Climbing Technique

Terry Morse wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

n crowley said:

With the correct adjustment of the pedaling technique, one can reproduce
the same standing climbing power when seated with the same safer less
straining effect on the knees and lower back. That was where Anquetil's
mysterious extra TT pedal power came from.

Egods, not this hoary chestnut again!

How do I set up a bogus Anquetil pedaling style filter on my
newsreader?

Anquetil said riders are professionals and do not need drug testing to look
after them. He died an early death.

Trevor

n crowley said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Also, one can exert more force standing. That is why steep
> climbing and sprinting are most often done standing.

It may well be but on a long climb riders most often alternate as I
mentioned. If you were to use Lance Armstrong as your ideal model
then you would have to ride standing more than seated.

Not sure about emulating Lance, given that his biometrics are outside
the
norm. High cadence out-of-saddle for a short while, OK, but too tiring
for me to do it as long as he does.

I thought about this more today. I wonder if I like seated climbing
because i'm built more like a Spanish climber. Thin build with not
much
fast-twitch. Maybe if I was heavier I'd get more out of standing than
I
do.

http://www.cptips.com/climb.htm claims seating climbing is 10% to 12%
more efficient. Not sure about that, you raise a good point, if that
was
true then more pros would exploit that.

==========================================================

Even though you are exerting more force when standing, it has a less
straining effect on the knees and lower back than if the same or even
less
force was applied when seated. This is one important point that
cycling's
medical researchers overlooked. Total elimination of chronic cycling
related
lower back pain and many knee injuries are directly related to this
fact.
With the correct adjustment of the pedaling technique, one can
reproduce the same standing climbing power when seated with the same
safer less straining effect on the knees and lower back. That was
where Anquetil's mysterious extra TT pedal power came from.

Trevor?

Bill "quote cops can flame me for leaving it all" S.

Jim Smith said:

Blair P. Houghton said:

Jim Smith said:

[email hidden] writes:
> Blair P. Houghton writes:
>
Correct. Once the phosphagen and glycogen systems are played out the limit
on power output is the rate of delivery of O2 to the muscle, which in turn
is limited mostly by the cardiac output.

There's also the matter of waste removal, but in general
that's going to happen about as fast as oxygen delivery.
(Someone look up the limbic system and give us a full report
over the weekend.)

The limbic system? As in the amygdala, hippocampus, cingulate gyrus
and mammillary body? The seat of Love and Fear?

Sorry. Lymphatic. I do that on occasion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Even at maximal exertion there
is still a 30 to 40 percent reserve of respiratory capacity.

As far a running out of breath after running up stairs, well, that is
a little bit more complicated. There is an "oxygen debt" of about 10
to 15 liters (mostly due to the anaerobic systems) which is incurred
during the first few minutes of exercise and must be paid back,
requiring somewhat increased ventilation for about a hour after
exercise.

Now that's interesting. Why isn't it compensated by heavier
breathing if there's a 30% excess respiratory capacity?

Not sure what you mean. The point is just that respiration is not a
limit on performance unless you have seriously screwed up lungs.

I mean if there's plenty of lung capacity, why doesn't the
oxygen debt get paid off by breathing harder? Where's the
real bottleneck on oxygen delivery in the steady state?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd say it's another contributor, but power output is going to
make the most difference in your noticeable panting behaviors.

Suprisingly not.

That runs counter to the data I collect every time I stand on
a hill.

--Blair
"Maybe the theory is botched."

Terry Morse said:

Quoted message said:

With the correct adjustment of the pedaling technique, one can
reproduce the same standing climbing power when seated with the
same safer less straining effect on the knees and lower back. That
was where Anquetil's mysterious extra TT pedal power came from.

Quoted message said:

Egads, not this hoary chestnut again!

Quoted message said:

How do I set up a bogus Anquetil pedaling style filter on my
newsreader?

That's a tough one. The Anquetil and ankling faithful belong to a
cult, and attacking them or even trying to neutralize them is
counterproductive. Just avoid any discourse on the subject. I
believe that's the best anyone can do.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Terry Morse said:

Quoted message said:

With the correct adjustment of the pedaling technique, one can
reproduce the same standing climbing power when seated with the
same safer less straining effect on the knees and lower back. That
was where Anquetil's mysterious extra TT pedal power came from.

Quoted message said:

Egads, not this hoary chestnut again!

Quoted message said:

How do I set up a bogus Anquetil pedaling style filter on my
newsreader?

That's a tough one. The Anquetil and ankling faithful belong to a
cult, and attacking them or even trying to neutralize them is
counterproductive. Just avoid any discourse on the subject. I
believe that's the best anyone can do.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

I've seen numerous mentions of the "Anquetil style" before, but have
never seen a description of it. But, since you mention ankling I
assume he must have been a proponent of significant heel-down
pedaling.

If you've seen Zinn's recent posting on velonews.com re: the
wobble-naught system, you'd know that there are those who have
EMPRICAL PROOF(careful, make sure your sarcasm filter is calibrated
before responding!) of the efficiency of a heels down pedaling
technique.

Seems the gastrocnemius muscles are huge wasters of aerobic energy and
add little to the power equation. Pedalling heels-down takes 'em out
of the equation and frees up all that extra oxygen and energy for more
effect muscles.

hmmm....

Scott Hendricks wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Seems the gastrocnemius muscles are huge wasters of aerobic energy and
add little to the power equation. Pedalling heels-down takes 'em out
of the equation and frees up all that extra oxygen and energy for more
effect muscles.

When 'training' I avoid pressing the pedals down at all because it seems
clear to me that the muscles required to do this are big and strong and it
is the rest of the cycle that needs strength improvement. I concentrate on
drawing back the foot at the bottom of the pedal cycle and lifting the foot
at the rear of the cycle. The work done is then more efficiently used in
sustaining speed. Whith times where higher power is needed eg excess of
22mph I then have the reserve of pressing harder if somewhat less efficient.
As I have stated before, cadence in excess of 200rpm is possible if proper
training is undertaken.

Trevor

Blair P. Houghton said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Even at maximal exertion there
>is still a 30 to 40 percent reserve of respiratory capacity.
>
>As far a running out of breath after running up stairs, well, that is
>a little bit more complicated. There is an "oxygen debt" of about 10
>to 15 liters (mostly due to the anaerobic systems) which is incurred
>during the first few minutes of exercise and must be paid back,
>requiring somewhat increased ventilation for about a hour after
>exercise.

Now that's interesting. Why isn't it compensated by heavier
breathing if there's a 30% excess respiratory capacity

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not sure what you mean. The point is just that respiration is not a
limit on performance unless you have seriously screwed up lungs.

I mean if there's plenty of lung capacity, why doesn't the
oxygen debt get paid off by breathing harder? Where's the
real bottleneck on oxygen delivery in the steady state?

The oxygen debt is mostly a result of having to restore the goodies that
are used up by the anaerobic systems in the first couple of minutes
of exercise. This will keep the respiratory rate slightly above normal for
about an hour after exercise. The bottleneck during steady state aerobic
exercise is the cardiac output. Oxygen delivery from the lungs to the
blood is no problem. The minute ventilation is a powerful regulator
of blood pH, which remains normal during intense exercise.

Jim Smith said:

Blair P. Houghton said:

I mean if there's plenty of lung capacity, why doesn't the
oxygen debt get paid off by breathing harder? Where's the
real bottleneck on oxygen delivery in the steady state?

The oxygen debt is mostly a result of having to restore the goodies that
are used up by the anaerobic systems in the first couple of minutes
of exercise. This will keep the respiratory rate slightly above normal for
about an hour after exercise.

Must not be by much (a couple of breaths per minute).
I recover pretty quickly in respiratory terms after my
daily hard 1-hour rides.

It's the sweating I want to stop within 20 minutes, but it
generally lasts for an hour or more, even if I drink cool
fluids and shower. Related to respiration or just latent
muscular heat? I.e., if the mitochondria are producing
these things you say need replacing, then the heat and
sweating would be caused by the same thing that causes
the excess respiration.

The real problem with the sweating is that it prevents
showering right after riding because if I sweat after I
shower I have to shower again...

N.B., I ride in the morning in AZ, at temps from 75 to 85F,
and I'm acclimatized and have my hydration rate down pat,
so my body may be sweating more than those who ride in
cooler climates and it just doesn't feel like a problem
to me.

Quoted message said:

The bottleneck during steady state aerobic
exercise is the cardiac output. Oxygen delivery from the lungs to the
blood is no problem. The minute ventilation is a powerful regulator
of blood pH, which remains normal during intense exercise.

By cardiac output you must mean the total blood delivery to the
few muscles that are working in a cyclist (the upper torso is
fairly passive except for some stabilizing abs and controlling
arm muscles, as if anyone here didn't know that). Small femoral
arteries would reduce the capability a big aorta and strong
heart would provide. Yes or no?

--Blair
"Anyone got a good book on exercise
biochemistry?"

Blair P. Houghton said:

Jim Smith said:

Blair P. Houghton said:

I mean if there's plenty of lung capacity, why doesn't the
oxygen debt get paid off by breathing harder? Where's the
real bottleneck on oxygen delivery in the steady state?

The oxygen debt is mostly a result of having to restore the goodies that
are used up by the anaerobic systems in the first couple of minutes
of exercise. This will keep the respiratory rate slightly above normal for
about an hour after exercise.

Must not be by much (a couple of breaths per minute).
I recover pretty quickly in respiratory terms after my
daily hard 1-hour rides.

You're right it drops off very quickly during the first couple of
minutes but remains slightly, but measurably, higher for about an
hour.

Quoted message said:

It's the sweating I want to stop within 20 minutes, but it
generally lasts for an hour or more, even if I drink cool
fluids and shower. Related to respiration or just latent
muscular heat? I.e., if the mitochondria are producing
these things you say need replacing, then the heat and
sweating would be caused by the same thing that causes
the excess respiration.

I don't know much abut sweating, but I won't let that stop me.
Production of body heat is pretty closely correlated with
oxygen consumption. O2 consumption does remain slightly
elevated after exercise, as we discussed above, but how much
this contributes to the problem I don't know. It is normal for
body temperature to rise during exercise but I don't know how
long it remains elevated. I imagine it can be looked up. Also,
in addition to their control by cholinergic sympathetic neurons,
sweat glands are also prompted to get busy by circulating epinephrine
and nor-epinephrine released during exercise. I don't know
how long those stick around either. (I know they have short half lives
but I don't know how closely production follows activity)

Quoted message said:

The real problem with the sweating is that it prevents
showering right after riding because if I sweat after I
shower I have to shower again...

Like most things in life, There is a Simpsons or Seinfeld
episode dealing with this issue. Seinfeld covered this one.

Quoted message said:

N.B., I ride in the morning in AZ, at temps from 75 to 85F,
and I'm acclimatized and have my hydration rate down pat,
so my body may be sweating more than those who ride in
cooler climates and it just doesn't feel like a problem
to me.

Hmm. As you know, part of acclimatizing to a hotter client involves
sweating more. It seems like that would keep your body temperature down
and allow your shower to "take" sooner.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The bottleneck during steady state aerobic
exercise is the cardiac output. Oxygen delivery from the lungs to the
blood is no problem. The minute ventilation is a powerful regulator
of blood pH, which remains normal during intense exercise.

By cardiac output you must mean the total blood delivery to the
few muscles that are working in a cyclist (the upper torso is
fairly passive except for some stabilizing abs and controlling
arm muscles, as if anyone here didn't know that). Small femoral
arteries would reduce the capability a big aorta and strong
heart would provide. Yes or no?

That is actually a good point, but in a healthy individual the heart
is the limiting factor. A nice femoral is finger sized and it doesn't
even have to supply the hip extensors. So you have to figure a few
other branches off the iliacs too. There are, of course, folks with
peripheral vascular disease whose arteries can not handle the extra
demand of even walking, and they often end up with a gore-tex tube to
help things along, but it does not seem to be a limiting factor
otherwise.

Jim Smith said:

Blair P. Houghton <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The real problem with the sweating is that it prevents
showering right after riding because if I sweat after I
shower I have to shower again...

Like most things in life, There is a Simpsons or Seinfeld
episode dealing with this issue. Seinfeld covered this one.

Specifically, George Costanza ("it didn't take"😉.

Bill "hope for you yet, Jim (err, Smith!)" S.

S o r n i said:

Jim Smith said:

Blair P. Houghton <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The real problem with the sweating is that it prevents
showering right after riding because if I sweat after I
shower I have to shower again...

Like most things in life, There is a Simpsons or Seinfeld
episode dealing with this issue. Seinfeld covered this one.

Specifically, George Costanza ("it didn't take"😉.

Jimmy doesn't watch Seinfeld.

--Blair
"How's my rear wheel look
from back there?"

Jim Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

That is actually a good point, but in a healthy individual the heart
is the limiting factor. A nice femoral is finger sized and it doesn't
even have to supply the hip extensors. So you have to figure a few
other branches off the iliacs too. There are, of course, folks with
peripheral vascular disease whose arteries can not handle the extra
demand of even walking, and they often end up with a gore-tex tube to
help things along, but it does not seem to be a limiting factor
otherwise.

Actually, in a healthy individual, the haemoglobin content of the blood is
the limiting factor. This is why EPO helps performance so much.

Here's something: if you can breathe in oxygen at a high FiO2, would that
give sufficient performance enhancement to offset the increase in weight? I
can imagine the new job of the domestique: ferrying oxygen canisters to the
team leader.

-A

qtq said:

Jim Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

That is actually a good point, but in a healthy individual the heart
is the limiting factor. A nice femoral is finger sized and it doesn't
even have to supply the hip extensors. So you have to figure a few
other branches off the iliacs too. There are, of course, folks with
peripheral vascular disease whose arteries can not handle the extra
demand of even walking, and they often end up with a gore-tex tube to
help things along, but it does not seem to be a limiting factor
otherwise.

Actually, in a healthy individual, the haemoglobin content of the blood is
the limiting factor. This is why EPO helps performance so much.

Well, that is sort of cheating. Hemoglobin concentration is
essentially constant in any given individual. The fact that EPO works
so well does highlight the fact that respiration is not the limiting
factor factor. I suppose it is not strictly accurate to say that
either cardiac output or Hgb is limiting factor, it depends on the
product of the two

Quoted message said:

Here's something: if you can breathe in oxygen at a high FiO2, would that
give sufficient performance enhancement to offset the increase in weight?

Maybe. All available hemoglobin is normally 100% saturated when it
reaches the left atrium, even when the Hgb has been artificially
raised above normal physiologic levels so you can't gain anything
there. You do gain a small amount in O2 dissolved in the blood, not
bound to Hgb, but this is only 0.03 ml O2 per liter blood per mmHg
PO2. So if you could get the PO2 in the alveoli up to 700mmHg at a
cardiac output of 30 liters / minute you are getting an extra (700 -
100) * 0.03 * 30 = 540 ml O2 per minute.

--
"I recognize there are people who -- who don't like war."
George W. Bush (March 06, 2003)