your guitar playing performance. Andrew is at a
level of training and ability where a 1% difference is substantial.

Quoted message said:

Running is a far less complicated task, and

Running is not simple at all. It takes us several years to develop reasonable running economy.
Children have terrible running economy, and there are studies that demonstrate this.

Quoted message said:

by walking around, you are preserving a lot of the movements required when you run.

Not true.

Quoted message said:

I'm no exercise physiologist, and I have never run a marathon, but my instinct tells me that a 5
day break, especially considering your injury,

Have you done a substantial amount of anaerobic training ? Once you hit your peak in terms of
conditioning, a 5 day layoff will not help.

Quoted message said:

will do more good than harm. Even if you are a but 'rusty' at the start, I'm sure you'll be
comfortable by the end of the first mile -

(1) how you "feel" is not relevant to my argument. You will "feel" just fine even if you are only 1%
slower. 99% is not good enough, even if it "feels OK" to you.

(2) if it were true that you needed the start of the race to recover your running economy, that
would be disasterous, because the last thing you want to do is burn more fuel at the start
of the race.

Quoted message said:

even if this mile is a little slow, it'll have less detrimental effect that flare-up of an injury
with 12miles to go.

It's too late for him to do anything about his so-called "injury". Taking a 5 day layoff is not
going to be substantially better than proceeeding with a light training week as far as the "injury"
is concerned. It's not like he's crippled to the point that he can't run or anything.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Yeah, but you're not going to notice a 1% drop in your guitar playing performance. Andrew is at a
level of training and ability where a 1% difference is substantial.

Quoted message said:

even if this mile is a little slow, it'll have less detrimental effect that flare-up of an injury
with 12miles to go.

It's too late for him to do anything about his so-called "injury". Taking a 5 day layoff is not
going to be substantially better than proceeeding with a light training week as far as the
"injury" is concerned. It's not like he's crippled to the point that he can't run or anything.

But you're not taking the fitness of the original poster (about whom I have no idea) into
consideration. While it's correct that Andrew's running at a relatively high level where he could
lose some of his sharpness, I think the original poster didn't post enough data for the same
conclusion to apply to him. If the poster is just trying to finish the marathon, taking the 5 days
off might be a better idea.

The main thing that degrades during the first few days off of exercise is plasma volume, a
reduction of which reduces an athlete's
VO2. Resting heart rate goes up a bit as a consequence of this. However, for someone just trying to
complete a marathon, not run
3:10, pushing the VO2 envelope isn't going to be as important a factor -- the major thing for
someone in this position is merely being able to handle the distance from an energy supply
perspective and from a musculoskeletal resilience perspective. Neither of those is going to change
much in 5 days. Depending on the nature of the impending injury, a few extra days of rest might be
helpful and might not.

If whatever hurts stops hurting, splitting up that 5 days with a short but slightly intense run
(3x1000m T-pace intervals, for instance, assuming that's a pretty easy thing for the poster to
complete - about 3 5 minute intervals at just slower than 10k race pace) would be better for both
neuromuscular coordination and plasma volume, but not if it makes the injury worse.

-Dave

--
work: dga - at - lcs.mit.edu me: angio - at - pobox.com MIT Laboratory for Computer Science
angio.netangio.netOpen ↗ (note that my reply-to address is vaguely despammed...) bulk emailers: I do
not accept unsolicited email. Do not mail me.

I try to run no more than 5-10 miles the week before a marathon. Just a good idea to give your body
a chance to recover fully from the training.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

"bigsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Do to a minor injury and perhaps some overtraining I am not running at all the five days prior to
Saturday's marathon. Anyone tried a similar taper and how was your performance on race day?

Quoted message said:

keep in mind...and in context...you're only missing about 14 miles total over that 5 day period...

?? When I'm running marathons, five days is 50 miles of training.

Taking five days off would be psychologically disturbing. I get antsy if I have take off two
days in a row.

rick++ said:

Quoted message said:

keep in mind...and in context...you're only missing about 14 miles total over that 5 day
period...

?? When I'm running marathons, five days is 50 miles of training.

In the last week of your taper?

Tim

In article said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Yeah, but you're not going to notice a 1% drop in your guitar playing performance. Andrew is at a
level of training and ability where a 1% difference is substantial.

Quoted message said:

even if this mile is a little slow, it'll have less detrimental effect that flare-up of an
injury with 12miles to go.

It's too late for him to do anything about his so-called "injury". Taking a 5 day layoff is not
going to be substantially better than proceeeding with a light training week as far as the
"injury" is concerned. It's not like he's crippled to the point that he can't run or anything.

But you're not taking the fitness of the original poster (about whom I have no idea) into
consideration. While it's correct that Andrew's running at a relatively high level where he
could lose some of his sharpness, I think the original poster didn't post enough data for the
same conclusion to apply to him. If the poster is just trying to finish the marathon, taking the
5 days off might be a better idea.

Of course you're dead right -- I was talking specifically about Andrew. Thanks for the insights and
clarifying points

[ which I've snipped for brevity ]

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

<< Subject: 5 days off before marathon From: [email hidden] (bigsky) Date: Tue, Oct 7, 2003
3:11 AM Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Do to a minor injury and perhaps some overtraining I am not running at all the five days prior to
Saturday's marathon. Anyone tried a similar taper and how was your performance on race day?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For what it's worth, I once took 3 weeks off before a marathon because I sprained an ankle playing
racquetball. I was still able to run a PR of 3:30, although it was not a pleasant experience.

As for the taper, I probably run less than 10 miles during the week before a marathon. I
would probably do 8-10 miles on the Sunday before the race.

Robert Walter, CA

Quoted message said:

An important point is that even a small percentage difference really is significant. A 1%
improvement in performance is 10 seconds off a 5k or 1 min off a marathon time. And experienced
runners like Andrew care about this.

The thread that I refer to (and it does come from outlook express - it's probably wrong!) didn't
mention a time - of course, a very fast marathoner will have to consider that 1% more than a 5 hour
marathoner will.

Quoted message said:

According to this paper, you're talking detraining in the range of 5-15%

with

Quoted message said:

as little as 12 days of inactivity.

216.239.41.104searchOpen ↗
economy+detrain+Noakes&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Quoted message said:

5 days translates into 5 minutes in the marathon time, which could well

make or

Quoted message said:

break his sub-3:10 wish..

THere was also a study that demonstrated substantial improvement in well

trained 5k

Quoted message said:

runners, when they undertook a 9 week strength program that focused on

running economy.

Quoted message said:

The improvements were monotonic and dramatic. There is a general principle

that it

Quoted message said:

takes substantially less time to detrain than it does to train, so I'd bet

on the

Quoted message said:

benefits of that 9 week program evaporating in about 2 weeks or so.

Back to my original argument - that does hold true if Andrew is an elete athlete - I don't know
either way.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Put it this way. I play guitar, and sometimes don't play a tune (or is

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in tune) for several weeks. When I do play it, I might feel a bit uncomfortable the first time,
but the next time feels like I never had

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

playing break.

Yeah, but you're not going to notice a 1% drop in your guitar playing

performance.

Quoted message said:

Andrew is at a level of training and ability where a 1% difference is

substantial.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Running is a far less complicated task, and

Running is not simple at all. It takes us several years to develop

reasonable running

Quoted message said:

economy. Children have terrible running economy, and there are studies

that

Quoted message said:

demonstrate this.

True, but do you think we loose this ability that quickly?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

by walking around, you are preserving a lot of the movements required when you run.

Not true.

OK - walking isn't running - we all know that. But isn't walking more akin to running than say
clcyling, or rowing?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm no exercise physiologist, and I have never run a marathon, but my instinct tells me that a 5
day break, especially considering your

injury,

Quoted message said:

Have you done a substantial amount of anaerobic training ? Once you hit

your

Quoted message said:

peak in terms of conditioning, a 5 day layoff will not help.

I don't understand your argument, but to set the record straight, I probably haven't done as much
training as you guys.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will do more good than harm. Even if you are a but 'rusty' at the

start,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm sure you'll be comfortable by the end of the first mile -

(1) how you "feel" is not relevant to my argument. You will "feel" just

fine

Quoted message said:

even if you are only 1% slower. 99% is not good enough, even if it "feels

OK"

Quoted message said:

to you.

But surely if you 'feel' bad, there's something wrong that is either going to stop you running fast,
or stop you running period in the near future.

Quoted message said:

(2) if it were true that you needed the start of the race to recover your

running

Quoted message said:

economy, that would be disasterous, because the last thing you want to do

is

Quoted message said:

burn more fuel at the start of the race.

Quoted message said:

even if this mile is a little slow, it'll have less detrimental effect

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

flare-up of an injury with 12miles to go.

It's too late for him to do anything about his so-called "injury". Taking

a 5

Quoted message said:

day layoff is not going to be substantially better than proceeeding with a light training week as
far as the "injury" is concerned. It's not like

he's

Quoted message said:

crippled to the point that he can't run or anything.

I'm sure it depends on the injury. Personally, if I feel sore, I take a couple of days off and the
pain resolves. Different people work differently - light exercise may benefit him - I can only speak
from personal experience, but in this case, I do defer to you - you being a fully fledged coach.

Quoted message said:

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Best, Dave

Quoted message said:

According to this paper, you're talking detraining in the range of 5-15%

with

Quoted message said:

as little as 12 days of inactivity.

216.239.41.104searchOpen ↗
economy+detrain+Noakes&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Quoted message said:

5 days translates into 5 minutes in the marathon time, which could well

make or

Quoted message said:

break his sub-3:10 wish..

Thank you for the link - I don't have time to read it right now, but it is bookmarked for due
consideration!

Best, Dave

In article said:

Quoted message said:

THere was also a study that demonstrated substantial improvement in well trained 5k runners, when
they undertook a 9 week strength program that focused on running economy. The improvements were
monotonic and dramatic. There is a general principle that it takes substantially less time to
detrain than it does to train, so I'd bet on the benefits of that 9 week program evaporating in
about 2 weeks or so.

Back to my original argument - that does hold true if Andrew is an elete athlete - I don't know
either way.

Not exactly elite, but respectable. More to the point, he's been training for long enough that the
law of diminishing returns applies. He's not going to enter a 5k race and get a PR by 30 seconds.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Running is not simple at all. It takes us several years to develop reasonable running economy.
Children have terrible running economy, and there are studies that demonstrate this.

True, but do you think we loose this ability that quickly?

Depends. We could lose 1% of that ability pretty quickly. You know, you said you could return to
guitar after a 5 day break. Probably true. But some aspects of playing guitar relate purely to your
mental representation of the instrument, which you're more likely to retain. So you'll maintain
basic competency, because of your insight into the instrument, but your raw speed will really
suffer, and if you were in a situation where 1% actually mattered, pyou'd notice. I bet Steve Vai
practices within 5 days of recording his album.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

by walking around, you are preserving a lot of the movements required when you run.

Not true.

OK - walking isn't running - we all know that. But isn't walking more akin to running than say
clcyling, or rowing?

There are two arguments.

(1) it's still not specific enough. Walking is substantially different to running -- if you want to
avoid losing that 1% or so, near enough isn't good enough.

(2) it's not as demanding. Ronnie Coleman (Mr Olympia) can't maintain his deadlift poundage by
carrying the groceries (even though it does use similar muscles). Likewise, you can't preserve
elite level running economy by stumbling aimlessly around the kitchen.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm no exercise physiologist, and I have never run a marathon, but my instinct tells me that a
5 day break, especially considering your

injury,

Quoted message said:

Have you done a substantial amount of anaerobic training ? Once you hit your peak in terms of
conditioning, a 5 day layoff will not help.

I don't understand your argument, but to set the record straight, I probably haven't done as much
training as you guys.

The point is that a good anaerobic performance involves a carefully calculated "peaking". You need
to be well trained and well rested at the same time. It's a very delicate balance. For most
anaerobic activities, for an experienced trainee, 5 days rest will have a non-negligible detraining
effect. This probably has something to do with neuromuscular issues (I'm actually guessing here)
because most people will not lose a lot of lean mass in only 5 days.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will do more good than harm. Even if you are a but 'rusty' at the

start,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm sure you'll be comfortable by the end of the first mile -

(1) how you "feel" is not relevant to my argument. You will "feel" just

fine

Quoted message said:

even if you are only 1% slower. 99% is not good enough, even if it "feels

OK"

Quoted message said:

to you.

But surely if you 'feel' bad, there's something wrong that is either going to stop you running
fast, or stop you running period in the near future.

Don't know what you mean by "feel" bad. If you're overtrained or injured just before a race, it's
really too late to do much about it. If overtrained, the best way to cut ones losses is still to go
with a conventional (or slightly exaggerated) taper.

I would argue that if it's not possible to train because of injury, the correct thing to do is
simply pull out of the race. If you can't easily get through half of your weekly milage, you have no
business setting foot on a race track.

Quoted message said:

personal experience, but in this case, I do defer to you - you being a fully fledged coach.

Just to clear things up, I'm most certainly not a "fully fledged coach" at all. I'm a runner like
many of the other posters here, and I've been running (and lifting weights, and listening) long
enough to learn quite a lot. But I'm not a fully fledged coach.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

5 days translates into 5 minutes in the marathon time, which could well make > or break his
sub-3:10 wish..

´ Whoa! How did you arrive at this formula "5 days off (before the marathon) = +5 minutes to a
3:10 time"?

A reduction of maximal oxygen uptake is not accompanied with a identical reduction of aerobic
threshold or sustainable marathon pace, and even when we know that the reduction of VO2max after
12-21 days´detraining is 5-15% we cannot claim to know what it is after 5 days.

(Of were you referring to some study other than the linked one - in which case it´s merely a case of
certain confusion on my part?:-))

OTOH I agree fully with our advice to Andrew: it is quite pointless to maintain endurance and it can
definitely be useful to do some "sharpish" running on maybe two of the last five days.

Anders

Globaldisc said:

?? When I'm running marathons, five days is 50 miles of training.
___

We're talking about the final 5 days before race day....you must be misunderstanding.

I guess if he's running 350 miles a week 50 might be considered a taper. 😉

Quoted message said:

For even the most "Advanced Marathon Runners"...they are not running more than 20 miles total,
collectively in the final 5 days. Most training programs I've seen range from 12 to 14 or 15 max.

Amen.

Quoted message said:

I'd like to thank Donovan for his contributions on this thread....fascinating stuff. I loved how
he quantified and connected time off with percentages in "drop off" and resulting times in races.
I was cluesless on this. Totally eye opening stuff for me.

I'm always curious how they generate such data. How can on tell how anyone might have done had they
done less or more on any arbitrary day.

Quoted message said:

Example..most training schedules I've seen call for a 2 or 3 mile run the very day before a
Marathon. That one's always puzzled me as on a lay-man level...I was thinking "rest" the day
before totally. Now it makes sense why a short run is of value.

For the average bear chilling out the last 5 days will do all good and no harm and all good. There
isn't much you can do in the last 5 days to help your race but lots to do to screw it up. I run
maybe 10 miles in my last 5 days - I love being well rested.

--
Doug Freese [email hidden]

(Anders Lustig) said:

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

5 days translates into 5 minutes in the marathon time, which could well make > or break his
sub-3:10 wish..

´ Whoa! How did you arrive at this formula "5 days off (before the marathon) = +5 minutes to a
3:10 time"?

Look, the guys an idiot or a troll, and you [censored] fall for it hook, line, ans sinker. If he's not a
troll he's still an idiot, so let him do his 50 miles the week before the race, then have a good
chuckle when he crashes.