Climbing Technique

Richard Pu said:

Does anyone know why you are supposed to sway the bicycle from side to
side when pedaling standing up? I do it because I've been told to do
it, but I don't see any particular benefit from swaying the bicycle.

You should be pulling up on the right side of the bar as you push down on
the right pedal (and vice versa). This produces more force on the pedal than
just your weight alone, and causes the bike the sway back and forth.

Art Harris

Richard Pu <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone know why you are supposed to sway the bicycle from side to
side when pedaling standing up? I do it because I've been told to do
it, but I don't see any particular benefit from swaying the bicycle.

I don't do it intentionally, but it does happen naturally as part of my pedal
stroke (when I'm pedalling hard enough).

Richard Pu said:

Does anyone know why you are supposed to sway the bicycle from side
to side when pedaling standing up? I do it because I've been told
to do it, but I don't see any particular benefit from swaying the
bicycle.

A pro bike racer told me that rocking the bike away from the power
stroke adds to the applied power. This might be techincally true but
I doubt that it's significant. Bernard Hinault's book suggests that
proper climbing out of the saddle involves rocking the bike from side
to side so that the rider's weight is centered over the pedal. My
personal opinion is that it just feels more natural and more fluid.

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Richard Pu said:

Does anyone know why you are supposed to sway the bicycle from side
to side when pedaling standing up? I do it because I've been told
to do it, but I don't see any particular benefit from swaying the
bicycle.

A pro bike racer told me that rocking the bike away from the power
stroke adds to the applied power. This might be techincally true but
I doubt that it's significant. Bernard Hinault's book suggests that
proper climbing out of the saddle involves rocking the bike from side
to side so that the rider's weight is centered over the pedal. My
personal opinion is that it just feels more natural and more fluid.

Yes, it happens naturally if the rider wishes to move his cg over the
pedal. The 20lb bike moving under the rider is the result rather than
the (insert rider weight here) rider moving over the pedal. The cg has
to remain over the tire contact patch so it's a natural sequence of
events to maintain balance. Maintaining a body position centered over
the bike, the rider might as well remain seated.

PH

Quoted message said:

Yes, it happens naturally if the rider wishes to move his cg over the
pedal. The 20lb bike moving under the rider is the result rather than
the (insert rider weight here) rider moving over the pedal. The cg has
to remain over the tire contact patch so it's a natural sequence of
events to maintain balance. Maintaining a body position centered over
the bike, the rider might as well remain seated.

Correct, this is what people don't always understand. It makes more sense
to move the (relatively) very light bicycle from side-to-side than it does
the much-heavier body. This is also the reason why, when standing, the
difference between a very light and a not-so-light bicycle is much more
noticeable than when seated (because you're not throwing so much weight
around on the lighter bike).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Richard Pu said:

Does anyone know why you are supposed to sway the bicycle from side
to side when pedaling standing up? I do it because I've been told
to do it, but I don't see any particular benefit from swaying the
bicycle.

As the right pedal is being forced downward (and possibly the left
pedal upward) a torque results on the bicycle about the line of
contact with the road. A counter torque must be delivered by the
hands, the only other point of contact between rider and bicycle.
This counter torque is a force at the bars (to the left at this time)
becomes easier to exert the farther the top of the bicycle is pushed
to that side. The limit is when more arm work is exerted than
necessary there being a balance between force and work. Minimizing
arm effort between force and work (work is force times distance) is
the natural sway that riders with experience develop on longer climbs.

To do this you must first develop the muscles that permit pedaling
while standing. These are a little different from the ones used
sitting. That is why riders switch between the two modes of riding,
to relax some muscles while engaging others. Also, one can exert more
force standing. That is why steep climbing and sprinting are most
often done standing.

Try it and you'll see why.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote: Yes, it happens naturally if the rider wishes to
move his cg over the pedal.(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It's not just your CG that wants to line up. If you pull up on the
handlebar to add to your weight, this produces a moment which tries to tilt
the bike. If you resist this moment, you are actually adding effort to your
arms and shoulders that HAS NO BENEFIT. If you allow the bike to move
naturally, the hand, pedal and rolling line will fall in one plane, and you
will become less tired.

Quoted message said:

To do this you must first develop the muscles that permit pedaling
while standing. These are a little different from the ones used
sitting. That is why riders switch between the two modes of riding,
to relax some muscles while engaging others. Also, one can exert more
force standing. That is why steep climbing and sprinting are most
often done standing.

Try it and you'll see why.

If you want a stunning surprise, arrange a handle in back of the seat
(you have to find the right height below the seat level) that you
can pull up on with one hand to keep yourself in the seat, as you
pedal uphill seated and steering one-handed with the other hand.

I did this one day, when needing to stabilize a milk crate loaded
with groceries on a failed luggage rack, and positively flew up
hills one handed with the other hand on the milk crate handle.
--
Ron Hardin
[email hidden]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:38:05 -0500, Richard Pu <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Does anyone know why you are supposed to sway the bicycle from side to
side when pedaling standing up? I do it because I've been told to do
it, but I don't see any particular benefit from swaying the bicycle.

You don't have a choice. So the particular benefit is that it keeps
you upright and moving forward.

Try focusing on the downstroke and letting the arm on the opposite
side of the bike stay as relaxed as possible. This will give you an
idea of how much tilting is necessary to simply counteract the force
of the downstroke.

I will give serious focus to the swaying action when I want to by
distracted from the pain in my legs...

You're NOT "supposed to" sway the bike; it just happens. The less sway,
the less power is going into pulling the bike over to sway the other
direction. Don't worry about some sway, but also don't intentionally
sway it.

Richard Pu said:

Does anyone know why you are supposed to sway the bicycle from side to
side when pedaling standing up? I do it because I've been told to do
it, but I don't see any particular benefit from swaying the bicycle.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, it happens naturally if the rider wishes to move his cg over
the pedal. The 20lb bike moving under the rider is the result
rather than the (insert rider weight here) rider moving over the
pedal. The cg has to remain over the tire contact patch so it's a
natural sequence of events to maintain balance. Maintaining a body
position centered over the bike, the rider might as well remain
seated.

Correct, this is what people don't always understand. It makes more
sense to move the (relatively) very light bicycle from side-to-side
than it does the much-heavier body. This is also the reason why,
when standing, the difference between a very light and a
not-so-light bicycle is much more noticeable than when seated
(because you're not throwing so much weight around on the lighter
bike).

Yup, and geometry differences such as a high bottom bracket are more
noticeable whan standing and climbing.

Richard Pu said:

Does anyone know why you are supposed to sway the bicycle from side to
side when pedaling standing up? I do it because I've been told to do
it, but I don't see any particular benefit from swaying the bicycle.

Optional, depends mostly on cadence and style. If you work best spinning a low
gear up the hill you probably won't be rocking much or out of the saddle for
long stretches. What'isname that guy who just won the TdF stayed to a low gear
and only got out of the saddle in bursts, not rocking the bike much.

The faster you're spinning the less effective rocking the bike gets - after a
point it gets silly.

If you don't feel like rocking the bike helps, then it probably doesn't. The
body's pretty reliable when it comes to finding the most labor efficient way of
doing something.

Ron

Dan Daniel said:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone know why you are supposed to sway the bicycle from side
to side when pedaling standing up? I do it because I've been told
to do it, but I don't see any particular benefit from swaying the
bicycle.

Quoted message said:

You don't have a choice. So the particular benefit is that it keeps
you upright and moving forward.

Not so. There are many new riders who keep the bicycle purely upright
with force on the handlebars. It isn't easier but some folks probably
feel leaning off to one side of the bicycle is dangerous.

Quoted message said:

Try focusing on the downstroke and letting the arm on the opposite
side of the bike stay as relaxed as possible. This will give you an
idea of how much tilting is necessary to simply counteract the force
of the downstroke.

Quoted message said:

I will give serious focus to the swaying action when I want to by
distracted from the pain in my legs...

Get in shape man. This is not supposed to hurt.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Leo Lichtman said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, it happens naturally if the rider wishes to move his CG over
the pedal.

Quoted message said:

It's not just your CG that wants to line up. If you pull up on the
handlebar to add to your weight, this produces a moment which tries
to tilt the bike. If you resist this moment, you are actually
adding effort to your arms and shoulders that HAS NO BENEFIT. If
you allow the bike to move naturally, the hand, pedal and rolling
line will fall in one plane, and you will become less tired.

Pedal and "rolling line" are always in one plane, three points
determining a plane. You may have meant that the pedal is vertically
over the road contact line but this cannot be because the foot is
variably distant from the road from about 16 inches to 4 and the lean
angle is substantially less that enough to make any part of that
stroke to lie over the road contact line.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Dan Daniel writes:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I will give serious focus to the swaying action when I want to by
distracted from the pain in my legs...

Get in shape man. This is not supposed to hurt.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Dear Jobst,

We suffer from beginning to end. You want to see how we
ride? Look. Here is the cocaine for the eyes. Here is the
chloroform for the gums. And the pills? You want to see the
pills?

Henri P.

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 06:42:58 GMT, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Dan Daniel said:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone know why you are supposed to sway the bicycle from side
to side when pedaling standing up? I do it because I've been told
to do it, but I don't see any particular benefit from swaying the
bicycle.

Quoted message said:

You don't have a choice. So the particular benefit is that it keeps
you upright and moving forward.

Not so. There are many new riders who keep the bicycle purely upright
with force on the handlebars. It isn't easier but some folks probably
feel leaning off to one side of the bicycle is dangerous.

So this is possible? I guess that the handlebar is far enough
off-center that with enough force you can counteract the down stroke
with pressure on the other side of the handlebar. I haven't noticed
riders doing it, but I'm probably not paying enough attention.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Try focusing on the downstroke and letting the arm on the opposite
side of the bike stay as relaxed as possible. This will give you an
idea of how much tilting is necessary to simply counteract the force
of the downstroke.

Quoted message said:

I will give serious focus to the swaying action when I want to by
distracted from the pain in my legs...

Get in shape man. This is not supposed to hurt.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

It isn't???! Oh [censored], why didn't anyone tell me this before?!

Jobst Brandt said:

...

Quoted message said:

I will give serious focus to the swaying action when I want to by
distracted from the pain in my legs...

Get in shape man. This is not supposed to hurt.

"(Training) doesn't get easier; you just get faster" - Greg Lemond

Presumably Mr. Lemond was in shape during his amateur and professional
racing careers.

--
Tom Sherman

Tom Sherman said:

Jobst Brandt said:

...

Quoted message said:

I will give serious focus to the swaying action when I want to by
distracted from the pain in my legs...

Get in shape man. This is not supposed to hurt.

"(Training) doesn't get easier; you just get faster" - Greg Lemond

Presumably Mr. Lemond was in shape during his amateur and professional
racing careers.

Competitive training is always a pain-bearing contest, otherwise why
stop?

But I can climb anything and never even notice my legs, nor am I ever
out of breath. Pacing is everything - just at the edge of setting
one or the other off but not quite provoking either.

It's not competition, but there's training of a sort that goes into that
riding in all conditions right at that edge, not any slower or faster.
--
Ron Hardin
[email hidden]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

I don't and I climb with lots of control.

I MTB 2004