Question about White Industries MTB hubs

Quoted message said:

Approx 10 years ago I won a set of White Industries MTB hubs in a race.
Stayed in drawer until now: building wheels. I note that there is a small
(2-3mm) hole in each hub, which aligns with an inner hole when rotated to
a
certain position. My guess is this has something to do with lubrication
access, but don't have a clue as to what to do about it: what the purpose
is, etc. Please help.

Why not ask them? they're in Petaluma, CA-707 area code or whiteindustries.com.
Phil Brown

Keith Beck queried:

Quoted message said:

Approx 10 years ago I won a set of White Industries MTB hubs in a race.
Stayed in drawer until now: building wheels. I note that there is a small
(2-3mm) hole in each hub, which aligns with an inner hole when rotated to a
certain position. My guess is this has something to do with lubrication
access, but don't have a clue as to what to do about it: what the purpose
is, etc.

If these are the hubs I'm thinking of, that's an access hole for an
itsy-bitsy Allen wrench, which goes to a grub screw. If you loosen the
grub screw, you can unscrew the axle cap to replace the bearing cartridges.

These hubs are cartridge bearing units, not intended to be lubricated.

Sheldon "If Memory Serves..." Brown
+------------------------------------------------+
| Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, |
| somewhere, may be happy. --H.L. Mencken |
+------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

Keith Beck queried:

Quoted message said:

Approx 10 years ago I won a set of White Industries MTB hubs in a race.
Stayed in drawer until now: building wheels. I note that there is a small
(2-3mm) hole in each hub, which aligns with an inner hole when rotated to a
certain position. My guess is this has something to do with lubrication
access, but don't have a clue as to what to do about it: what the purpose
is, etc.

If these are the hubs I'm thinking of, that's an access hole for an
itsy-bitsy Allen wrench, which goes to a grub screw. If you loosen the
grub screw, you can unscrew the axle cap to replace the bearing
cartridges.

These hubs are cartridge bearing units, not intended to be lubricated.

You are correct. There are 3, 2 mm screws, spaced 120 degrees apart.
Loosen them to disassemble the hub (be VERY careful with the rear
hub... pawls and leaf springs can go flying everywhere if you're not
careful!).

They're nice hubs... though the old ones with the Ti axle had some
issues with the bearings crimping the axle... they did a recall and
sent out hardened steel axles for the rear. This was addressed about
10 or 11 years ago (damn I'm old!) with their rear cassette hubs.

Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Keith Beck queried:

Quoted message said:

Approx 10 years ago I won a set of White Industries MTB hubs in a race.
Stayed in drawer until now: building wheels. I note that there is a small
(2-3mm) hole in each hub, which aligns with an inner hole when rotated to a
certain position. My guess is this has something to do with lubrication
access, but don't have a clue as to what to do about it: what the purpose
is, etc.

If these are the hubs I'm thinking of, that's an access hole for an
itsy-bitsy Allen wrench, which goes to a grub screw. If you loosen the
grub screw, you can unscrew the axle cap to replace the bearing cartridges.

These hubs are cartridge bearing units, not intended to be lubricated.

Sheldon "If Memory Serves..." Brown

My memory tells me the same thing- it's a 2mm Allen, IIRC. Either
that, or I've started receiving psychic projections from Sheldon.

Jeff "psycho, maybe, but not psychic" Wills

Bill Lloyd <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

They're nice hubs... though the old ones with the Ti axle had some
issues with the bearings crimping the axle... they did a recall and
sent out hardened steel axles for the rear. This was addressed about
10 or 11 years ago (damn I'm old!) with their rear cassette hubs.

The OP got these for free I guess so the point is a bit moot. But
these were *not* "nice hubs". These were an underengineered POS from
the git go. Yes I got suckered on them. Yes, they were light and fancy
lookin'. And yes, I put a lot of miles on them and they didn't ever
break, even before the steel axle swap. But they worked like [censored] from
a maintenance standpoint. The little grub screws just weren't able to
keep the whole thing together so as to keep the lateral play out of
the hub.

(mike taffe) said:

Bill Lloyd <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

They're nice hubs... though the old ones with the Ti axle had some
issues with the bearings crimping the axle... they did a recall and
sent out hardened steel axles for the rear. This was addressed about
10 or 11 years ago (damn I'm old!) with their rear cassette hubs.

The OP got these for free I guess so the point is a bit moot. But
these were *not* "nice hubs". These were an underengineered POS from
the git go. Yes I got suckered on them. Yes, they were light and fancy
lookin'. And yes, I put a lot of miles on them and they didn't ever
break, even before the steel axle swap. But they worked like [censored] from
a maintenance standpoint. The little grub screws just weren't able to
keep the whole thing together so as to keep the lateral play out of
the hub.

Well, yes, I had some lateral play in mine as well. Though, while you
could feel it if you rocked the rim back and forth, the total play at
the *rim* was maybe 0.5 mm. Something you could NEVER tell when
riding, because the rim itself will flex more than that (and the tire,
substantially more). So I argue that a very small amount of play
wasn't that big of a deal... the hubs spun well, the pawls always
caught, etc.

I have maybe 10K miles on a couple pairs of MTB hubs. And had maybe 5K
road miles on a set I built up as race wheels for the road (I later
sold them). I wouldn't call them a POS. Sure a little play could
develop that you could never completely eliminate, but I don't think it
was nearly enough to have any impact while riding. Plus, the creep or
play was lessened by the change from Ti to steel axles.

(mike taffe) said:

The OP got these for free I guess so the point is a bit moot. But
these were *not* "nice hubs". These were an underengineered POS from
the git go. Yes I got suckered on them. Yes, they were light and fancy
lookin'. And yes, I put a lot of miles on them and they didn't ever
break, even before the steel axle swap. But they worked like [censored] from
a maintenance standpoint. The little grub screws just weren't able to
keep the whole thing together so as to keep the lateral play out of
the hub.

Spoken like a true yokel.

Cup & cone hubs (the 19th century kind like those offered by Shimano
and their clones) have to have a bit of axial preload adjusted in so
the primitive bearings won't self-destruct from being loaded on just
one ball at a time.

Modern deep-groove radial contact cartridge bearings, like those in
better hubs, work best when they are not axially preloaded. There
are two ways to be sure that the axle is not applying a thrust preload
to the bearing: There can be a means of adjustment that requires a
very delicate touch to set, because the difference between zero
endplay with minimal preload and zero endplay with significant preload
is not easy to perceive. The other way to ensure no axial preload on
the bearings is to leave just a bit of endplay so that it's obvious
the bearings are not in a bind.

Bullseye used to provide a detailed explanation of this issue along
with their hubs, because the feedback from mechanically ignorant folks
clearly illustrated that they associated any amount of axle endplay
with a mechanical problem. Minor endplay is a characteristic of a
healthy hub using industrial cartridge bearings.

Chalo Colina

Chalo wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Cup & cone hubs (the 19th century kind like those offered by Shimano
and their clones) have to have a bit of axial preload adjusted in so
the primitive bearings won't self-destruct from being loaded on just
one ball at a time.

Cup and cone bearings have been around for in excess of a century as
the most suitable bearing for bicycle wheels. Its design allows for oil
lubrication which flush away any debris due to bearing contamination or
corrosion. Lateral loading is catered for in this design without
detriment to the unit. Warped axles have little to no effect on the
efficiency nor longevity of the unit. It also has been designed to cope
with manufacturing tolerances of the 19C. This type of bearing unit has
been designed for a specific purpose and as such is unlikely to be bettered
by a unit more appropriate for electric motors.
Pre load is unnecessary and undesirable. Cup and cone bearings survive
despite poor adjustment. When a bearing is loaded in the normal manner all
balls are working. As long as quality balls are used and the bearing is
kept flushed with oil, the bearing will have an indefinite life.
My experience with damaged bearings has been due to inadequate
lubrication. Most usually when grease has been used as a fit and forget
method. I forgot with new Campag' and ended up with a corroded cup the
block side of the rear wheel after six months of summer use. Bike was
stripped and re-lubed with Castrol LM saturated with 3in1 cycle oil. No
further bearing loss. Re-oiling is done when turning resistance increases
due to the grease drying out.
Cup and cone will also cope with a broken axle.
TJ

Trevor Jeffrey said:

Cup and cone bearings have been around for in excess of a
century as the most suitable bearing for bicycle wheels.

Both plain bronze bushings and wood bearings, which preceded cup and
cone, have some of the virtues you describe as well as some uniquely
their own. However, all of them pose a requirement for proper
adjustment, unlike modern industrial cartridge bearings. The
opportunity for adjustment is the same as the opportunity for
maladjustment, which in my judgment is the cause of most failed wheel
beaings that I have serviced.

The combination of no axial adjustment, no periodic maintenance,
complete replaceability, and the lowest amount of bearing drag is an
unbeatable advantage for sealed cartridge hub bearings IMO.

Chalo Colina

Chalo wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Both plain bronze bushings and wood bearings, which preceded cup and
cone, have some of the virtues you describe as well as some uniquely
their own. However, all of them pose a requirement for proper
adjustment, unlike modern industrial cartridge bearings. The
opportunity for adjustment is the same as the opportunity for
maladjustment, which in my judgment is the cause of most failed wheel
beaings that I have serviced.

The combination of no axial adjustment, no periodic maintenance,
complete replaceability, and the lowest amount of bearing drag is an
unbeatable advantage for sealed cartridge hub bearings IMO.

Translated:
Cup &cone bearings have an inherent adjustment, cartridge bearings do
not. Cup &cone allows for the frequent replenishment of lubrication along
with the removal of damaging debris, cartridge bearings do not. Cartridge
bearings are susceptible to damage due to misalignment. Cartridge bearings
are generally sealed for life which gives them a finite lifespan, which
requires periodic replacement.

Sealed cartridge bearings have the drag of the seal. The loading taken
by a wheel means that the rolling resistance of a similarly sized bearing is
greater in a cartridge bearing due to smaller balls and four contact points
per ball instead of two.
Conclusion: Cartridge bearings are good for the bike shop.
TJ

Trevor Jeffrey said:

The loading taken
by a wheel means that the rolling resistance of a similarly sized bearing is
greater in a cartridge bearing due to smaller balls and four contact points
per ball instead of two.

I seem to recall one test with the result that Campy cup-n-cone
bearings had more drag than precision cartridge bearings (Bullseye
perhaps?).

The explanation was the conical angle of the contact in cup-n-cone
bearing: The left and right hub bearings form a V. This introduces
opposing axial forces that increase the normal load on the bearings
for a given radial load. In other words, the cones act as a "wedge"
like a V-belt in a V-pulley.

Of course, there are lots of other factors, too, that may have a
greater effect.

dianne_1234 said:

Trevor Jeffrey said:

The loading taken
by a wheel means that the rolling resistance of a similarly sized bearing is
greater in a cartridge bearing due to smaller balls and four contact points
per ball instead of two.

I seem to recall one test with the result that Campy cup-n-cone
bearings had more drag than precision cartridge bearings (Bullseye
perhaps?).

The explanation was the conical angle of the contact in cup-n-cone
bearing: The left and right hub bearings form a V. This introduces
opposing axial forces that increase the normal load on the bearings
for a given radial load. In other words, the cones act as a "wedge"
like a V-belt in a V-pulley.

Of course, there are lots of other factors, too, that may have a
greater effect.

Dear Dianne,

Possibly this is the test that you have in mind?

http://www.damonrinard.com/wheel/grignon.htm

"Bearing friction measurements shattered the myth about
Campagnolo's superior hubs. The worst bearing performance,
by a wide margin, was posted by the Shamal (0,021 N-m). The
Shamal's bearings are smooth. It is just the seals that are
so goddam tight. And this was a fully broken-in wheel. Next
worst was the Zipp (0,017 N-m). Then came the other sealed
Campy hub, a Chorus unit (0,014 N-m). The brand new sealed
cartridge bearings of the Cosmic and Cane Creek were star
performers (0,007 and 0,006 N-m). So were the well worn
unsealed cup and cone bearings on the Specialized (0,005
N-m) and those of the 20 years old Campagnolo Record hub
around which is built our 36 spokes wheel (0,007 N-m)."

"In Campagnolo's defense, it must be mentioned that both
sealed Campy hubs feature a grease injection hole and that
both units had received a generous serving of the sticky
stuff prior to winter hibernation. Neither wheel had been
ridden since."

Carl Fogel

Trevor Jeffrey said:

Cup &cone bearings have an inherent adjustment, cartridge
bearings do not.

Properly designed, hubs using cartridge bearings never need
adjustment, ever. Calling this a shortcoming is like saying clinchers
are inferior to tubulars because you can't sew them or glue them .

Quoted message said:

Cup &cone allows for the frequent replenishment of lubrication along
with the removal of damaging debris, cartridge bearings do not.

Cup & cone bearings, due to their poorly aligned nature, frequently
allow contaminants past their seals, if they even have any seals.
Therefore they must allow periodic disassembly for cleaning.

Quoted message said:

Cartridge bearings are susceptible to damage due to misalignment.

Cartridge bearings sit in precision-cut bores where they are only
subject to misalignment in the case of a bent axle. Because they do
not depend on an external axle thread for alignment, they can use an
externally smooth axle, or one of larger major diameter than a
conventional axle, or both, thus effectively preventing axle bending.

Quoted message said:

Cartridge bearings are generally sealed for life which gives them
a finite lifespan, which requires periodic replacement.

Cup & cone bearings typically admit more contaminants and always
feature looser tolerances than industrial bearing cartridges, which
gives them a finite lifespan. When they fail, they usually cannot be
replaced and must either be cobbled back together in a damaged state,
or discarded along with the wheel they are embedded in. This is in
contrast to cartridges, which are simply removed and replaced with
new, often for less than the price of new high-quality bearing balls
for a cup & cone hub.

Quoted message said:

Sealed cartridge bearings have the drag of the seal. The loading
taken by a wheel means that the rolling resistance of a similarly sized
bearing is greater in a cartridge bearing due to smaller balls and four
contact points per ball instead of two.

This would be true if the dimensional tolerances were similar between
cup & cone vs. cartridge bearings. They are not. Ordinary cartridge
bearings being industrially standardized and graded, they feature
finish and dimensions typically 10X more accurate than average cup &
cone parts, and assembled concentricity roughly 100X better. You can
feel the difference in your fingertips when you turn an axle from one
of each kind of hub.

Quoted message said:

Conclusion: Cartridge bearings are good for the bike shop.

This would be true if most bike shops did a more thorough job of
stocking bearing cartridges, and if cartridge bearing replacement were
more difficult for the end user to do. As it is, there are industrial
bearing retailers in practically every city, and bearing replacement
can be done quickly and easily by a non-expert mechanic using
ordinary, non-bike-specific tools.

I sometimes buy bearing cartridges on eBay for less than a dollar
each. If I want finer German, Japanese, Swiss, or USA-made bearings,
I can buy them nearby on any weekday. Rebuilding a smartly designed
hub can be done with a pair of crescent wrenches and a mallet in a
couple of minutes.

The biggest troubles and design mistakes with any cartridge bearing
hubs are due to the manufacturer incorporating unnecessary and
unhelpful cup & cone features to make them more familiar to people who
have serviced only cup & cone hubs. Threaded axles, adjusting
features and locknuts serve only to visit some of the cup & cone hub's
weaknesses-- chronic misadjustment and poor concentricity-- upon
cartridge bearing hubs that do not require any such features.

The cheapest cup & cone hubs are shockingly cheap, and they provide
good value given that they work at all. But it is not those hubs that
I consider a poor bargain-- it's the expensive cup & cone models that
have the same shortcomings.

I consider a cup & cone hub to be a kind of bearing cartridge that
happens to have spoke holes in it. But it's not a very good cartridge
bearing, and like all cartridge bearings it can only be thrown away
when it's worn out or damaged. It's a fine technical solution for the
conditions of, say, Pakistani cottage industry. But it's not a 21st
century First World solution worthy of a bike enthusiast's money or a
bike mechanic's time and effort.

Chalo Colina

Chalo wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Trevor Jeffrey said:

Cup &cone bearings have an inherent adjustment, cartridge
bearings do not.

Properly designed, hubs using cartridge bearings never need
adjustment, ever. Calling this a shortcoming is like saying clinchers
are inferior to tubulars because you can't sew them or glue them .

You should have used something better than this. Correctly designed
cartridge hubs have a weight penalty to bear due to the requirement of a
stiffer axle and hubshell than cup &cone. They also require a special
removal tool at greater frequencies than it is required to disassemble
cup&cone. Wired on tyres are inferior to tubulars for many reasons including
cost. The benefits of using tubs far outweigh their perceived hassle. They
are different, with practice the skill is learnt and becomes easy. Being
sewn and glued on the rim is an advantage with a puncture and I am
descending
a hill in excess of 60mph.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cup &cone allows for the frequent replenishment of lubrication along
with the removal of damaging debris, cartridge bearings do not.

Cup & cone bearings, due to their poorly aligned nature, frequently
allow contaminants past their seals, if they even have any seals.
Therefore they must allow periodic disassembly for cleaning.

The nature of the design allows misalignment in the sense of what is
required for a cartridge bearing. As a c&c remains a c&c and does not want
to imitate a bearing from a washing machine motor it does exceptionally well
despite your unfounded criticisms. Periodic disassembly is not required, a
drop of oil every 1000 miles is all that is required. The oil migrates out
between the dustcap and cone taking any debris including wear particles with
it. This facility is not available in a sealed cartridge bearing, the seal
trapping in the wear particles to cause a relatively early demise to the
bearing. Unfortunately sealed cartridge bearings do not keep contaminants
out, water in contact with the bearing seal will creep into the bearing and
quickly cause corrosion. The reason being that only small amounts of grease
lubrication are used and the antioxidant wears out relatively quickly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cartridge bearings are susceptible to damage due to misalignment.

Cartridge bearings sit in precision-cut bores where they are only
subject to misalignment in the case of a bent axle. Because they do
not depend on an external axle thread for alignment, they can use an
externally smooth axle, or one of larger major diameter than a
conventional axle, or both, thus effectively preventing axle bending.

C&c could be precision made, why waste money? The precision required
involves three cuts for a properly manufactured cartridge bearing hub rather
than the single cut and bang in the cup on a c&c system. Again the hubshell
has to be stiffer, so heavier. The use of a larger diameter axle not only
increases weight but reduces the available bearing space and so small balls
and greater rolling resistance. It is not possible to prevent axle bending
within reasonable sizes it is only possible to reduce it. Cartridge
bearings generally used in bicycles need accurate, to the extreme, alignment
because of the four point contact ball.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cartridge bearings are generally sealed for life which gives them
a finite lifespan, which requires periodic replacement.

Cup & cone bearings typically admit more contaminants and always
feature looser tolerances than industrial bearing cartridges, which
gives them a finite lifespan. When they fail, they usually cannot be
replaced and must either be cobbled back together in a damaged state,
or discarded along with the wheel they are embedded in. This is in
contrast to cartridges, which are simply removed and replaced with
new, often for less than the price of new high-quality bearing balls
for a cup & cone hub.

Cup &cone will admit more contaminants than industrial cartridge bearings
because cup and cone are found on bicycles where water is usually a major
factor(fair weather only cyclists do not apply here) and industrial
cartridge bearings of the sealed type are found on electric motors hopefully
without water splashing over their armatures. The c&c design copes
admirably with the problem due to its great capacity for an excess or
reservoir of lubricant in the form of oil saturated grease. When kept in
this state no stripping down or replacement is needed. They do not fail if
kept wet with lubricant containing antioxidant. At a bearing stockist 5000
balls were less than two small sealed bearings.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sealed cartridge bearings have the drag of the seal. The loading
taken by a wheel means that the rolling resistance of a similarly sized
bearing is greater in a cartridge bearing due to smaller balls and four
contact points per ball instead of two.

This would be true if the dimensional tolerances were similar between
cup & cone Vs. cartridge bearings. They are not. Ordinary cartridge
bearings being industrially standardized and graded, they feature
finish and dimensions typically 10X more accurate than average cup &
cone parts, and assembled concentricity roughly 100X better. You can
feel the difference in your fingertips when you turn an axle from one
of each kind of hub.

I don't know of any one who rides a bike with their fingertips. I might
as well say that this monitor in front of me has a screen 1000 times
smoother than a piece of paper, so I type better than I write. Anyone know
whether smooth paper improves handwriting? cartridge bearings deteriorate
faster than cup and cone and their rolling resistance is higher at all
stages of life than a smooth cup and cone bearing using loads found in cycle
bearings.
Industrially standardized also means one size fits all, you get what
your given. No thanks, give me the component designed for the job with 120
years usage to back it up.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Conclusion: Cartridge bearings are good for the bike shop.

This would be true if most bike shops did a more thorough job of
stocking bearing cartridges, and if cartridge bearing replacement were
more difficult for the end user to do. As it is, there are industrial
bearing retailers in practically every city, and bearing replacement
can be done quickly and easily by a non-expert mechanic using
ordinary, non-bike-specific tools.

If it requires ordinary tools to replace, the accuracy of fit is poor and
that is why it has worn and needs replacement, otherwise its 2 years old,
the antioxidant has expired and the bearing has got wet. Mechanics still
need to be skilled. Expert and professional I consider superfluous.

Rest of Chalo's post cut due to its repetition and my need of sleep.
4am utc
11:30 utc
As a sealed cartridge bearing in not designed for human powered
transport where weight is an issue, it is inappropriate to consider it for
this application.
The sizing of a typical hub does not allow an adequate size of cartridge
type bearing for the load and speed involved.
A peculiarity of cartridge bearings is that they are designed for a much
higher speed than that involved in a bicycle wheel. The stop, start and
slow conditions encountered are not catered for by the lubricant in a
standard sealed cartridge bearing. If one of the seals was broken and the
grease replenished with something more suitable for the slow nature of a
bicycle wheel then a longer service life would ensue. Not so simple
anymore, is it?
TJ

[email hidden] wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Possibly this is the test that you have in mind?

http://www.damonrinard.com/wheel/grignon.htm

"Bearing friction measurements shattered the myth about
Campagnolo's superior hubs. The worst bearing performance,
by a wide margin, was posted by the Shamal (0,021 N-m). The
Shamal's bearings are smooth. It is just the seals that are
so goddam tight. And this was a fully broken-in wheel. Next
worst was the Zipp (0,017 N-m). Then came the other sealed
Campy hub, a Chorus unit (0,014 N-m). The brand new sealed
cartridge bearings of the Cosmic and Cane Creek were star
performers (0,007 and 0,006 N-m). So were the well worn
unsealed cup and cone bearings on the Specialized (0,005
N-m) and those of the 20 years old Campagnolo Record hub
around which is built our 36 spokes wheel (0,007 N-m)."

"In Campagnolo's defense, it must be mentioned that both
sealed Campy hubs feature a grease injection hole and that
both units had received a generous serving of the sticky
stuff prior to winter hibernation. Neither wheel had been
ridden since."

The quoted text supports my statements in than cup & cone bearings are
superior through all stages of life when used for cycle hubs. Bearings
should never be packed with grease. The figures show the extra force
required. Overheating of the grease will pull the oil from the bearing
surfaces resulting in premature failure. A filled bearing is different to a
packed one.
TJ

On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:43:11 +0100, "Trevor Jeffrey"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

. . .descending
a hill in excess of 60mph.

Dear Trevor,

What hill do you descend in excess of 60 mph?

Curiously,

Carl Fogel

[email hidden] wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

What hill do you descend in excess of 60 mph?

That was not a cue to go totally off topic. The hill/mountain? is Moel
Eithinen sometimes called the Bwlch as opposed to the Old Bwlch or Bwlch
Penbarra which contains a 1in3 hairpin. It's in N. Wales.
TJ

Trevor Jeffrey said:

You should have used something better than this. Correctly designed
cartridge hubs have a weight penalty to bear due to the requirement of a
stiffer axle and hubshell than cup &cone.

Tell me then why _all_ of the lightest hubs ever made available have
used cartridge bearings (e.g. Tune, TNT, Hershey, etc.)

Quoted message said:

They also require a special
removal tool at greater frequencies than it is required to disassemble
cup&cone.

So to you, a mallet is a "special tool"? My oldest wheel has its
original bearing cartridges in it. At about 35,000 miles it is
beginning to exhibit wear and a bit of roughness in the bearing
surfaces, but no more so than the average _brand new_ cup & cone hub.

Quoted message said:

Wired on tyres are inferior to tubulars for many reasons including
cost. The benefits of using tubs far outweigh their perceived hassle.
They are different, with practice the skill is learnt and becomes easy.
Being sewn and glued on the rim is an advantage with a puncture
and I am descending a hill in excess of 60mph.

This is telling. You may place your faith in tubies at 60 mph, but I
wouldn't. I weigh about 400 lbs. and descend at that speed often
enough, and only clinchers are available in widths and casing
strengths that would allow me any confidence in doing so.

When motorcycling at up to 140+ mph, I would use only clinchers as
would any motorcyclist. But then, we misinformed motorcyclists also
use cartridge bearing hubs exclusively-- evidently because the
motorcycling environment is much gentler on them than bicycling would
be! I have some 55,000 miles on my 1100cc motorbike, which now sports
its second pair of front hub bearings.

Quoted message said:

Again the hubshell
has to be stiffer, so heavier. The use of a larger diameter axle not only
increases weight but reduces the available bearing space and so small > balls and greater rolling resistance.

You seem to be oblivious to the trend of the last 20 years in bicycle
equipment, where adoption of larger component diameters has allowed
lighter weights than ever before, with superior stiffness than was
possible before.

Of course, that is adequately illustrated by the cartridge bearing
hubs that use larger axles and fatter hub centers than cup & cone
hubs, but weigh a fraction as much.

Quoted message said:

It is not possible to prevent axle bending
within reasonable sizes it is only possible to reduce it.

Yet somehow over the course of many years I have never seen an
externally smooth cartridge bearing hub axle that was bent. During
the same span of time I've seen literally hundreds of bent threaded
axles. Coincidence?

Quoted message said:

Cartridge bearings generally used in bicycles need accurate, to the
extreme, alignment because of the four point contact ball.

There are such bearing cartridges as you describe, but they are not
generally used in bicycles. The usual kind are "double sealed deep
groove radial contact" bearings, with two contact points per ball.

Quoted message said:

industrial cartridge bearings of the sealed type are found on electric
motors hopefully without water splashing over their armatures.

--And machine tool spindles with chip-laden coolant spraying
everywhere, and motorcycle wheels, and skateboard wheels, and boat
propellor shafts, etc., etc., etc. Everywhere but bicycle wheel
bearings. Maybe bicycle manufacturers know something the rest don't?
If so, they forgot to tell their folks who make the cartridge bearing
bottom brackets and headsets.

Quoted message said:

A peculiarity of cartridge bearings is that they are designed for a much
higher speed than that involved in a bicycle wheel. The stop, start and
slow conditions encountered are not catered for by the lubricant in a
standard sealed cartridge bearing.

Funny, but when I'm, say, tapping a hole pattern on a vertical mill,
there is a lot of starting, stopping, and reversing, under heavy load,
at low rotational speed. The cartridge bearings in the spindle seem
to cope with this as well as they do with high RPM. They require
replacement only every few years and few billion rotations under load.

Quoted message said:

If one of the seals was broken and the
grease replenished with something more suitable for the slow
nature of a bicycle wheel then a longer service life would ensue.

WTB Grease Guard hubs, also licensed by Suntour, allowed just this:
They had single-sealed cartridge bearings with a grease fitting behind
them so that they could be flushed and replenished as often as desired
with no disassembly. They proved to offer no significant improvement
for most users; that is, a few years of maintenance-free use followed
by new bearings was as satisfactory as periodic regreasing in return
for slightly longer bearing life. Either one sure beats throwing
otherwise good wheels away after lots of fettling and cleaning, as is
the practice with cup & cone hubs.

Chalo Colina

Trevor Jeffrey said:

[email hidden] wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

What hill do you descend in excess of 60 mph?

That was not a cue to go totally off topic. The hill/mountain? is Moel
Eithinen sometimes called the Bwlch as opposed to the Old Bwlch or Bwlch
Penbarra which contains a 1in3 hairpin. It's in N. Wales.
TJ

Dear Trevor,

I'm not quite clear whether you mean that your hill includes
the 1 in 3 hairpin, or 33% grade, or if you mean that the
hairpin is in the other hill, but either way it seems
unlikely that anyone does 60 mph through a hairpin.

What would you say the grade is on the section where you
exceed 60 mph?

Is this the mountain bike trail that I see on the internet
when I google for bwlch, or is it a road? That is, are we
talking about a ski-resort dirt-descent specialty-downhill
or a paved road?

Carl Fogel