Armstrong/Seimoni Round 2...

mattp71 said:

Oh my god...

..."Italian authorities are now considering whether to open legal proceedings against Armstrong "for sporting fraud, violence and intimidation of a witness."

violence? He chased down a big mouth and that is violence. Sporting Fraud? What did he do that was so fraudulent?

Plz..

velonews.com6688.0.htmlOpen ↗

I guess the answer is, "No, we cannot all just get along!."

Chasing Simeoni was a dumb move. I predicted LA would regret it.

State authorities have every possibility to make unsubstantial accusations. It's just a matter of political facts.

By the way, 'intimidation' of a witness seems not so very far off the road ...

mattp71 said:

Oh my god...

..."Italian authorities are now considering whether to open legal proceedings against Armstrong "for sporting fraud, violence and intimidation of a witness."

violence? He chased down a big mouth and that is violence. Sporting Fraud? What did he do that was so fraudulent?

Plz..

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/6688.0.html

I guess the answer is, "No, we cannot all just get along!."

I'm not really fond of the fact that Arstrong chased Simeoni down (as I've mentioned in another thread) but that is just completely ridiculous!

mattp71 said:

Oh my god...

..."Italian authorities are now considering whether to open legal proceedings against Armstrong "for sporting fraud, violence and intimidation of a witness."

violence? He chased down a big mouth and that is violence. Sporting Fraud? What did he do that was so fraudulent?

Plz..

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/6688.0.html

I guess the answer is, "No, we cannot all just get along!."

I think it was a very silly move by LA - setting aside what their dispute is about.
If I was in a legal action with some - I would stay out of that persons way
come what may, on the pretext that if an action comes to court and a barrister has you in a witness box, you're going to be vulnerable.
Simeoni wasn't a threat overall to LA.
LA lost his cool on stage 18 - he may/maynot have every right to feel very annoyed at Simeoni - but this rash action could cost him dearly.

One other point - if I were LA I wouldn't try have a go at the Giro next year.
If you think the fans were bad at Alp D'Huez - the Italian (Tifosi) are very very passionate people.
They will not be impressed with LA having a go at one of their own riders.
(I don't mean to offend the Tifosi - I think that they are great fans but it only takes one hot head and I think one hot head could tarnish the reputation of the entire Tifosi).

mattp71 said:

Oh my god...

..."Italian authorities are now considering whether to open legal proceedings against Armstrong "for sporting fraud, violence and intimidation of a witness."

violence? He chased down a big mouth and that is violence. Sporting Fraud? What did he do that was so fraudulent?

Sporting fraud? The term fraud connotes deceit. The crime of "sporting fraud" would presumably be deceit regarding a sport, perhaps in relation to rigging the results. Okay. Doesn't seem like intentionally catching up to another cyclist in a breakway constitutes sporting fraud.

Violence? Although opinions on the propriety of Lance's move differ, I think there are millions of witnesses who can testify that no violence was involved.

Intimidation of a witness? Hmmm...that could be a problem. Given that it is "tradition" in the sport for the race leader to allow breakaways that do not threaten the lead and given the status of the relationship between the two riders, the spirit of competition as a basis for the chase would seem a bit weak. Furthermore, if Lance's chase is interpreted by authorities as Lance's statement that Simeone would win nothing if Lance was in the race, that could constitute economic intimidation (assuming Simeone has a chance of winning a stage, etc.). It's a stretch, but witch hunts happen - just look at Martha Stewart. It really comes down to the wording of the statute and how that wording has been interpreted.

And people worried this Tour might be boring. Pshawww!

Catherine

Tenderfoot said:

Sporting fraud? The term fraud connotes deceit. The crime of "sporting fraud" would presumably be deceit regarding a sport, perhaps in relation to rigging the results. Okay. Doesn't seem like intentionally catching up to another cyclist in a breakway constitutes sporting fraud.

Violence? Although opinions on the propriety of Lance's move differ, I think there are millions of witnesses who can testify that no violence was involved.

Intimidation of a witness? Hmmm...that could be a problem. Given that it is "tradition" in the sport for the race leader to allow breakaways that do not threaten the lead and given the status of the relationship between the two riders, the spirit of competition as a basis for the chase would seem a bit weak. Furthermore, if Lance's chase is interpreted by authorities as Lance's statement that Simeone would win nothing if Lance was in the race, that could constitute economic intimidation (assuming Simeone has a chance of winning a stage, etc.). It's a stretch, but witch hunts happen - just look at Martha Stewart. It really comes down to the wording of the statute and how that wording has been interpreted.

And people worried this Tour might be boring. Pshawww!

Catherine

I am Italian and I am getting pretty upset at what the Italian authorities are saying and may be doing against Lance. To me it is like playing stupid childish games! what's up with that? Can they take it that he won again? I do not get it!

mareblu said:

I am Italian and I am getting pretty upset at what the Italian authorities are saying and may be doing against Lance. To me it is like playing stupid childish games! what's up with that? Can they take it that he won again? I do not get it!

Italian courts are pretty well known for unusal legal action. For a decade now they have been pursuing legal action against the two owners of a Formula 1 racing team, Williams, because one their cars had a mechanical failure resulting in the death of a driver.

What really gets me about this Armstrong deal is how can Italian courts have jurisdiction over events occuring in France? Maybe an attorney can pipe in here and set me straight.

All that being said I think Armstrong's move was vindictive and petty. He deserves to get a bit of heat for it.

IMO this is a fairly transparent move by someone in the Italian govt to keep LA out of Italy and out of future Giros. No country is going to extradite LA based on the facts shown worldwide in Stage 18, but if LA sets foot on Italian soil, no extradition needed.... they can "investigate and interrogate".

Simeoni is dead meat. The more bad things happen to LA in connection with Simeoni, the "deader" Simeoni is in the peloton. Ask yourself, when LA is in the peloton:

-- Who would want to be in a breakaway that Simeoni is in?
-- Who would want to be seen as being too friendly (or perhaps even friendly) to Simeoni, if they themselves hope for favors from LA (e.g., allowing them in breakaways, unexpected but important needs they may have in races over time)?
-- How useful will Simeoni be strategically on a team, if LA is going to focus on Simeoni?
-- Who would assist Simeoni in the peloton except his own teammates, if the potential assistor thinks he might need LA's assistance one day?

😄

Looks to me like a lot of people cutting their own throats. Lance, Simeoni, the Italian government and everyone else needs to just chill and let the whole issue run its course. Simeoni is destroying his career with the help of the Italian authorities. Armstrong can retire tomorrow and be fat and happy.

Maybe it was a dumb move by Lance but it was a race, right? Is there anything in the rule books that forbid chasing someone down unless they're a threat to your GC times?

The Italian authorities need to pipe down with their ridiculous threats. Simeoni needs to understand that, right or wrong, he's put himself in a position to feel some heat and Armstrong needs to just forget he's there when the two are in the same race.

musette said:

Simeoni is dead meat. The more bad things happen to LA in connection with Simeoni, the "deader" Simeoni is in the peloton. Ask yourself, when LA is in the peloton:

-- Who would want to be in a breakaway that Simeoni is in?
-- Who would want to be seen as being too friendly (or perhaps even friendly) to Simeoni, if they themselves hope for favors from LA (e.g., allowing them in breakaways, unexpected but important needs they may have in races over time)?
-- How useful will Simeoni be strategically on a team, if LA is going to focus on Simeoni?
-- Who would assist Simeoni in the peloton except his own teammates, if the potential assistor thinks he might need LA's assistance one day?

Good arguments for the prosecution, if they will go for 'intimidating a witness'.

By the way, there is an interesting article in the 'Daily Peloton'.

dailypeloton.comdisplayarticle.aspOpen ↗

babylou said:

Italian courts are pretty well known for unusal legal action. For a decade now they have been pursuing legal action against the two owners of a Formula 1 racing team, Williams, because one their cars had a mechanical failure resulting in the death of a driver.

What really gets me about this Armstrong deal is how can Italian courts have jurisdiction over events occuring in France? Maybe an attorney can pipe in here and set me straight.

All that being said I think Armstrong's move was vindictive and petty. He deserves to get a bit of heat for it.

You make it sound like the Italian Courts are some sort of dilletantes.

The Formula 1 crash in question refers to Aryton Senna : one of the greatest
F1 drivers ever.

I think that this would constitute a judicial investigation.

musette said:

Simeoni is dead meat. The more bad things happen to LA in connection with Simeoni, the "deader" Simeoni is in the peloton. Ask yourself, when LA is in the peloton:

-- Who would want to be in a breakaway that Simeoni is in?
-- Who would want to be seen as being too friendly (or perhaps even friendly) to Simeoni, if they themselves hope for favors from LA (e.g., allowing them in breakaways, unexpected but important needs they may have in races over time)?
-- How useful will Simeoni be strategically on a team, if LA is going to focus on Simeoni?
-- Who would assist Simeoni in the peloton except his own teammates, if the potential assistor thinks he might need LA's assistance one day?

😄

Cosidering that your hero only races three weeks in every year - all of your points above are defunct.

limerickman said:

Cosidering that your hero only races three weeks in every year - all of your points above are defunct.

Actually Andrea Peron said on Procyclingnews.com that the peleton would not have let Simeoni win under any circumstances but he would have preferred if Lance had just wound up the USPS train to run him down. Sounds to me like Simeoni isn't very popular in the cycling world and his future value to any team must be limited.

limerickman said:

You make it sound like the Italian Courts are some sort of dilletantes.

The Formula 1 crash in question refers to Aryton Senna : one of the greatest
F1 drivers ever.

I think that this would constitute a judicial investigation.

I would argue that as an Formula 1 driver, you're assuming all of the risks involved in the sport when you sign your million dollar contract and strap yourself into the driver's seat. Bringing charges against the team for a mechanical failure is ridiculous. JMO.

limerickman said:

Cosidering that your hero only races three weeks in every year - all of your points above are defunct.

Okay, let's rephrase it then. Simeoni is dead in the water in the TdF until Armstrong is no longer racing in it. I would guess that other USPS (Discovery Network) riders aren't going to exactly make life easy for Simeoni either. He's made his bed. Nighty night.

meehs said:

Okay, let's rephrase it then. Simeoni is dead in the water in the TdF until Armstrong is no longer racing in it. I would guess that other USPS (Discovery Network) riders aren't going to exactly make life easy for Simeoni either. He's made his bed. Nighty night.

I think you over estimate the level of support for Armstrong's actions.

I think it was a very very foolish move by Armstrong.
Why did he do it ?
Simeoni never accused LA of any wrongdoing.
He accused Ferrari and Armstrong then waded in and called Simeoni a liar for accusing Ferrari.
Simeoni then sued Armstrong for slander.

Simeoni's testimony in respect of Ferrari has nothing to do with Armstrong.
Or has it ?
Why did Armstrong get so defensive and start calling Simeoni a liar ?
Why did Armstrong feel the need to defend Ferrari ?

There is more to this than meets the eye.

limerickman said:

Cosidering that your hero only races three weeks in every year - all of your points above are defunct.

Ummmm. Take a look where he's racing this weekend. You may now remove your foot from your mouth. 😄

DTMwood said:

Ummmm. Take a look where he's racing this weekend. You may now remove your foot from your mouth. 😄

He's taking part in criteriums - standard stuff for a TDF winner and the TDF
podium placements.

I was referring to races - not criteriums.

limerickman said:

He's taking part in criteriums - standard stuff for a TDF winner and the TDF
podium placements.

I was referring to races - not criteriums.

Point taken