brakes

Peter Cremasco said:

A question concerning brakes - particularly the two most common types:
the caliper brakes (anchored at one point on the fork head) and the
linear pull (anchored at two points on the fork leg).

Quoted message said:

I've ridden both kinds, and find that the linear pull is capable of
locking up the wheels with minimum effort. The caliper brakes need to be
squeezed very hard, and don't even appear to come close to locking up
the wheel.

Quoted message said:

I've mostly seen caliper brakes on roadies (or old style MTB), and the
linear pull on MTB or hybrids. I've heard that the brakes on road bikes
are much better, but be buggered if I can see how. Surely not every
roadie I've ridden has been set up wrong, as far as brakes go?

Quoted message said:

Can someone explain this to me? Is there another type of brake set up
that looks like the caliper and is much much better?

Quoted message said:

Cheers,

Quoted message said:

PeterC

Quoted message said:

---
Cheers

Quoted message said:

PeterC

I found quite a difference when I changed from single-pivot to dual-pivot
calipers. Maybe it's just a case of keeping them maintained and adjusted
properly?

Although, even properly adjusted single-pivot calipers are [censored] compared
to dual-pivots, IMHO.

--
Nick

"Peter Cremasco" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I've mostly seen caliper brakes on roadies (or old style MTB), and the
linear pull on MTB or hybrids. I've heard that the brakes on road bikes
are much better, but be buggered if I can see how. Surely not every
roadie I've ridden has been set up wrong, as far as brakes go?

In my experience, single pivot are not so good whereas
dual pivot are endo-inducing. But, to put that into
perspective, the price difference between the 2 bikes I'm
thinking of is ~50x ($70 vs $3500). Old MTB's typically
have Cantilever brakes and new mtb's have "vee" brakes.
Vee's are another type of cantilever brake, but they have
straight arms and no transverse cable. Vee's usually appear
to work better, but that is probably because they are easier
to adjust and most old-style canti's are improperly adjusted.

When you are talking about "squeeze really hard", etc, it
sounds like a "mechanical advantage" issue. You should
try to read these articles:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brakes/index.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-adjustment.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html#mechanical

It could also be the fact that the rims are dirty or the pads
are glazed. Rub down the rim's sidewall with a scourer
and run a file along the pads a few times to take off the
shine. This usually improves braking greatly.

Oh, checkout the newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech for some
really wise bike dudes and dudettes talking about this
kind of bike tech..

hth
hippy

Quoted message said:

Although, even properly adjusted single-pivot calipers are [censored] compared
to dual-pivots, IMHO.

Absolutely. I have come to road from a MTB background in the last six
months, and have found calipers to be pretty stoneage as far as
braking force and ease of use goes. My 2003 ultegra brakes are nothing
on my ancient '97 Deore XT Vees or even my other MTB's '97 LX
linear-pulls. Given a choice, Vees for me every time. Of course,
roadies love their traditions, so for now I'll just live in fear of
that car pulling out in front of me...

"blah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Absolutely. I have come to road from a MTB background in the last six
months, and have found calipers to be pretty stoneage as far as
braking force and ease of use goes. My 2003 ultegra brakes are nothing
on my ancient '97 Deore XT Vees or even my other MTB's '97 LX
linear-pulls. Given a choice, Vees for me every time. Of course,
roadies love their traditions, so for now I'll just live in fear of
that car pulling out in front of me...

But on the road bike, you'll be in front of the
car BEFORE it pulls out ;-) zoom zoom zoom

hippy

Quoted message said:

But on the road bike, you'll be in front of the
car BEFORE it pulls out ;-) zoom zoom zoom

Damn straight. Seriously, the ultegra brakes are usually fine. The
only times they've been any real problem is twice when I've been
barrelling down Whitehorse Road outbound just after Union Road; the
downhill with the crazy tram stops and both times cars have jumped
across my path from (and into) one of the side streets. Quite
disconcerting to find that the brakes do little or nothing at sixty
plus. 'Course, since then I've calmed down a little and take this into
account.
Cheers; zoom on!

"blah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But on the road bike, you'll be in front of the
car BEFORE it pulls out ;-) zoom zoom zoom

Damn straight. Seriously, the ultegra brakes are usually fine. The
only times they've been any real problem is twice when I've been
barrelling down Whitehorse Road outbound just after Union Road; the
downhill with the crazy tram stops and both times cars have jumped
across my path from (and into) one of the side streets. Quite
disconcerting to find that the brakes do little or nothing at sixty
plus. 'Course, since then I've calmed down a little and take this into
account.
Cheers; zoom on!

My Ultegras seem to pull me up okay from 70+ coming
down the mountain - much better than most other brakes
I've used (I've not used discs yet). What pads are you
using with yours? How often do you clean your braking
surface and file your pads?

Cleaning rims and scraping brake pad surfaces clean are
the most important factors in good braking I've found.
I've been using the super cheap BBB red pads for a year
or so now with no probs.

hippy

Peter Cremasco said:

I've ridden both kinds, and find that the linear pull is capable of
locking up the wheels with minimum effort. The caliper brakes need to be
squeezed very hard,

Peter, caliper brakes have less weight and air drag, and look cool.
So roadies love them. Its a pity they are not so good at stopping a
bike. For extreme cool, get a fixed-gear with _no_ brakes :-)

Peter Cremasco said:

A question concerning brakes - particularly the two most common types:
the caliper brakes (anchored at one point on the fork head) and the
linear pull (anchored at two points on the fork leg).
I've ridden both kinds, and find that the linear pull is capable of
locking up the wheels with minimum effort. The caliper brakes need to be
squeezed very hard, and don't even appear to come close to locking up
the wheel.
I've mostly seen caliper brakes on roadies (or old style MTB), and the
linear pull on MTB or hybrids. I've heard that the brakes on road bikes
are much better, but be buggered if I can see how. Surely not every
roadie I've ridden has been set up wrong, as far as brakes go?
Can someone explain this to me? Is there another type of brake set up
that looks like the caliper and is much much better?

Peter,

A cable brake system just multiplies the force from the hand to increase
the force on the brake pad. The brake lever (by definition) is a lever
and so is the caliper or cantilever at the wheel. You can only increase
the pad force for a given hand force by increasing the leverage in the
system and this reduces the pad travel. Dual pivot calipers can apply
more force to the pads than single pivot ones for a given hand force,
but have less pad movement and do not follow an untrue rim. There is no
free lunch in the design business. The above principles apply regardless
of the style of the brakes. You can't get around the physical
principles.

Hippy rightly points out the importance of good brake pads. Like him, I
have had good results with BBB and also with Kool Stop. I am not fond of
Shimano pads, especially older ones which seemed to work (and sound)
like sandpaper.

John Retchford

--

Over the last 8(ish years I have gone from campag mirage single pivots
Athena double pivots, Veloce doubles and now to Chorus Double AND singl
pivots. Campag wised up to the fact you dont NEED doubles on the back a
you can get more touch/less-lock-up and unnecessary weight The singl
back brakes are great for me as I have a tendancy to brake late an
sometimes if caught out panic and lock up the rear end. the single
makes this much harder to achiev

Could the strength of road brakes compared to mtb brakes be related t
the strentgh of the rims, perhaps

-

"flyingdutch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Could the strength of road brakes compared to mtb brakes be related to
the strentgh of the rims, perhaps?

Frame flex would play a more important role I think.
That's why trials riders (and others) fit brake boosters
to their bikes. They are locking the brakes on and
this forces the fork legs or the seatstays apart. A
booster braces the stays or fork legs and reduces
the amount that they move apart, thereby imparting
more force on the pads/rim and less on frame flex.

I have one on the GTSS:
<http://www.thehippy.net/Cycling/MyBikes/gtss/pages/138_3895.htm>
<http://www.thehippy.net/Cycling/MyBikes/gtss/pages/138_3887.htm>
<http://www.thehippy.net/Cycling/MyBikes/gtss/pages/138_3894.htm>

I'm guessing most mtb's would have stronger (less flexible)
seatstays and forks...

hippy

"flyingdutch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Could the strength of road brakes compared to mtb brakes be related to
the strentgh of the rims, perhaps?

More a case of being related to the steepness of the terrain. Road riders
look on Coonara Rd near Monbulk as steep and call it 'The Wall' 9 it might
be. But head of into the Olinda Forest nearby and try oooh... say the Black
Hole Track. A road bike brakeset would not stop you. It's an mildly
disconcerting experience when your brakes are full on and you are steadily
gathering speed.

Cheers
Peter

hippy said:

<http://www.thehippy.net/Cycling/MyBikes/gtss/pages/138_3895.htm>
<http://www.thehippy.net/Cycling/MyBikes/gtss/pages/138_3887.htm>
<http://www.thehippy.net/Cycling/MyBikes/gtss/pages/138_3894.htm>

Hey hippy! Call the cops! Someone's nicked your gears! Eeek!

&roo

Quoted message said:

Could the strength of road brakes compared to mtb brakes be related to
the strentgh of the rims, perhaps?

You mean, if road bikes all go Vees or similar the lightweight rims'll
wear out? Makes sense to me.

Back to hippy; my bike's well maintained etc. etc. In their best
condition, the ultegras have never ever (ever) come close to the power
of my old vees. Are you sure you have had your vees set up properly
when you tried(/use them regularly) them? Surely you have noticed they
stop you far more easily and with greater ease of modulation than your
ultegras. Surely. Anyway, that's my only point (such as it is...)

I'm now scrabbling for the ripcord that will eject me from this thread
before the obligitory boffin with a PhD in 1997 vees Vs. 2003 ultegra
calipers proves me wrong. Ah, there it is...
Cheers

NickZX6R said:

I found quite a difference when I changed from single-pivot to dual-pivot
calipers. Maybe it's just a case of keeping them maintained and adjusted
properly?

Although, even properly adjusted single-pivot calipers are [censored] compared
to dual-pivots, IMHO.

Well seeing that almost 30 years ago I could go flying over the
handlebars by grabbing a handful of single pivot brake when a car turned
right in front of me, why would I want more brake than that?

Nick

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:33:21 GMT, Nick Payne <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

NickZX6R said:

I found quite a difference when I changed from single-pivot to dual-pivot
calipers. Maybe it's just a case of keeping them maintained and adjusted
properly?

Although, even properly adjusted single-pivot calipers are [censored] compared
to dual-pivots, IMHO.

Well seeing that almost 30 years ago I could go flying over the
handlebars by grabbing a handful of single pivot brake when a car turned
right in front of me, why would I want more brake than that?

I used to be able to do that with my Weinemann Vanqueur centre-pull
front brake 40 years ago. I can still do that with my dual pivot 2002
Chorus front brake when a Rhodesian Ridgeback mistakes me for a lion
and launches itself at me. It just that it's a bit easier :-)

--
Regards.
Richard.

blah said:

Quoted message said:

Although, even properly adjusted single-pivot calipers are [censored] compared
to dual-pivots, IMHO.

Quoted message said:

Absolutely. I have come to road from a MTB background in the last six
months, and have found calipers to be pretty stoneage as far as
braking force and ease of use goes. My 2003 ultegra brakes are nothing
on my ancient '97 Deore XT Vees or even my other MTB's '97 LX
linear-pulls. Given a choice, Vees for me every time. Of course,
roadies love their traditions, so for now I'll just live in fear of
that car pulling out in front of me...

Actually, I was talking about single-pivot and dual-pivot road brakes,
not V brakes.

I've got Campy Daytona brakes and Mavic CXP21 rims and I 've never
had a problem with stopping power. The Daytona replaced Mirage single-pivots
which were [censored].

--
Nick

Nick Payne said:

NickZX6R said:

I found quite a difference when I changed from single-pivot to dual-pivot
calipers. Maybe it's just a case of keeping them maintained and adjusted
properly?

Although, even properly adjusted single-pivot calipers are [censored] compared
to dual-pivots, IMHO.

Well seeing that almost 30 years ago I could go flying over the
handlebars by grabbing a handful of single pivot brake when a car turned
right in front of me, why would I want more brake than that?

Quoted message said:

Nick

IME, the single pivots require more effort to brake hard and they are
not as easy to adjust as dual-pivot.

The only reason I upgraded was because of a supercheap friend overseas
deal, so I wasn't unhappy with the single pivots. But when I fitted
the Daytonas there was a big difference.

--
Nick

Oh Peter,

Don't bother about buying and using expensive brakes.

Just take them off.

There....... see. No more worries about brakes slowing you down or silly
discussions about which type is best.

There problem solved. Enjoy your free wheel riding.

By now!!

"Peter Cremasco" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A question concerning brakes - particularly the two most common types:
the caliper brakes (anchored at one point on the fork head) and the
linear pull (anchored at two points on the fork leg).

I've ridden both kinds, and find that the linear pull is capable of
locking up the wheels with minimum effort. The caliper brakes need to be
squeezed very hard, and don't even appear to come close to locking up
the wheel.

I've mostly seen caliper brakes on roadies (or old style MTB), and the
linear pull on MTB or hybrids. I've heard that the brakes on road bikes
are much better, but be buggered if I can see how. Surely not every
roadie I've ridden has been set up wrong, as far as brakes go?

Can someone explain this to me? Is there another type of brake set up
that looks like the caliper and is much much better?

Cheers,

PeterC

---
Cheers

PeterC

[Rushing headlong: out of control - and there ain't no stopping]
[and there's nothing you can do about it at all]

"Andrew Swan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:xVh_b.139

Quoted message said:

hippy said:

<http://www.thehippy.net/Cycling/MyBikes/gtss/pages/138_3895.htm>
<http://www.thehippy.net/Cycling/MyBikes/gtss/pages/138_3887.htm>
<http://www.thehippy.net/Cycling/MyBikes/gtss/pages/138_3894.htm>

Hey hippy! Call the cops! Someone's nicked your gears! Eeek!

I reckon it was an inside job, ya know. I reckon the owner musta
ripped off his own gears... probably fahrinsurince reasons.. yeah,
insurance reasons! He was scammin' RACV or somethin' for some
cash for his gears, yeah.

hippy ;-)