Armstrong/Seimoni Round 2...

birdman23 said:

Source please. The articles I have read about this say nothing of BMS.
Never mind the source thing I am now convinced every rider in the peloton is a doper. This must be why Lance declined going to the Olympics right? There, that was a freebie for your arsenal of speculation Limerickman.

Channel 4 News.

antoineg said:

If by speculation and hearsay you discount Emma O'Reilly, then OK.

If that's all it took, then a lot of cyclists might be more superior, even without going through cancer. You act like he's the only guy that trains. Look, he's a specimen to be sure but it's not like he's competing against Barney Rubble.

Not true. Former USPS riders have insinuated it.

Laughable. Show me the "proof" that EPO doesn't work. EPO is huge. Virenque is the all-team leader in King of the Mountains, Millar was world time-trial champion. Rumsas took third in the TdF.

Not sure, but some knowledgable estimates put the incidence of EPO use as high as 90%. Former rider knowledgable, not internet yahoo.

Doesn't stop most people.

Armstrong is not under investigation for doping right now, that I know of.

That's your judgment, and as I pointed out, would you take cocaine for $10,000,000 a year? Many would. People do stupid [censored] all the time for way less of a payday than Lance gets.

That's my judgement. Doping is very widespread in sports, and it's naive to think otherwise.

Dude, you've totally missed the point (as usual) I know that you can shoot all kinds of holes in those arguments just like another poster has already shot holes in yours. You're making my point exactly!!! If you're going to list a bunch of flimsy circumstantail, speculative, BS points of "evidence", then so am I. Do you get it now???? Holy [censored]!

meehs said:

HGH is used to treat a number of different conditions and from what I understand it's becoming a new "supplement of choice" in the battle against aging (at least for those who are adverse to exercising and watching their diet 😄 ). So there a a number of ways BMS could profit from distribution of the drug outside of drug cheats.

Anyway what am I missing? How are you implying that this ties into Armstrong being a doper??? Because this Porter woman made the implication that BMS might be profiting from sport cheats? More speculation? Like I said, this time we're really grasping at straws. Sorry.

The question was - what was the connection of BMS to LA.
I said that BMS were commercial sponsors of LA.

I asked the question - could BMS also be providing bio-tech suppliments to LA
as an addendum to Antoineg's list of reasons about LA.

By coincidence, Channel 4 news (20 mins) after I posted that question, had an exclusive report stating that Southampton University have revealed a test
for HGH.
According to their report, BMS are the primary worldwide company for the development of HGH.

limerickman said:

The question was - what was the connection of BMS to LA.
I said that BMS were commercial sponsors of LA.

I asked the question - could BMS also be providing bio-tech suppliments to LA
as an addendum to Antoineg's list of reasons about LA.

By coincidence, Channel 4 news (20 mins) after I posted that question, had an exclusive report stating that Southampton University have revealed a test
for HGH.
According to their report, BMS are the primary worldwide company for the development of HGH.

Go to BMS website and do a search for Human Growth Hormone. 0 results.

Folks - are we flogging this whole subject of LA is he/isn't he to death at this point ?

I don't know about you guys, but my mail box is bloody packed with - ABC has just replied to subject 123 !

I'm up to 1,300 mailed replies here !!!

And the majority of those replies are in respect of LA - not that LA could (or should) give two hoots about what I think about him !!

No one is going to be persuaded to change sides - anyway.

meehs said:

Holy [censored]!

Holy [censored]!!!! All together now...

I hate to generalize, but LA supporters apparently think:

1) Fillipo Simeoni is liar
2) Greg Lemond is a liar
3) Emma O'Reilly is a liar
4) David Walsh is a liar
5) [censored] Boet is a liar
6) Jesus Manzano is a liar
7) French journalists are liars
8) Some former USPS riders are liars
9) EPO is of no benefit to cyclists
10) Hardly anybody uses EPO anyway
11) There is no way to beat or circumvent a drug test
12) There are no undetectable drugs
13) No one trains as hard as Lance

Of the above, I might buy #13. All the rest are hard to swallow in total.

birdman23 said:

Go to BMS website and do a search for Human Growth Hormone. 0 results.

I was quoting Channel 4.

While I think of it - have you checked every company that BMS trades as ?
Have you checked every company that BMS is a majority shareholder in ?
I am not being facetious - there is a good reason for my asking.

For example Johnson and Johnson trade here in Ireland under various company names : Vistakon, Centocor.
These companies are J&J companies but they do not trade under J&J.

limerickman said:

The question was - what was the connection of BMS to LA.
I said that BMS were commercial sponsors of LA.

Ummmm.... Actually, you said that LA had close relationships with "several bio-tech companies" (or something like that). Myself and another poster were the ones who identified BMS (only one company). No one asked what Armstrong's connection was that I know of. Again we were the ones saying that they were a commercial sponsor of LA and the company that provided the medications that were used to treat his cancer. His connection is well known here in the US.

limerickman said:

I asked the question - could BMS also be providing bio-tech suppliments to LA
as an addendum to Antoineg's list of reasons about LA.

Yeah, and I said that it would be absurd to think they'd provide illegal drugs to their own poster boy when if he were caught it would destroy their companie's credibility. I also said you were grasping at straws. I still believe both statements to be true.

limerickman said:

By coincidence, Channel 4 news (20 mins) after I posted that question, had an exclusive report stating that Southampton University have revealed a test
for HGH.
According to their report, BMS are the primary worldwide company for the development of HGH.

Okay so there's a new test for HGH and BMS produces and sells HGH. They also produced three medications that were vital in saving Lance's life when he was dying of cancer. I just don't see any connection here at all. Sorry.

limerickman said:

I was quoting Channel 4.

While I think of it - have you checked every company that BMS trades as ?
Have you checked every company that BMS is a majority shareholder in ?
I am not being facetious - there is a good reason for my asking.

For example Johnson and Johnson trade here in Ireland under various company names : Vistakon, Centocor.
These companies are J&J companies but they do not trade under J&J.

You're totally grasping at straws trying to make this yet another point of circumstantial "evidence" in my opinion. Yeah, BMS has LA as their poster boy. Maybe they manufacture HGH... But so what???

limerickman said:

Folks - are we flogging this whole subject of LA is he/isn't he to death at this point ?

I don't know about you guys, but my mail box is bloody packed with - ABC has just replied to subject 123 !

I'm up to 1,300 mailed replies here !!!

And the majority of those replies are in respect of LA - not that LA could (or should) give two hoots about what I think about him !!

No one is going to be persuaded to change sides - anyway.

Agreed. Why do you waste so much of your time replying with the same old tired arguments? Sorry I couldn't resist, I truly meant that as a joke. Truth be known most of my replies are related to this subject and just earlier today I posted in another thread how sick and tired I am of this debate. I also said I was going to ignore any post related to doping and here I am hacking it out. People are entitled to their opinions but the amount of speculation, heresay, conjecture, etc is getting so old. People can make a story out of anything if they truly want to. Some choose to believe the positive and some choose to believe the negative. We are all stubborn and entrenched in our ideas and no one will change that. The thing that pisses me off is that Lance has to have an asterisk by his name but to sling mud on any other prominant rider is uncouth and improper by many standards. Who says Eddy didn't dope, or Indurain, or Hinault. Hell, dope has been around forever. A Brit died on Ventoux in the sixties because of amphetamines (can't remember his name). But now I am trampling on hallowed ground and how dare I suggest such heresy! I am sure if we wanted to waste our time we could all go back through the annals of history and look into the shadows of the great ones and find stuff that could be misconstrued to show they weren't legitimate as well.

Food for thought.

meehs said:

Ummmm.... Actually, you said that LA had close relationships with "several bio-tech companies" (or something like that). Myself and another poster were the ones who identified BMS (only one company). No one asked what Armstrong's connection was that I know of. Again we were the ones saying that they were a commercial sponsor of LA and the company that provided the medications that were used to treat his cancer. His connection is well known here in the US.

Yeah, and I said that it would be absurd to think they'd provide illegal drugs to their own poster boy when if he were caught it would destroy their companie's credibility. I also said you were grasping at straws. I still believe both statements to be true.

Okay so there's a new test for HGH and BMS produces and sells HGH. They also produced three medications that were vital in saving Lance's life when he was dying of cancer. I just don't see any connection here at all. Sorry.

I asked the question - speculatively (if that's a word).
I was aware that he was sponsored by them when I asked the question.
What I was trying to convey was - could these companies be supplying him
with product ?
If you're saying to me that BMS wouldn't do such a thing, I'll take that on board.

limerickman said:

I was quoting Channel 4.

While I think of it - have you checked every company that BMS trades as ?
Have you checked every company that BMS is a majority shareholder in ?
I am not being facetious - there is a good reason for my asking.

For example Johnson and Johnson trade here in Ireland under various company names : Vistakon, Centocor.
These companies are J&J companies but they do not trade under J&J.

I was just curious to find out the source. I don't believe the media just because they say so. 😉

limerickman said:

Folks - are we flogging this whole subject of LA is he/isn't he to death at this point ?

I don't know about you guys, but my mail box is bloody packed with - ABC has just replied to subject 123 !

I'm up to 1,300 mailed replies here !!!

And the majority of those replies are in respect of LA - not that LA could (or should) give two hoots about what I think about him !!

No one is going to be persuaded to change sides - anyway.

You make an excellent point. I'm getting really tired of debating the issue! Sorry about your stuffed inbox, but for the record; none of those e-mails are from me! 😄 If I were you I think I'd consider just highlighting them all and pressing the delete button!

birdman23 said:

Agreed. Why do you waste so much of your time replying with the same old tired arguments? Sorry I couldn't resist, I truly meant that as a joke. Truth be known most of my replies are related to this subject and just earlier today I posted in another thread how sick and tired I am of this debate. I also said I was going to ignore any post related to doping and here I am hacking it out. People are entitled to their opinions but the amount of speculation, heresay, conjecture, etc is getting so old. People can make a story out of anything if they truly want to. Some choose to believe the positive and some choose to believe the negative. We are all stubborn and entrenched in our ideas and no one will change that. The thing that pisses me off is that Lance has to have an asterisk by his name but to sling mud on any other prominant rider is uncouth and improper by many standards. Who says Eddy didn't dope, or Indurain, or Hinault. Hell, dope has been around forever. A Brit died on Ventoux in the sixties because of amphetamines (can't remember his name). But now I am trampling on hallowed ground and how dare I suggest such heresy! I am sure if we wanted to waste our time we could all go back through the annals of history and look into the shadows of the great ones and find stuff that could be misconstrued to show they weren't legitimate as well.

Food for thought.

thank God !
Tom Simpson was the rider who died.

This discussion could go on for ever - and I am tired of rehashing the same
lines of argument because with respect, I have zero chance of changing your minds anyway !

limerickman said:

I asked the question - speculatively (if that's a word).
I was aware that he was sponsored by them when I asked the question.
What I was trying to convey was - could these companies be supplying him
with product ?
If you're saying to me that BMS wouldn't do such a thing, I'll take that on board.

Don't get me wrong Limerickman, I can't say that BMS wouldn't do such a thing, only that I personally find it hard to believe that they would. With that I think I'm going to take a break from this endless debate and see if I can find some other interesting topic to read about! Can you tell how busy I am at work? 😄

limerickman said:

Southampton University tonight announced the first ever test to detect
Human Growth Hormone.
The IOC have requested this test to be used in Athens and the test will be used in Athens.
So what does have to do with Bristol Myers ?

Dr Caroline Porter project manager at Southampton University named Bristol
Myers Squibb as the leading developer of HGH in the world.
HGH has been undectable - until now that is.
Southampton University's tests can detect HGH usage within the last 36 hours and have a secondary test which can detect HGH usage during the past 84 hours.

Quote Porter "this development is radical. The bio-technology companies
are interested in profit and will develope drugs for profit primarily.
The ethical question as to how those drugs are used is immaterial.
Sport generates £26 billion per year.
The drug companies are not particularly concerned with helping the drug detection agencies in the detection of performance enhancing drugs in sport.
This new test is a positive step against the cheats - and it is also a step against the profittering of those bio-tech companies who distribute these drugs and have no concern who or how their end product is used".

This test sounds useless. The majority of GH effects persist greater than 1 week. 84 hours?
Hmm lets see why don't I stop using it a week before!

Quoted post said:

The drug companies are not particularly concerned with helping the drug detection agencies in the detection of performance enhancing drugs in sport.

In all fairness, catching a few drug doping athletes is not going to make them a lot of money, nor is it a significant public health problem that warrants large sums of research dollars.
By the way Amgen assited the IOC in developing the test for Darbopoietin (aranesp- long acting EPO)

limerickman said:

thank God !
Tom Simpson was the rider who died.

This discussion could go on for ever - and I am tired of rehashing the same
lines of argument because with respect, I have zero chance of changing your minds anyway !

Thanks for the name. I couldn't remember it.

And by the same token we have zero chance of changing yours. Truce?

Now can we all go back to talking about cool stuff like new bikes, how much we love the sport, rider's hot wives/girlfriends. ha ha
Lim you said Virenque's wife was quite attractive in another post. Know where any pictures are?

meehs said:

You make an excellent point. I'm getting really tired of debating the issue! Sorry about your stuffed inbox, but for the record; none of those e-mails are from me! 😄 If I were you I think I'd consider just highlighting them all and pressing the delete button!

Meehs, I left the instant email notification indicator on - when I started posting.

So everytime someone replies, I get automatic notification in MS Outlook.
I came home the other day with 93 messages from various threads !
Bush V Kerry is the worst - I've been out of that thread for weeks but every
time someone contribtes a message, I get told "ABC has just replied to Bush V Kerry".

Who are you voting for anyway ?
ONLY JOKING - I DON'T WANT TO START WW3 !!

limerickman said:

thank God !
Tom Simpson was the rider who died.

This discussion could go on for ever - and I am tired of rehashing the same
lines of argument because with respect, I have zero chance of changing your minds anyway !

Speaking of which (and as a welcome change of topic) the book "Put Me Back On My Bike" is a biography of Tom Simpson. It's a good book to read if you're a cycling fan. Which is the one thing here that most of us can agree on!

limerickman said:

Meehs, I left the instant email notification indicator on - when I started posting.

So everytime someone replies, I get automatic notification in MS Outlook.
I came home the other day with 93 messages from various threads !
Bush V Kerry is the worst - I've been out of that thread for weeks but every
time someone contribtes a message, I get told "ABC has just replied to Bush V Kerry".

Who are you voting for anyway ?
ONLY JOKING - I DON'T WANT TO START WW3 !!

93 messages??? You really are getting swamped! Who am I voting for? Well, let me explain my political views... 😄