ARRRRRGH

Luigi de Guzman said:

I must suck at flat-fixing.

Quoted message said:

Many moons ago, I had a flat. I patched it. It held air. Life was
good.

Quoted message said:

I went away for a couple of weeks, during which my bicycle
languished on its hook. now that I come back to it--the tire is
flat. No problem, I'll just pump it up--and then I hear the sharp
hiss.

Quoted message said:

Do patched tires *always* continue to leak? or is my patching bad?

Quoted message said:

I'll just slap a new tube on it this afternoon and re-teach myself
how to patch. ugh.

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8b.1.html

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

"Luigi de Guzman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I must suck at flat-fixing.

<<snip..>>

Quoted message said:

Do patched tires *always* continue to leak? or is my patching bad?

I've patched probably...200 tubes. I never enjoy it and I never know if
it's going to work. I was doing it in the confines of a nicely appointed
shop..doing it on the road while sweating and rushing, that's a horror I
could do without. I tried to sell new tubes whenever possible...usually
cheaper than the time it takes to patch one. So don't feel too bad..

Cheers,

Scott..

Luigi,

Just follow the directions in the patch kit to the letter.
Avoid the FAQ because it's full of bad information on
this subject.

Also, don't assume that the patch failed. Did you
forget to remove the culprit from your tire before
putting the tube back in? Or perhaps there was more
than one hole to begin with.

Robert

Luigi who? snipes,

Quoted message said:

Just follow the directions in the patch kit to the letter. Avoid
the FAQ because it's full of bad information on this subject.

That's a pretty broad brush you use without specifics. Wold you
clarify what it is in the the referenced FAQ that you find "bad
information". If not, then I take it you are just another disgruntled
sniper that arise here on occasion, usually under an alias. You
wouldn't want to be quoted to your face on this would you?

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8b.1.html

Quoted message said:

Also, don't assume that the patch failed. Did you forget to remove
the culprit from your tire before putting the tube back in? Or
perhaps there was more than one hole to begin with.

That should be evident on second inspection, after it went flat again.
Was the patch leaking or was there another hole? The reason for the
sandpaper in the patch kit is unknown to many of those who write the
instructions, something that is apparent from the advice to "rough up
the tube" before applying glue.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Luigi de Guzman wrote -

Quoted message said:

I must suck at flat-fixing.

Not so - whilst there are no doubt many sound technical reasons for why some
patches don't work, the real reason was that the Puncture Gods thought they
had had insufficient sport with you and changing tyres in a nice warm garage
with unfrozen fingers really wasn't much of a penance was it ?

I find making offerings of not quite worn tyres (esp the rear) before they
are embarrassingly thin in the tread tends to appease the PG's.

Demonstrating unseemly pride by making statements about how many months /
klms it has been since a puncture is a dead set invitation for retribution,
and vengeance will be theirs.

best, Andrew

"But riding is my special gift, my chiefest, sole delight;
Just ask a wild duck can it swim, a wildcat can it fight...
I'll ride this here two-wheeled concern, right straight away, at sight."
A B 'Banjo' Patterson - "Mulga Bill" 25 July 1896.

Luigi de Guzman said:

I must suck at flat-fixing.

Many moons ago, I had a flat. I patched it. It held air. Life was
good.

I went away for a couple of weeks, during which my bicycle languished
on its hook. now that I come back to it--the tire is flat. No
problem, I'll just pump it up--and then I hear the sharp hiss.

Do patched tires *always* continue to leak? or is my patching bad?

I'll just slap a new tube on it this afternoon and re-teach myself how
to patch. ugh.

I've found that the glueless patches work well as long as you don't
let the tires go fairly soft. Then they seem to wrinkle and leak -
but on bikes that I ride daily they seem to last pretty much forever.

What kind of patch did you use?

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Jobst Brandt wrote:

<< That's a pretty broad brush you use without specifics. Wold you
clarify what it is in the the referenced FAQ that you find "bad
information". If not, then I take it you are just another disgruntled
sniper that arise here on occasion, usually under an alias. You
wouldn't want to be quoted to your face on this would you? >>

We've gone over this before. Quote this: You must let
the "glue" dry completely before applying the patch, as
directed in the REMA patch kit, which on step four of
the directions has a picture of a clock and the words
"min. 5 min." You contend that patches fail even when
they are applied correctly, if they are used
immediately after patching, and that is simply not the
case. In fact the REMA patches are a virtually fail-safe
method when used correctly, and the patched tube can
be used immediately after patching with no problems
whatsoever. Your patches are prone to failure for the
simple reason that you don't let the glue dry near long
enough before applying the patch.

Robert

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 23:14:11 GMT, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

The reason for the
sandpaper in the patch kit is unknown to many of those who write the
instructions, something that is apparent from the advice to "rough up
the tube" before applying glue.

It is more important than ever to roughen the surface to remove
oxidation and antistick materials like powdered mica, and antioxidants
that migrate to the surface such as hindered amines and cyanuric acid
salts, etc.
In recent years, the solvent in the cement, which used to be benzene,
has been replaced with 1,1,1-trichlorethylene or perchloroethylene to
Save The World From Cancer.
The modern cements are not as agressively solvating to the rubber as
the benzene products were. It was always good practice to scuff the
rubber, but now it is more needed.

Luigi de Guzman <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I must suck at flat-fixing.

Many moons ago, I had a flat. I patched it. It held air. Life was
good.

I went away for a couple of weeks, during which my bicycle languished
on its hook. now that I come back to it--the tire is flat. No
problem, I'll just pump it up--and then I hear the sharp hiss.

Do patched tires *always* continue to leak? or is my patching bad?

I'll just slap a new tube on it this afternoon and re-teach myself how
to patch. ugh.

-Luigi

Patch or no patch, your tires would still have lost a small amount of air
over a few weeks.

As a last resort, I remove the tube and immerse it in a sink when searching
for intermittent or multiple leaks. Also I note the orientation of the
tube to the tire so I can examine the tire for remnants of whatever caused
the puncture in the first place. Rusty staples or wire cause most of my
punctures.

I generally ride a patch immediately after slapping it on with no noticable
ill effects.

Robert who? said:

Quoted message said:

That's a pretty broad brush you use without specifics. Wold you
clarify what it is in the the referenced FAQ that you find "bad
information". If not, then I take it you are just another
disgruntled sniper that arise here on occasion, usually under an
alias. You wouldn't want to be quoted to your face on this would
you?

Quoted message said:

We've gone over this before. Quote this: You must let the "glue"
dry completely before applying the patch, as directed in the REMA
patch kit, which on step four of the directions has a picture of a
clock and the words "min. 5 min." You contend that patches fail
even when they are applied correctly, if they are used immediately
after patching, and that is simply not the case. In fact the REMA
patches are a virtually fail-safe method when used correctly, and
the patched tube can be used immediately after patching with no
problems whatsoever. Your patches are prone to failure for the
simple reason that you don't let the glue dry near long enough
before applying the patch.

That's why I offer a test so you can convince yourself of this. Try
to pull off a patch that you just applied by the way you cite and then
try to pull one off after it's been in place for more than a day. The
only reasonable way to remove a well cured patch is to heat it, as has
also been explained. Press the patch on the tube against a hot frying
pan until the heat is apparent to the pressing thumb and the patch will
then peel off like the freshly applied one.

You are just placing too much faith in the instruction sheet.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Dave who? said:

Quoted message said:

The reason for the sandpaper in the patch kit is unknown to many of
those who write the instructions, something that is apparent from
the advice to "rough up the tube" before applying glue.

Quoted message said:

It is more important than ever to roughen the surface to remove
oxidation and antistick materials like powdered mica, and
antioxidants that migrate to the surface such as hindered amines and
cyanuric acid salts, etc.

I guess you didn't read the FAQ that was appended to the message that
explains that aspect:

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8b.1.html

Quoted message said:

In recent years, the solvent in the cement, which used to be
benzene, has been replaced with 1,1,1-trichlorethylene or
perchloroethylene to Save The World From Cancer. The modern cements
are not as agressively solvating to the rubber as the benzene
products were. It was always good practice to scuff the rubber, but
now it is more needed.

That may have been better but since most folks don't rub-it-in, there
wasn't a lot of cleansing action going on. I researched this stuff
years ago when we still had those volatiles and developed my
characterization of patch failures.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Luigi who? snipes,

Luigi wasn't sniping. The sniper in question began his post by addressing
Luigi. Luigi seems to be a pretty good guy.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Luigi de Guzman said:

I must suck at flat-fixing.

....

Quoted message said:

Do patched tires *always* continue to leak? or is my patching bad?

Um ... you might just suck at flat fixing!

Patched tires do not normally leak. I think my record for patches in
one tube was about 13, and they all held.

I'm a very slow tube patcher. I got that way by doing it too fast and
too badly while on one of my first bike tours.

I wasn't smart enough to have a spare tube, and the bad patch couldn't
be pulled off, yet couldn't be made to stop leaking. I finished the
weekend by riding three miles, pumping the tire, riding three miles,
pumping the tire...

--
-------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, omit what's between "at" and "cc"]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 17:45:34 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Luigi de Guzman said:

I must suck at flat-fixing.

Many moons ago, I had a flat. I patched it. It held air. Life was
good.

I went away for a couple of weeks, during which my bicycle languished
on its hook. now that I come back to it--the tire is flat. No
problem, I'll just pump it up--and then I hear the sharp hiss.

Do patched tires *always* continue to leak? or is my patching bad?

I'll just slap a new tube on it this afternoon and re-teach myself how
to patch. ugh.

I've found that the glueless patches work well as long as you don't
let the tires go fairly soft. Then they seem to wrinkle and leak -
but on bikes that I ride daily they seem to last pretty much forever.

What kind of patch did you use?

It was a glueless one.

I haven't actually bothered to unmount the wheel and take a good hard
look at it all yet today--I've been going to my little brothers'
soccer and baseball games, and so spent the glorious day cheering and
making myself a good-natured hooligan.

blah. today has been exhausting, and an automotive failure at the end
of it has not made it any better.

If the bike and the car are both failing hell, at least my shoes are
still good.

-Luigi

Quoted message said:

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 23:14:11 GMT, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Luigi who? snipes,

Quoted message said:

Just follow the directions in the patch kit to the letter. Avoid
the FAQ because it's full of bad information on this subject.

Just for the record, Mr. (Doctor?) Brandt, I am the OP, and I am not
sniping.

I'm only sorry that, at twenty-three, I wasn't even a twinkle in my
mother's eye when you exhaustively studied this and other
wheel-related phenomena. I have always held your technical posts in
great regard. And you could probably kick my sorry ass up and down
the mountain if it came to cycling, too.

The answer to my question then seems to be yes, my tube-patching
skills are obviously woefully deficient. mea culpa, mea maxima culpa;
ideo precor vos fratres orare pro me ad Dominum Deum nostrum.

-Luigi

Luigi de Guzman said:

I must suck at flat-fixing.

I like patching flats. It's easy and fun. I'm the kinda guy who hates to
throw anything away, and I even buy my patches loose so as to throw out
less packaging. I also rescue tubes that other people have thrown out and
patch them.

I find that if you scrape off the top bit of tube with sandpaper (not
those metal grater things), let the cement dry for long enough, and press
the patch on firmly with the tube inflated that the patches always hold
air (99% of the time).

I have had tubes that were more patches than tubes, and they worked fine.
I don't know about riding on patches right away 'cause I always wait till
I get home to put the patch on anway. Easier to carry a spare tube than
worry about patching on the road in my experience. Most of my riding is in
the city anyhow and I don't even bother to carry a tube or pump, I'll just
hop on the subway if I get a flat.

Jobst Brandt wrote in part:

<< That's why I offer a test so you can convince yourself of this... >>

I have tried to pull patches off that I have just applied, they don't come off.

I have a test for you: follow the instructions and see what happens.

<< You are just placing too much faith in the instruction sheet. >>

No, I have faith in the method instructed. I have patched hundreds of tubes
with this method on the road and do not experience the patch failures described
in the FAQ, ever.

Robert McSnipe

Luigi admitted:

<< It was a glueless one. >>

Well then all bets are off. Try a Rema Tip Top patch kit or kit of that ilk
(and pssst follow the directions so your patches will stick properly..).

Robert

Luigi de Guzman said:

It was a glueless one.

http://groups.google.com/groups?&threadm=jdjKb.11314%24Qr5.20455649%40newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net

Somebody else said:

As a last resort, I remove the tube and immerse it in a
sink when searching for intermittent or multiple leaks.

A spray bottle with water + dish detergent works great, too; the soapy
bubbles stand in place, giving you time to see them, and build up a
foam if it's a really tiny leak.
--
Rick Onanian