10 mile TT preparation

AndROOb said:

[font=Times New Roman]I will be doing a 10 mile time trial mid december, and I have started to do 2x20’s to prepare for this event. My plan is to do these sessions twice a week. How should the other days of the week be spent in training?[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]I also found that when doing the 2x20’s at 320 watts, I really struggled to finish the second interval, whereas when I did the 2x20’s at 300 watts, I was able to complete the session fairly easily(not very). Considering what I’m training towards, which 2x20’s should I be doing?[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]If this is not the best way to train for this event, please let me know what is. [/font]

[font=Times New Roman]Thanks.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]Current ability: MAP: 320w @ 184MHR[/font]

I would add some shorter, more intense intervals to your program. Assuming your FT is ~300 watts, you could probably do 5 x 4's at 350-360 watts or 4 x 5's at 335-340 watts. IMHO, for a shorter time trial of ~20+ minutes you want to do some training at a higher intensity than what you will be racing at (or for any event, for that matter). I tried a program of shorter intervals for three weeks last March and saw much improvment. They were scheduled in blocks of two or three days followed by two recovery days.

As for your MAP of 320 watts, I suspect you mean "threshold" power. Wouldn't your MAP be ~400+ watts depending on which test you used?

What do you know about the course (e.g., topo profile, prevailing winds)? That will affect the duration and (for me) the training program. Do you have any idea what your 1 hr MP is?

postal_bag said:

I would add some shorter, more intense intervals to your program. Assuming your FT is ~300 watts, you could probably do 5 x 4's at 350-360 watts or 4 x 5's at 335-340 watts. IMHO, for a shorter time trial of ~20+ minutes you want to do some training at a higher intensity than what you will be racing at (or for any event, for that matter). I tried a program of shorter intervals for three weeks last March and saw much improvment. They were scheduled in blocks of two or three days followed by two recovery days.

Good advice, but keep in mind AndROOb that unless you have experience with such training (block or HIT 3 days/week), you are likely to have to *replace* one 2x20 with a higher intensity workout, as opposed to go into block training have "started" 2x20s (I assume) recently.

postal_bag said:

As for your MAP of 320 watts, I suspect you mean "threshold" power. Wouldn't your MAP be ~400+ watts depending on which test you used?

My comment as well.

Thanks for the responses so far;

postal_bag,
I saw a coach at the end of July, where I had a 'ramp' test. This seemed to me like a MAP test. It started (after a warm-up) with 1 minute at 100 watts, with 20 watts added throughout each minute incrementally. I completed the 320 watts minute and died 10 seconds after. This is where I have taken my info from, although I am wondering whether I'm ready for a re-test.
I have to admit, I do get confused with some of the abbreviations used in this forum, is there somewhere to check them out?
The intervals you mention sound good, and as Smartt/RST mentions, maybe something to incorporate into a weekly schedule. The only alternative I can think of is hill TT's that I incorporate into the rides I do on Sundays, where I have several hills of varying length and gradient that I climb whilst always looking to better my time. This certainly red-lines the HR!

RapDaddyo,
The course is an out and back course on a dual carriageway which is moderately undulating, more so in a couple of places. It is a course I am very familiar with. The winds are very changeable, both in direction and intensity, and the course is quite exposed. The 'out' (W going SW) part of the course is slightly shorter, so a W/SW wind would be favourable for the reurn journey 'back'. The worst winds seem to be strong N's and S's (for me anyway)

Smartt/RST,
I have responded in the main to what your response was based on, although I also wondered whether I could do a week 2 x 20's, then a week of
(block or HIT 3 days/week)?
Also to be honest, I'm not familiar with this type of training, can you or postal_bag elaborate on it for me.

Also is the rest of the week spent doing low resistance work?

AndROOb said:

Thanks for the responses so far;

postal_bag,
I saw a coach at the end of July, where I had a 'ramp' test. This seemed to me like a MAP test. It started (after a warm-up) with 1 minute at 100 watts, with 20 watts added throughout each minute incrementally. I completed the 320 watts minute and died 10 seconds after. This is where I have taken my info from, although I am wondering whether I'm ready for a re-test.
I have to admit, I do get confused with some of the abbreviations used in this forum, is there somewhere to check them out?
The intervals you mention sound good, and as Smartt/RST mentions, maybe something to incorporate into a weekly schedule. The only alternative I can think of is hill TT's that I incorporate into the rides I do on Sundays, where I have several hills of varying length and gradient that I climb whilst always looking to better my time. This certainly red-lines the HR!

RapDaddyo,
The course is an out and back course on a dual carriageway which is moderately undulating, more so in a couple of places. It is a course I am very familiar with. The winds are very changeable, both in direction and intensity, and the course is quite exposed. The 'out' (W going SW) part of the course is slightly shorter, so a W/SW wind would be favourable for the reurn journey 'back'. The worst winds seem to be strong N's and S's (for me anyway)

Smartt/RST,
I have responded in the main to what your response was based on, although I also wondered whether I could do a week 2 x 20's, then a week of
(block or HIT 3 days/week)?
Also to be honest, I'm not familiar with this type of training, can you or postal_bag elaborate on it for me.

Also is the rest of the week spent doing low resistance work?

An incremental test to exhaustion (or 'ramp' test) is indeed a MAP/VO2peak test, but clearly you should have retested some time ago if you can now complete a 2x20 workout at 320W. The average power of a 2x20 is an easy way to approximate your 1-hr power (although a 2x20 that "kills" you will result in a slight over estimation of your true 1-hr W). If you can complete a 2x20 at the same power as the final stage of your ramp test, clearly your fitness level is much higher than when you tested; your 1-hr power will be equal to 72-80% of your MAP, depending on test protocol, fitness level and ability.
As for your entire week's schedule, that's going a bit beyond this discussion, as I don't know your fitness background, time availability, ability to recover, psyche, training history/program, etc.
Block training is simply a term used to describe back to back training days of a similar nature (e.g.: 3 days in a row or 2x20s). Most of us regularly do endurance blocks during "base" training, it's just that no one seems to refer to it that way unless they are talking about HIT. A 'block' is usually followed by a more significant amount of recovery (2-3 days) due to the extreme load it places on the body.

I guess the block training suggestion was really a side note. My main point was that if you are training for a ~20 min event by doing only 2 x 20 min intervals, then technically you are training "slower" than you will likely be racing. If you break session into shorter, "faster" intervals, you will be training above race pace. If you can build your way up to say 6 x 4 min @ 350 to 360 watts (assuming 300 watts= 1 hr power) and gradually reduce the recovery intervals, this might help, in addition to your 2 x 20 workout.

AndROOb said:

The course is an out and back course on a dual carriageway which is moderately undulating, more so in a couple of places. It is a course I am very familiar with. The winds are very changeable, both in direction and intensity, and the course is quite exposed. The 'out' (W going SW) part of the course is slightly shorter, so a W/SW wind would be favourable for the reurn journey 'back'. The worst winds seem to be strong N's and S's (for me anyway).

There are a multitude of sources of good advice on increasing your sustainable power. In addition to training to increase your power, I also suggest that you learn your max power at durations up to 30 mins between now and your race. The reason is that if you overestimate your sustainable power and go out too hard your average power will be less than if you pace yourself in accordance with your true sustainable power for the duration of the event. It sounds as though wind will be at least as important as grade changes to your pacing plan. Even if you ride at a constant power, you will pay a price if you go out too hard. So, regardless of your pacing strategy, detailed knowledge of your power/duration curve is important.

I wanted to reply to this thread rather than start another because everything I have done in training since starting this thread has been prep work for the 10 mile TT event.

On the 5/11, I did a MAP test on a calibrated Tacx Flow trainer. The results are listed below, and after the results I recorded back in July.
July'05: 320w @ 184 MHR

5 Nov '05: 390w @ 188MHR

The next 2 days I did VO2 max intervals:
day1: 6x4@340w/4 min. rec,
day2: 6x4@ 345w/4 min. rec.
I would have done a 3 day block, but I considered the MAP test as what would have been equivalent to day1.
I then did 2 days of recovery riding, as I found that the MAP test/intervals really took it out of me.
I then went back to doing 2x20's:
day1: 1st x 20@300w(easy),therefore 2nd x 20@310w(fairly easy).
Took a day easy riding with the idea of trying next set at 310w.....
day2: 1st x 20 @310(still feeling strong, so..) 2nd x20 @320w(that's feels more like it).
I plan to continue with some VO2 max intervals, but have noticed that there is not much difference in my 2x20wattage and my VO2 max wattage.
Bearing this in mind, is it the VO2 max intervals that need working on?

I appreciate the feedback I get here very highly, and look forward to any comments.

AndROOb said:

I wanted to reply to this thread rather than start another because everything I have done in training since starting this thread has been prep work for the 10 mile TT event.

On the 5/11, I did a MAP test on a calibrated Tacx Flow trainer. The results are listed below, and after the results I recorded back in July.
July'05: 320w @ 184 MHR

5 Nov '05: 390w @ 188MHR

The next 2 days I did VO2 max intervals:
day1: 6x4@340w/4 min. rec,
day2: 6x4@ 345w/4 min. rec.
I would have done a 3 day block, but I considered the MAP test as what would have been equivalent to day1.
I then did 2 days of recovery riding, as I found that the MAP test/intervals really took it out of me.
I then went back to doing 2x20's:
day1: 1st x 20@300w(easy),therefore 2nd x 20@310w(fairly easy).
Took a day easy riding with the idea of trying next set at 310w.....
day2: 1st x 20 @310(still feeling strong, so..) 2nd x20 @320w(that's feels more like it).
I plan to continue with some VO2 max intervals, but have noticed that there is not much difference in my 2x20wattage and my VO2 max wattage.
Bearing this in mind, is it the VO2 max intervals that need working on?

I appreciate the feedback I get here very highly, and look forward to any comments.

I just read on Ric's web site that you should hold between 72 and 77 percent of your map for a 40k tt. You are above this range, assuming you could hold your 2x20 wattage for a full 40k, and that means you likely need to concentrate on your MAP/Vo2max.

AndROOb said:

RapDaddyo, The course is an out and back course on a dual carriageway which is moderately undulating, more so in a couple of places. It is a course I am very familiar with. The winds are very changeable, both in direction and intensity, and the course is quite exposed. The 'out' (W going SW) part of the course is slightly shorter, so a W/SW wind would be favourable for the reurn journey 'back'. The worst winds seem to be strong N's and S's (for me anyway).

Do you have a way of finding out the average and max wind speeds at that time of year? I'll work up a tentative pacing strategy based on the average and worst case wind conditions, something you can use on the day of the event. In the meantime, you might want to throw in a few 20min intervals with unequal 10min splits (e.g., FT+15w, FT-20w). Do these both ways (push/recovery, recovery/push). The fastest pacing strategy will inevitably be a variable power strategy, and this can be disconcerting if you haven't become comfortable riding variable power intervals designed to achieve a given NP.

RapDaddyo said:

Do you have a way of finding out the average and max wind speeds at that time of year? I'll work up a tentative pacing strategy based on the average and worst case wind conditions, something you can use on the day of the event. In the meantime, you might want to throw in a few 20min intervals with unequal 10min splits (e.g., FT+15w, FT-20w). Do these both ways (push/recovery, recovery/push). The fastest pacing strategy will inevitably be a variable power strategy, and this can be disconcerting if you haven't become comfortable riding variable power intervals designed to achieve a given NP.

Based on my knowledge of the weather at that time of year, I would predict anything from a 5-15mph wind from the south westerly quadrant. It is very possible that the wind could be from the north, and there is also a chance of no wind at all, but my gut feeling is my first prediction.
With regard to you interval prescription, I will give anything a try, and what you mention fills me with intrigue. That said, I haven't tried variable power intervals before.
Could you explain what FT is in relation to MAP?
Thank you.

whoawhoa said:

I just read on Ric's web site that you should hold between 72 and 77 percent of your map for a 40k tt. You are above this range, assuming you could hold your 2x20 wattage for a full 40k, and that means you likely need to concentrate on your MAP/Vo2max.

With consideration, I was starting to think this would be the case. I think it could also have been a reason for the slow incremental progress I made over the season just gone, with relentless 10's or 25's every weekend continually working on my LT. In retrospect, I was doing very little, if nothing on my VO2 max because I didn't know the importance of this work.
I think with *more* work done on VO2 max, and *some* work done on LT, I will make more noticeable progress, maybe a ratio of 2:1 respectively.
Do you think this would be a good balance?

whoawhoa said:

I just read on Ric's web site that you should hold between 72 and 77 percent of your map for a 40k tt. You are above this range, assuming you could hold your 2x20 wattage for a full 40k, and that means you likely need to concentrate on your MAP/Vo2max.

With consideration, I was starting to think this would be the case. I think it could also have been a reason for the slow incremental progress I made over the season just gone, with relentless 10's or 25's every weekend continually working on my LT. In retrospect, I was doing very little, if nothing on my VO2 max because I didn't know the importance of this work.
I think with *more* work done on VO2 max, and *some* work done on LT, I will make more noticeable progress, maybe a ratio of 2:1 respectively.
Do you think this would be a good balance?

AndROOb said:

Based on my knowledge of the weather at that time of year, I would predict anything from a 5-15mph wind from the south westerly quadrant. It is very possible that the wind could be from the north, and there is also a chance of no wind at all, but my gut feeling is my first prediction.
With regard to you interval prescription, I will give anything a try, and what you mention fills me with intrigue. That said, I haven't tried variable power intervals before.
Could you explain what FT is in relation to MAP?
Thank you.

I'll work out a pacing plan for you at 0, 5, 10 and 15mph, headwind both outbound and inbound. I'll also show you the time advantage of riding a variable power pacing strategy for the outbound and inbound segments vs. a constant power pacing strategy. You can then decide if the VP strategy is worth it for the time gains. A CP strategy is clearly the simpler pacing strategy, but VP will be somewhat faster (if the wind is 15mph, it will be much faster). FT is functional threshold, or your max power for ~1 hr duration. Because your TT is 10 mi, your max sustainable power is probably ~105%FT. I don't use MAP much, but I think FT is usually ~75%MAP (+/- 3%-4%).

AndROOb said:

With consideration, I was starting to think this would be the case. I think it could also have been a reason for the slow incremental progress I made over the season just gone, with relentless 10's or 25's every weekend continually working on my LT. In retrospect, I was doing very little, if nothing on my VO2 max because I didn't know the importance of this work.
I think with *more* work done on VO2 max, and *some* work done on LT, I will make more noticeable progress, maybe a ratio of 2:1 respectively.
Do you think this would be a good balance?

I'm not qualified to give you an exact ration, but I think 2:1 or maybe slightly more weighted towards vo2max would be good. Just lots of v02max work with z4 work for maintenance until your 40k tt power is only 74ish percent of your MAP. Then go back and raise your 40k tt power.

Following a posting by whoawhoa about peaking, which went on to mention tapering, it occurred to me that I dont really know the best way to taper my training in the week or so leading up to the 10 mile TT event on the 18th December.

Thanks to all responses so far, I feel totally motivated by a greater understanding of what I'm doing, and why, thanks to you guys.

AndROOb said:

Following a posting by whoawhoa about peaking, which went on to mention tapering, it occurred to me that I dont really know the best way to taper my training in the week or so leading up to the 10 mile TT event on the 18th December.

Thanks to all responses so far, I feel totally motivated by a greater understanding of what I'm doing, and why, thanks to you guys.

sweet-you can contribute to that thread!

Even though my question was pretty specific, It would be cool if that thread was a good general guide to tapering/peaking for important races.

I have used this thread as it is related to the same issue, although I have found 2-3 other threads that deal with this, my latest posting.

Up until yesterday(Wednesday), I have been using a Tacx ergo trainer(1680) to do all my power related training, and yesterday, I took my first ride on the road with a powertap pro equiped wheel. First thing I noticed was how much my power output changed with fairly slight changes in pedaling, not to mention topography and weather. I also became aware that I found it difficult to reach the same or similar power outputs to that I was reaching on the Tacx Flow trainer. The first thing I did this morning(Thursday) was to set the bike up in the trainer with both the PT read-out and the Tacx read-out. The powertap wattage read-out was approx 70% of the Tacx wattage read-out.
At this point I wondered whether this was due to differences in resistance between the Tacx and actual road riding.

My second plan today was to ride the course where I am due to ride the TT this Sunday, and I decided, after warming up, to ride the course at around 280w average output. It wasn't long before I was maxing out(HR=180, MHR=188), and the power read-out(set to ave. power every 2 secs) gradually dwindled to around 200w. I finished in about 26:30, and knew roughly what to expect when I looked at the PT analysis graph.
Since the test-ride, I have had the PT back on the Tacx trainer, to check the difference in out-put between 150w and 320w(Tacx figures), to find out if the difference remains the same, and it does:
Tacx Powertap pro
150w 97w
200w 135w
250w 170w
280w 196w
300w 213w
320w 223w

I have re-assessed my 10 mile power (PT=~220w), but would be interested to know which power output is out.
kreuzotter.deespeed.htmOpen ↗
I have used the above link to get a rough idea, that weight/ height etc considered, 280w(no wind/flat terrain) = 25mph, and this is what the Tacx displays, while the PT displays ~210w.
But, I punched in my figures from todays TT test, and the PT seems spot on, which has left me quite confused... again!

Has anyone else experienced these differences, or can anyone let me know if the 2 units can be calibrated to give the same read-out?

AndROOb said:

I have used this thread as it is related to the same issue, although I have found 2-3 other threads that deal with this, my latest posting.

Up until yesterday(Wednesday), I have been using a Tacx ergo trainer(1680) to do all my power related training, and yesterday, I took my first ride on the road with a powertap pro equiped wheel. First thing I noticed was how much my power output changed with fairly slight changes in pedaling, not to mention topography and weather. I also became aware that I found it difficult to reach the same or similar power outputs to that I was reaching on the Tacx Flow trainer. The first thing I did this morning(Thursday) was to set the bike up in the trainer with both the PT read-out and the Tacx read-out. The powertap wattage read-out was approx 70% of the Tacx wattage read-out.
At this point I wondered whether this was due to differences in resistance between the Tacx and actual road riding.

My second plan today was to ride the course where I am due to ride the TT this Sunday, and I decided, after warming up, to ride the course at around 280w average output. It wasn't long before I was maxing out(HR=180, MHR=188), and the power read-out(set to ave. power every 2 secs) gradually dwindled to around 200w. I finished in about 26:30, and knew roughly what to expect when I looked at the PT analysis graph.
Since the test-ride, I have had the PT back on the Tacx trainer, to check the difference in out-put between 150w and 320w(Tacx figures), to find out if the difference remains the same, and it does:
Tacx Powertap pro
150w 97w
200w 135w
250w 170w
280w 196w
300w 213w
320w 223w

I have re-assessed my 10 mile power (PT=~220w), but would be interested to know which power output is out.
kreuzotter.deespeed.htmOpen ↗
I have used the above link to get a rough idea, that weight/ height etc considered, 280w(no wind/flat terrain) = 25mph, and this is what the Tacx displays, while the PT displays ~210w.
But, I punched in my figures from todays TT test, and the PT seems spot on, which has left me quite confused... again!

Has anyone else experienced these differences, or can anyone let me know if the 2 units can be calibrated to give the same read-out?

I think ~200~ watts is much more likely for a 26:30 ten mile tt. The speed display on the tacx is worthless, as it probably makes a basic estimate of cda. I bet the ptap is on. I think there are some other threads suggesting the tacx overestimates power.