Nokon Cable Housings

biff-<< I just ordered some Nokon cable housings for my bike. Campy stuff,
everything else is pretty standard..Anyone have any thoughts about the
housings? I would like to here both good and bad stories if you got um..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Expensive, hard to install, doesn't change the performance of the shifters.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

biff-<< I just ordered some Nokon cable housings for my bike. Campy stuff,
everything else is pretty standard..Anyone have any thoughts about the
housings? I would like to here both good and bad stories if you got um..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Expensive, hard to install, doesn't change the performance of the

shifters.

Quoted message said:

And ugly on a Campy equipped bike

Lou

No change for Campy? They made my Shimano operate much better. Braking performance is greatly improved. Shifting is crisper on drops and easier on increases.

The only weakness is the plating which soon wears off. Its best to cover the segments that will be under the bar tape with clear heatshrink. Use 3/16" clear all the way to the shifter/levers. If you cover the entire length of the housings with heatshrink, you will extend the life and keep them clean. It adds a tiny bit of weight but its worth it.

If you have any segments touching carbon fiber (bars, stem etc), using the heatshrink is a must otherwise the aluminum will eventally dissolve.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

No change for Campy? They made my Shimano operate much better. Braking
performance is greatly improved. Shifting is crisper on drops and
easier on increases.

I think he meant no performance gain over decent cables and casings.
If your casing was of poor quality to begin with, then you might get a
gain in performance.
------------
Alex

Weisse Luft <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

No change for Campy? They made my Shimano operate much better. Braking
performance is greatly improved. Shifting is crisper on drops and
easier on increases.

The only weakness is the plating which soon wears off. Its best to
cover the segments that will be under the bar tape with clear
heatshrink. Use 3/16" clear all the way to the shifter/levers. If you
cover the entire length of the housings with heatshrink, you will extend
the life and keep them clean. It adds a tiny bit of weight but its
worth it.

If you have any segments touching carbon fiber (bars, stem etc), using
the heatshrink is a must otherwise the aluminum will eventally
dissolve.

It looks like Aztec has a similar product that addresses that concern:

<www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?id=19332859792&d=single&c=Repair%20Parts&sc=Cable%20and%20Housing&tc=Brake%20Sets&item_id=AC-5900>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:17:44 -0400, Alex Rodriguez <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

No change for Campy? They made my Shimano operate much better. Braking
performance is greatly improved. Shifting is crisper on drops and
easier on increases.

I think he meant no performance gain over decent cables and casings.
If your casing was of poor quality to begin with, then you might get a
gain in performance.

Also I suspect many people do not cut their housings as well as they
could, whereas the Nokon ends are (I think) very square from the
start.

JT

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Even the latest Shimano brake housing is spiral wound. The Nokon housing is much stiffer in compression, leading to a firmer feel.

Nokon also has full-length cable coverage with a PTFE liner. This keeps the cable friction minimal, preventing road dirt, spilled sports drink and the like from affecting the cable friction.

The advantage in the shifting is the bend radius of the cable forces the housing to conform. In other systems, the housing has much more stiffness which changes bend radius of the internal cable depending on tension. This causes variable friction with the housing. Nokon has constant friction over the range of cable tension and its very low.

Biff Stephens said:

I just ordered some Nokon cable housings for my bike. Campy stuff,
everything else is pretty standard..Anyone have any thoughts about
the housings? I would like to here both good and bad stories if you
got um...

Although I looked at the cable housing as it is shown on various web
sited, I haven't had it in hand but think I can see what their method
is. From appearances the housing is made of 10mm straight aluminum
tubes with (ideally) spherical countersinks on both ends. These are
alternately threaded onto a control cable together with a ball having
a similar diameter bore. The bore must be slightly larger diameter
than the cable so that the cable can pass through when curved. The
concept appears to be that the housing requires no force to bend and
that it has full circular contact at its spherical joints.

In function, the housing approximates a constant length housing but is
not entirely unchanging in length depending on cable diameter and
where that cable rides on the inside of the housing. I don't know
what the design is inside so it is not apparent whether the spheres or
the tubes furnish a bearing surface in cable curves.

As has been discussed here before, spiral wound steel cable housing is
essentially incompressible and by its springy stiffness assures smooth
curves when bent. It is not constant length but then that has never
been a problem until 30-speed MTB's began shifting from the handlebars
while moving slowly, a condition where fairly large cable bending
(length change) can occur. For this purpose Shimano developed
constant length cable housing (that should not be used for brakes).

I don't see any benefits of Nokon housing and find curious that no
enlarged cross section view or diagram is offered, something that
would quickly answer many questions. The housing does not have less
friction, nor does it serve any useful function for brakes. STI
constant length shift cable is not heavier and is truly constant
length. Where are the benefits other than claiming to save weight for
weight watchers?

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Biff Stephens said:

I just ordered some Nokon cable housings for my bike. Campy stuff,
everything else is pretty standard..Anyone have any thoughts about
the housings? I would like to here both good and bad stories if you
got um...

Although I looked at the cable housing as it is shown on various web
sited, I haven't had it in hand but think I can see what their method
is. From appearances the housing is made of 10mm straight aluminum
tubes with (ideally) spherical countersinks on both ends. These are
alternately threaded onto a control cable together with a ball having
a similar diameter bore. The bore must be slightly larger diameter
than the cable so that the cable can pass through when curved. The
concept appears to be that the housing requires no force to bend and
that it has full circular contact at its spherical joints.

In function, the housing approximates a constant length housing but is
not entirely unchanging in length depending on cable diameter and
where that cable rides on the inside of the housing. I don't know
what the design is inside so it is not apparent whether the spheres or
the tubes furnish a bearing surface in cable curves.

As has been discussed here before, spiral wound steel cable housing is
essentially incompressible and by its springy stiffness assures smooth
curves when bent. It is not constant length but then that has never
been a problem until 30-speed MTB's began shifting from the handlebars
while moving slowly, a condition where fairly large cable bending
(length change) can occur. For this purpose Shimano developed
constant length cable housing (that should not be used for brakes).

I don't see any benefits of Nokon housing and find curious that no
enlarged cross section view or diagram is offered, something that
would quickly answer many questions. The closest is at:

http://www.gravity-slaves.co.uk/main/?p=show_article&article_ID=127

The housing does not have less friction, nor does it serve any useful
function for brakes. Teflon liners can be used with spiral steel
housings as well. STI constant length shift cable is not heavier and
is truly constant length. Where are the benefits other than claiming
to save weight for weight watchers?

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

weisse-<< No change for Campy? They made my Shimano operate much better.
Braking
performance is greatly improved. Shifting is crisper on drops and
easier on increases. >><BR><BR>

Whatever. We have installed it on shimano and Campagnolo bikes and it just
changed the looks of it all. No difference in performance when compared to good
and new der and brake housing, IMHO.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Heisse Luft (aka Hot Air) said:

No change for Campy? They made my Shimano operate much better.
Braking performance is greatly improved. Shifting is crisper on
drops and easier on increases.

To what do you attribute this perceived improvement? There must be
some obvious difference. Besides, crisper is a nice word for potato(e)
chips but can you reduce that to shifting in functional terms? As I
said, I see no reason why this housing should have any functional
advantages.

Quoted message said:

Even the latest Shimano brake housing is spiral wound. The Nokon
housing is much stiffer in compression, leading to a firmer feel.

You'll have to demonstrate first that steel cable housing is more
compressible, or for that matter that it has perceptible compression.
Are we talking about shift cables or brake cables? With brakes it is
the calipers and pads that flex, not the old bugaboo of cable stretch
that keeps getting repeated. Shifting requires so little cable
tension that compression is not an issue. Bicycling is full of myth
and lore and riders regale in its repetition.

Quoted message said:

The only weakness is the plating which soon wears off. Its best to
cover the segments that will be under the bar tape with clear
heatshrink. Use 3/16" clear all the way to the shifter/levers. If
you cover the entire length of the housings with heatshrink, you
will extend the life and keep them clean. It adds a tiny bit of
weight but its worth it.

You mean anodizing. I thought that was a feature because it can be
colored to match your shoes or jersey.

Quoted message said:

If you have any segments touching carbon fiber (bars, stem etc), using
the heatshrink is a must otherwise the aluminum will eventally
dissolve.

From what do you draw this conclusion? This sounds like new bicycle
lore. Fill me in on its origin.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:40:38 GMT, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Heisse Luft (aka Hot Air) said:

No change for Campy? They made my Shimano operate much better.
Braking performance is greatly improved. Shifting is crisper on
drops and easier on increases.

To what do you attribute this perceived improvement?

I strongly suspect the difference is that the ends of the housing are
perfectly square, whereas many people do not get the ends of the
normal housing in proper shape when they cut them. So while there may
be no difference between proper installation of good quality
conventional housing, riders do notice a difference between the way
they installed housing in the past (not so well) and the Nokon stuff.

JT

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Quoted message said:

Where are the benefits other than claiming to save weight for
weight watchers?

Apparently, Nokon cables don't even save any weight:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=cables

A flaw I see with the Nokon housings is that because they
are made up of individual segments, they have virtually no
bending stiffness, so it is relatively easy to put a kink in
the inner cable.

However, they do have an interesting aesthetic, for those
who are into that kind of thing.

Mark McMaster
[email hidden]

Mark McMaster said:

Quoted message said:

Where are the benefits other than claiming to save weight for
weight watchers?

Quoted message said:

Apparently, Nokon cables don't even save any weight:

Quoted message said:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=cables

Quoted message said:

A flaw I see with the Nokon housings is that because they are made
up of individual segments, they have virtually no bending stiffness,
so it is relatively easy to put a kink in the inner cable.

Quoted message said:

However, they do have an interesting aesthetic, for those who are
into that kind of thing.

I hope the patent office didn't allow them a patent because this
string of beads on a cable is an old concept for controls. Making
some of the beads longer than others is not novel enough for patent
protection.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Mark McMaster said:

Quoted message said:

Where are the benefits other than claiming to save weight for
weight watchers?

Quoted message said:

Apparently, Nokon cables don't even save any weight:

Quoted message said:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=cables

Quoted message said:

A flaw I see with the Nokon housings is that because they are made
up of individual segments, they have virtually no bending stiffness,
so it is relatively easy to put a kink in the inner cable.

Quoted message said:

However, they do have an interesting aesthetic, for those who are
into that kind of thing.

I hope the patent office didn't allow them a patent because this
string of beads on a cable is an old concept for controls. Making
some of the beads longer than others is not novel enough for patent
protection.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Dear Jobst,

I count four patents on their web site:

http://www.nokonusa.com/NokonUSA_Home.htm

Car Fogel

[email hidden] wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Mark McMaster said:

Quoted message said:

Where are the benefits other than claiming to save weight for
weight watchers?

Quoted message said:

Apparently, Nokon cables don't even save any weight:

Quoted message said:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=cables

Quoted message said:

A flaw I see with the Nokon housings is that because they are made
up of individual segments, they have virtually no bending stiffness,
so it is relatively easy to put a kink in the inner cable.

Quoted message said:

However, they do have an interesting aesthetic, for those who are
into that kind of thing.

I hope the patent office didn't allow them a patent because this
string of beads on a cable is an old concept for controls. Making
some of the beads longer than others is not novel enough for patent
protection.

I presume it depends where they where filed whether an automatic search was
done. Even so, the patent office is there to raise revenue, so is not
overly concerned whether or not the application would stand should it need
to be challenged in court.

I expect the market not to be large enough for those who own Nokon patent,
if it exists, to be worth fighting over. If they matched the price of
common or garden Bowden wire and had the facilities to produce for
everybody, then it would be worth fighting, except Jobst reckons it
previously existed.

I'd advise anyone to think a dozen times before starting a patent
application. Once it is in the public domain, you need to be able to
protect your idea and without backing, the patent may fall by the wayside.

Trevor

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Where are the benefits other than claiming to save weight for
> weight watchers?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Apparently, Nokon cables don't even save any weight:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=cables

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A flaw I see with the Nokon housings is that because they are made
up of individual segments, they have virtually no bending stiffness,
so it is relatively easy to put a kink in the inner cable.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

However, they do have an interesting aesthetic, for those who are
into that kind of thing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I hope the patent office didn't allow them a patent because this
string of beads on a cable is an old concept for controls. Making
some of the beads longer than others is not novel enough for patent
protection.

Quoted message said:

I count four patents on their web site:

Quoted message said:

http://www.nokonusa.com/NokonUSA_Home.htm

I doubt that they cover anything useful and are probably not
dependable if challenged, much like Rolf wheel patents that fell apart
when examined. Lovelace patented the paired spoke wheel in 1890.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:59:43 GMT, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

I doubt that they cover anything useful and are probably not
dependable if challenged, much like Rolf wheel patents that fell apart
when examined. Lovelace patented the paired spoke wheel in 1890.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Patent no. 6,606,921 is here:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,606,921.WKU.&OS=PN/6,606,921&RS=PN/6,606,921
or
http://tinyurl.com/55pba

And patent no. 6,250,175 here:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,250,175.WKU.&OS=PN/6,250,175&RS=PN/6,250,175
or
http://tinyurl.com/6g2kc
================================================================

From 6,606,921:

What is claimed as new and desired to be protected by Letters Patent
is set forth in the appended claims:

1. A flexible tensile force transmitting cable system, comprising:

an axially movable cable for transmitting a tensile force;

a flexible tube for receiving said cable for axial movement of said
cable therein; and

a casing surrounding said tube for absorbing a pressure force, said
cable being axially movable relative to said tube and said casing,
said casing including a plurality of form-parts joined to one another
to form a continuous axial passageway defined by an inside dimension
of varying diameters, said form-parts having abutting end faces
between adjacent form-parts with complementary configurations enabling
dispositions of said casing along arcuate paths, said form-parts being
stringed on and traversed by said tube, said tube having an outside
diameter that is equivalent to a smallest inside diameter of said
form-parts.

2. The cable system of claim 1, wherein, for each of said form-parts,
one of said end faces thereof has a concave configuration and the
other one of said end faces thereof has a convex configuration.

3. The cable system of claim 1, wherein a first set of said form-parts
is alternately joined to a second set of said form-parts, said first
set of form-parts having opposite convex end faces, said second set of
form-parts having opposite end faces, each having one of a concave
shape and an annular shape.

4. The cable system of claim 3, wherein each of said first set of
form-parts has an inside dimension corresponding to a cross section of
said tube, said passageway in said second set of said form-parts
having an inside dimension exceeding said cross section of said tube.

5. The cable system of claim 1, wherein said tube is made of plastic.

6. The cable system of claim 1, wherein said form-parts are made of a
material selected from the group consisting of plastic and ceramic.

7. The cable system of claim 1, wherein fittings secure said casing at
opposite ends of a frame assembly.

8. A flexible tensile force transmitting cable system, comprising:

a cable for transmitting a tensile force;

a flexible tube for accommodating the cable; and

a casing surrounding said tube for absorbing a pressure force, said
cable being axially movable relative to said tube and said casing,
said casing including a plurality of form-parts joined to one another
to form a continuous axial passageway defined by an inside dimension
of varying diameters, said form-parts having abutting end faces
between successive form-parts with complementary configurations
enabling dispositions of said casing along an arcuate path, said tube
having an outside dimension corresponding to an inside dimension of
the passageway, each of said form parts having an interior recess
forming a section of said axial passageway with an interior dimension
with a diameter exceeding that of the tube for creating a space for
compensatory movement of said tube within said axial passageway when
the cable therein transmits a tensile force.

9. The cable system of claim 8, wherein said form-parts have opposite
end faces, one of the end faces thereof has a concave configuration
and the other one of said faces thereof has a convex configuration.

10. The cable system of claim 8, wherein a first set of the form-parts
is alternately joined to a second set of the form-parts, with said
first set of form-parts having opposite end faces of convex
configuration, and with said second set of form-parts having opposite
end faces of a configuration selected from the group consisting of a
concave shape and an annular shape.

11. The cable system of claim 8, wherein said tube is made of plastic.

12. The cable system of claim 8, wherein said form-parts are made of a
material selected from the group consisting of glidable plastic and
ceramic.

13. A pull cable system, comprising:

a cable for transmitting a tensile force; and

a casing surrounding said cable for absorbing a pressure force, said
cable being axially movable relative to said casing, said casing being
composed of a plurality of form-parts joined to one another in
end-to-end disposition to form a continuous axial passageway, each of
said form-parts having a circumferential cylindrical collar centrally
located thereon, said form-parts having abutting end faces between
successive form-parts with complementary configurations enabling
dispositions of said casing along an arcuate path, said axial
passageway defined by varied inside dimensions.

==================================================================
From 6,250,175:

What is claimed as new and desired to be protected by Letters Patent
is set forth in the appended claims:

1. A flexible tensile force transmitting cable system, comprising:

a cable for transmitting a tensile force;

a flexible tube receiving said cable for axial movement and having an
outside dimension; and

a casing surrounding said tube, said casing including a plurality of
form-parts joined to one another to form a continuous axial passageway
defined by an inside dimension of varying diameters, said form-parts
comprising a first set of form-parts alternately joined to a second
set of form-parts, said first set of form-parts having opposite convex
end faces, said second set of form-parts having opposite end faces,
each having one of a concave shape and an annular shape, each of said
first set of form-parts having an inside dimension corresponding to a
cross section of said tube, said passageway in said second set of said
form-parts having an inside dimension exceeding the cross section of
said tube, said form-parts having abutting end faces between adjacent
form-parts with complementary configurations enabling dispositions of
said casing along accurate paths, each dispositions of said casing
along arcuate paths, each of said form-parts having an interior recess
forming a section of said axial passageway with an interior diameter
exceeding said outside dimension of said tube.

2. A flexible tensile force transmitting cable system, comprising:

a cable for transmitting a tensile force;

a flexible tube for receiving said cable for axial movement of said
cable and having an outside diameter; and

a casing surrounding said tube, said casing including a plurality of
form-parts joined to one another to form a continuous axial passageway
defined by an inside dimension of varying diameters, said form-parts
including a first set of form-parts alternately joined to a second set
of form-parts, said first set of form-parts having opposite convex end
faces, said second set of form-parts having opposite end faces, each
having one of a concave shape and an annular shape, each of said first
set a form-parts having a circumferential cylindrical collar centrally
located thereon, said form parts having abutting end faces between
adjacent form-parts with complementary configurations enabling
dispositions of said casing along arcuate paths, each of said
form-parts having an interior recess forming a section of said axial
passageway with an interior diameter exceeding said outside dimension
of said tube.

3. A flexible tensile force transmitting cable system, comprising:

a cable for transmitting a tensile force;

a flexible tube for accommodating the cable; and

a casing surrounding said tube for absorbing a pressure force, said
casing including a plurality of form-parts joined to one another to
form a continuous axial passageway defined by an inside dimension of
varying diameters, said form-parts having abutting end faces between
successive form-parts with complementary configurations enabling
dispositions of said casing along an arcuate path, said form-parts
comprising first and second sets of form parts, said tube having an
outside dimension corresponding to an inside dimension of the
passageway, each of said form parts having an interior recess forming
a section of said axial passageway with an interior dimension with a
diameter exceeding that of the tube for creating a space for
compensatory movement of said tube within said axial passageway when
the cable therein transmits a tensile force, each of said first set of
form-parts having an inside dimension corresponding to a cross section
of said tube, with said axial passageway in said second set of
form-parts having an inside dimension exceeding the cross-section of
said tube.

4. A flexible tensile force transmitting cable system, comprising:

a cable for transmitting a tensile force, said cable extending
diagonally through a frame assembly;

fittings securing said cable system at opposite ends of said frame
assembly;

a flexible tube for accommodating the cable; and

a casing surrounding said tube for absorbing a pressure force, said
casing including a plurality of form-parts joined to one another to
form a continuous axial passageway defined by an inside dimension of
varying diameters, said form-parts having abutting end faces between
successive form-parts with complementary configurations enabling
dispositions of said casing along an arcuate path, said tube having an
outside dimension corresponding to an inside dimension of the
passageway, each of said form parts having an interior recess forming
a section of said axial passageway with an interior dimension with a
diameter exceeding that of the tube for creating a space for
compensatory movement of said tube within said axial passageway when
the cable therein transmits a tensile force.

Quoted message said:

I hope the patent office didn't allow them a patent because this
string of beads on a cable is an old concept for controls. Making
some of the beads longer than others is not novel enough for patent
protection.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

What, you're a patent lawyer now too? Just what of your many sensibilities
would be offended by the issuance of such a patent? By your own admission
you haven't actually touched the product nor seen it other than on a web
site, but now you feel competent to pass judgment on it? Gimme a break.
Are you just being pompous or does this stem from your collectivist
anti-corporate prejudices?

You crack me up Mr Brandt.

Tom