Cycle helmets - major study

Paul Smith said:

Hi All,

The DfT have just published a major study of cycle helmets.

roads.dft.gov.ukindex.htmOpen ↗

Which has the wonderful paragraph (Section 7):

"In terms of tone, the bicycle helmet debate can best be described as sour and tetchy. Neither side
seems willing to concede that there can be alternative points of view. Both sides can descend into
language that reflects little credit for either, for instance, expressions such as 'irresponsible
zealots who oppose legislation' find their counterpart in helmet advocates dismissed as 'do gooders'
and 'mandarins of health promotion'. This can be disappointing for those seeking enlightenment from
the debate."

Pretty much sums up urc helmet threads

Tony ;-)

--
raven-family.comraven-family.comOpen ↗

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to
adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George
Bernard Shaw

"Paul Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

The DfT have just published a major study of cycle helmets.

roads.dft.gov.ukindex.htmOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

--

Strangely a cyclist called Paul Smith died from head injuries in orpington last month.

Orpington? thats where I live. I missed that bit of sad information. Just shows how little
importance is put on cycling matters by the media. Sad but true.

SW

"Frank" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Paul Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

The DfT have just published a major study of cycle helmets.

roads.dft.gov.ukindex.htmOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

--

Strangely a cyclist called Paul Smith died from head injuries in orpington last month.

"Steve Watkin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Orpington? thats where I live. I missed that bit of sad information.

Just

Quoted message said:

shows how little importance is put on cycling matters by the media. Sad

but

Quoted message said:

true.

Yes it Happened at the junction of Crofton Road/ Poplar Avenue.

makeashorterlink.commakeashorterlink.comOpen ↗

Just a road traffic accident. When you go out for a ride how often do you see flowers tied to
railings by the road, but have no idea what happened?

"Frank" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Just a road traffic accident. When you go out for a ride how often do you see flowers tied to
railings by the road, but have no idea what happened?

I always think that they are for car crashes. I know, probably another ped. But, please, never
a cycle ...

"Steve Watkin" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"Frank" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Strangely a cyclist called Paul Smith died from head injuries in orpington last month.

Quoted message said:

Orpington? thats where I live. I missed that bit of sad information. Just shows how little
importance is put on cycling matters by the media. Sad but true. SW

I think most road deaths are given at most a couple of lines in mainly local papers (if they are
reported at all). If we were to treat cyclists deaths any more prominently it would go even further
to perpetuating the myth that cycling is dangerous.

I'm not advocating a "head in the sand" or "ignorance is bliss" approach, just balanced reporting. I
completely understand the recent reporting around the "lard [censored] in a Range Rover" case, but that
was highly unusual. Despite that I had a few people show me the article and say "See, that's why I
don't ride a bike!"

It's unfortunate that what is regarded as news-worthy are the exceptional events, but that many
people form/strengthen their opinions based on that reporting.

Graeme

Paul Smith says:

Quoted message said:

The DfT have just published a major study of cycle helmets.

There's another important paper out as well:

Anderson, ponte and Streeter, "Development of head protection for car occupants", Road and Transport
Research, March 2003 (published by the Australian Road Research Board)

Once again the Australians are in the lead, just like they were with bike helmets.

They know it makes sense.

Jeremy Parker

Jeremy Parker said:

Quoted message said:

The DfT have just published a major study of cycle helmets.

Quoted message said:

There's another important paper out as well:

Important? Are you sure?

Quoted message said:

Anderson, ponte and Streeter, "Development of head protection for car occupants", Road and
Transport Research, March 2003 (published by the Australian Road Research Board)

Quoted message said:

Once again the Australians are in the lead, just like they were with bike helmets.

Quoted message said:

They know it makes sense.

They are probably barking.

I've seen some other crazy research funded by the Australian Government, but this probably takes the
biscuit. The report does not appear to be on line, so I'll have to reserve final judgement, but it
sounds to me as if someone is having a laugh.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

"Paul Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jeremy Parker said:

Quoted message said:

The DfT have just published a major study of cycle helmets.

Quoted message said:

There's another important paper out as well:

Important? Are you sure?

Quoted message said:

Anderson, ponte and Streeter, "Development of head protection for car occupants", Road and
Transport Research, March 2003 (published by the Australian Road Research Board)

Quoted message said:

Once again the Australians are in the lead, just like they were with bike helmets.

Quoted message said:

They know it makes sense.

They are probably barking.

I've seen some other crazy research funded by the Australian Government, but this probably takes
the biscuit. The report does not appear to be on line, so I'll have to reserve final judgement,
but it sounds to me as if someone is having a laugh.
--
Paul Smith

Paul, thanks for giving the info about the DfT research. It is seriously flawed, as it doesn't
include the Australian/NZ/USA experience that helmet legislation doesn't actually make cycling any
safer, it just deters cycling.

BTW if the Oz research about helmets for car occupants is crazy, the DfT research about cycle
helmets is somewhere north of Pluto. There is no evidence that cycle helmets work, and some that
shows they are actually dangerous.

Quoted message said:

Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed cameras
cost lives

Richard Burton said:

It is seriously flawed, as it doesn't include the Australian/NZ/USA experience that helmet
legislation doesn't actually make cycling any safer, it just deters cycling.

Yes it does..

Quoted message said:

BTW if the Oz research about helmets for car occupants is crazy, the DfT research about cycle
helmets is somewhere north of Pluto. There is no evidence that cycle helmets work, and some that
shows they are actually dangerous.

I thought it was well balanced but as they said "In terms of tone, the bicycle helmet debate can
best be described as sour and tetchy. Neither side seems willing to concede that there can be
alternative points of view"

Tony

--
raven-family.comraven-family.comOpen ↗

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to
adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George
Bernard Shaw

Paul Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I've seen some other crazy research funded by the Australian Government, ...

Judging by your website you certainly seem to know all about crazy research.

(Will Watson) said:

Paul Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've seen some other crazy research funded by the Australian Government, ...

Quoted message said:

Judging by your website you certainly seem to know all about crazy research.

Like TRL421 and TRL511?
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

In message <[email hidden]>, Paul Smith
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

The DfT have just published a major study of cycle helmets.

roads.dft.gov.ukindex.htmOpen ↗

I think the main omission in this report are statistics relating head injury rates to cycle
kilometre. There is an interesting finding that head injury rates (as a proportion of all injuries)
fell during a test programme but this information would be more useful if there was an indication of
injury severity.

--
Michael MacClancy

">

Quoted message said:

I thought it was well balanced but as they said "In terms of tone, the bicycle helmet debate can
best be described as sour and tetchy. Neither

side

Quoted message said:

seems willing to concede that there can be alternative points of view"

Tony

I'm afraid I don't concur that it is balanced, and it appears to be yet another "scientific"
analysis which ignores the fact that no whole population experience which shows that helmets are in
any way effective. The summary point 7 demonstrates:

Section 7: Opinion pieces
a.. The pro-bicycle helmet group base their argument overwhelmingly on one major point: that there
is scientific evidence that, in the event of a fall, helmets substantially reduce head injury.

b.. The anti-helmet group base their argument on a wider range of issues including: compulsory
helmet wearing leads to a decline in cycling, 'risk compensation' theory negates health gains,
scientific studies are defective, the overall road environment needs to be improved.

c.. The way in which the debate has been conducted is unhelpful to those wishing to make a
balanced judgement on the issue.

In the first bullet point, the investigators don't acknowledge that all the "scientific" evidence
ain't worth a damn, and much of it has been peer-reviewed and, to be polite, found wanting. They
similarly don't acknowledge that the most telling argument of what they choose to call "anti-helmet"
(far more likely to be pro-choice, like me) is that all the whole population research shows no
benefit, and some shows negative effects. They are perfectly correct with the third bullet point
though, with the pro-choice using recent whole population, peer-reviewed sound research, and the
pro-compulsion proponents using out-of-date, peer-condemned, unsound research which proved nothing
except that the researchers were biassed.

Cheers

Rich

Richard Burton said:

SNIP

Quoted message said:

In the first bullet point, the investigators don't acknowledge that all the "scientific" evidence
ain't worth a damn, and much of it has been peer-reviewed and, to be polite, found wanting. They
similarly don't acknowledge that the most telling argument of what they choose to call
"anti-helmet" (far more likely to be pro-choice, like me) is that all the whole population research
shows no benefit, and some shows negative effects. They are perfectly correct with the third bullet
point though, with the pro-choice using recent whole population, peer-reviewed sound research, and
the pro-compulsion proponents using out-of-date, peer-condemned, unsound research which proved
nothing except that the researchers were biassed.

That's the key flaw; I don't think there exists any sizable anti-helmet lobby[1]. The debate is
between pro-compulsion and anti-compulsion.

[1] Except that, due to govt. docs such as this, I am becoming increasingly anti-helmet. All the
evidence seems to be that the agenda is to increase voluntary helmet use to a point where
compulsion can be brought in with relative ease.

In this environment every time you wear a helmet you are making a vote, however unwillingly, for
compulsory helmet laws.

Of course, such a law would make little difference to sport cycling; racing, MTB-ing etc but would
effectively kill 'utility' cycling and cycling as transport.

I don't wear a helmet. In part, to set an example and to correct the myth that cycling is dangerous.

Richard Burton said:

I'm afraid I don't concur that it is balanced, and it appears to be yet another "scientific"
analysis which ignores the fact that no whole population experience which shows that helmets are
in any way effective. The summary point 7 demonstrates:

As they point out, both sides dismiss the "evidence" and "research" of the other side. I found it a
balanced presentation of both sides. YMMV

Tony

--
raven-family.comraven-family.comOpen ↗

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to
adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George
Bernard Shaw

"[Not Responding]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

[Snip stuff I agree with totally]

Quoted message said:

I don't wear a helmet. In part, to set an example and to correct the myth that cycling is
dangerous.

You have to be careful what you say, In my own case I am covinced the dangers of cycling are
outweighed by the health benefits, but that does not mean cycling is not dangerous.

Overstating the saftey of cycling probably means Car drivers will make even less effort to be
careful around cyclists than they do already.

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Richard Burton said:

I'm afraid I don't concur that it is balanced, and it appears to be yet another "scientific"
analysis which ignores the fact that no whole population experience which shows that helmets are
in any way effective. The summary point 7 demonstrates:

As they point out, both sides dismiss the "evidence" and "research" of

the

Quoted message said:

other side. I found it a balanced presentation of both sides. YMMV

Tony

How can it be balanced when it ignores the largest piece of evidence, which coincidentally, doesn't
support its preconceived ideas?

And how come a research project about the effectiveness of cycle helmets also investigates helmet
promotion and helmet legislation, neither of which would be worth doing unless they already knew
what the results of the investigation into their effectiveness was going to be?

No, this is just another pro-compulsion justification exercise, dressed up as independent. Mind you,
I don't think the DfT have much confidence in it either: every web page has the disclaimer "Although
this report was commissioned by the Department, the findings and recommendations are those of the
authors and do not necessarily represent the views of the Department for Transport" twice!

Rich

Quoted message said:

--
raven-family.comraven-family.comOpen ↗

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to
adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George
Bernard Shaw

Frank said:

"[Not Responding]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

[Snip stuff I agree with totally]

Quoted message said:

I don't wear a helmet. In part, to set an example and to correct the myth that cycling is
dangerous.

You have to be careful what you say, In my own case I am covinced the dangers of cycling are
outweighed by the health benefits, but that does not mean cycling is not dangerous.

Overstating the saftey of cycling probably means Car drivers will make even less effort to be
careful around cyclists than they do already.

Hmm. I don't rely on car drivers' concern for my safety when cycling.

A problem has arisen because of the past 20 years or so cycling campaigners have waved the banner of
'safety' in order to push for facilities on the road.

The problem is now that cycling is perceived by many as intolerably dangerous; something to
eliminated from our roads. This is why pavement riding (aka shared unsegregated paths) are often
promoted by misguided local councillors ("I know it's not ideal but it must be done to get cyclists
safely out of the way of motor cars"😉.

The public perception is that cycling is dangerous; when people hear that I commute by bike I am
often told how incredibly 'brave' I am and how they wouldn't dare do it - or allow their
children to.

Try to get a scheme of works' bikes put in place and see the H&S blokes look at you as if you'd just
suggested offering plutonium sandwiches in the canteen.

etc.

People have been scared off their bikes by, bizarrely, 20 years of cycle campaigners.

And yet, cycling (excluding racing, bmx-ing and off-road lunacy, I suppose) is pretty safe. NB. If
you do want to compare with other modes of transport then remember to compare apples with apples;
find figures that exclude children running off their drives on their first tricycle and kamikaze
unlit riders.

Try cyclenetwork.org.ukstepping.pdfOpen ↗ for a start.

Oh, back to helmets. Another downside of helmets is that they contimue to promote cycling as unsafe;
so dangerous you need a helmet.