new swimmer

FFBSensei said:

Having no frame of reference, what should i shooting for
in terms of time and stroke count? What's fast? I am
interested in doing some open water swimming, at what
point should I consider venturing into open water?

Glib as it may sound, you should be shooting for improving
on your current bests. Right now your pace for 100 yards is
over 2:30 which would be regarded as pretty slow by most
people's standards. (If you insist on a target, 1:30 ought
to be doable for almost anyone of your age with decent form
and conditioning, but since you're so far from that right
now it's probably not helpful to have that in mind as you
work out in the pool.)

The good news is that there's tremendous room for
improvement. Assuming you're not in horrible shape, that
sort of time suggests severe technique faults that, when
addressed, ought to yield significant and rapid performance
gains. Since you've only been at this for a month, you
should definitely stick with your masters program (I assume
you receive coaching).

Also, as far as interval training, you don't indicate what
you're doing exactly, but you should swim repetitions of
less than 400 yards (400s are fine too, but you need some
shorter stuff). I'd recommend 100s and 50s.

Your stroke count of 21-22 is not so bad all things
considered, though you should aim to get it in the mid-high
teens as a start. Somewhat interesting to me is that you
take about 40s per length which means you're only taking one
armstroke every 2 seconds or so. That's a pretty leisurely
cadence and you should work on reducing that. Perhaps
expedite your arm recovery out of the water if that's
currently slow.

Just some thoughts to consider. Good luck with your
training.

In message <[email hidden]>, Ada Ma
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Mark P said:

As a long term goal, under 20 arm strokes / length is
worth aiming for.

Apologies for barging in - how long is one length? 50 or
25?

Sorry for the simple question, I'm new.

A length is normally 25 metres - although in the US it may
be 25 yards. The 20 stroke target is quite achievable in a
25 metre pool - slightly easier in a 25 yd one. When you get
to 20 you can set a new target at 18 then 16, 14 etc.
However don't struggle to stretch your stroke out or try to
go too slow to make the count. Just concentrate on the
techniques that have been suggested here and see what effect
they have on the count.

At this stage you should swim mainly shortish distances at
moderate pace with rests in between so that you can maintain
reasonable form most of the time. When you stroke count gets
to 2 more than it was on the first length is a good time to
take a breather.
--
Richard Cant

Mark P <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Glib as it may sound, you should be shooting for improving
on your current bests. Right now your pace for 100 yards
is over 2:30 which would be regarded as pretty slow by
most people's standards. (If you insist on a target, 1:30
ought to be doable for almost anyone of your age with
decent form and conditioning, but since you're so far from
that right now it's probably not helpful to have that in
mind as you work out in the pool.)

The good news is that there's tremendous room for
improvement. Assuming you're not in horrible shape, that
sort of time suggests severe technique faults that, when
addressed, ought to yield significant and rapid
performance gains. Since you've only been at this for a
month, you should definitely stick with your masters
program (I assume you receive coaching).

I'm about 6' and 160...can run and bike for a period of
time...so I'm assuming its mainly technique which is holding
me back. I'm doing the masters program and also getting some
private instruction as well.

Quoted message said:

Also, as far as interval training, you don't indicate what
you're doing exactly, but you should swim repetitions of
less than 400 yards (400s are fine too, but you need some
shorter stuff). I'd recommend 100s and 50s.

I only do 400's because that's the length of the race sprint
triathlon I'm doing. Although my goal is to get up to
olympic distances at some point.

Quoted message said:

Your stroke count of 21-22 is not so bad all things
considered, though you should aim to get it in the mid-
high teens as a start. Somewhat interesting to me is that
you take about 40s per length which means you're only
taking one armstroke every 2 seconds or so. That's a
pretty leisurely cadence and you should work on reducing
that. Perhaps expedite your arm recovery out of the water
if that's currently slow.

Maybe I should start with a rather simple question...how
does one count strokes? When I say 21-22...I'm counting
both right and left arm for one length. I've been focusing
on my trunk rotation, breathing, and being able to glide.
So, I have been trying to swim slowly to maximize glide,
minimize strokes.

I am doing 100's for my interval training. I'm thinking
about getting some swim paddles...I borrowed some from the
swimmer in the next lane last week and it seemed to help
my hand position and trunk rotation...altho the coach in
my masters program tends to be deadset against any
training aids.

Quoted message said:

Just some thoughts to consider. Good luck with your
training.

Thanks for helping me get a sense of where I am and some
goals for myself.

FFBSensei said:

Maybe I should start with a rather simple question...how
does one count strokes? When I say 21-22...I'm counting
both right and left arm for one length. I've been focusing
on my trunk rotation, breathing, and being able to glide.
So, I have been trying to swim slowly to maximize glide,
minimize strokes.

Typically you count one "stroke" for each arm pull so a full
left-right cycle counts as 2 strokes. If I understand you,
then you're actually taking around 40 strokes / length which
is quite high. Again this suggests ample room for technique
work; your coach should offer help on this. As a long term
goal, under 20 arm strokes / length is worth aiming for.

Quoted message said:

I am doing 100's for my interval training. I'm thinking
about getting some swim paddles...I borrowed some from the
swimmer in the next lane last week and it seemed to help
my hand position and trunk rotation...altho the coach in
my masters program tends to be deadset against any
training aids.

Just be careful with paddles as they can cause shoulder
problems; use them in moderation and stop if you experience
pain. Also the local Masters team where I am uses paddles
regularly so don't take too much from your coach's negative
opinion of them.

On 26 Jun,

(FFBSensei) said:

I am doing 100's for my interval training. I'm thinking
about getting some swim paddles...I borrowed some from the
swimmer in the next lane last week and it seemed to help
my hand position and trunk rotation...altho the coach in
my masters program tends to be deadset against any
training aids.

Unless your technique is impeccable do *not* use hand
paddles other than for a couple of lengths slowly to improve
technique. Greater use for stamina/strength training *will*
cause shoulder problems if done without regard to technique.
The coach should be aware of this and may be why he does not
advocate you using paddles.

--
BD change lycos to yahoo to reply

"FFBSensei" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So, I have been trying to swim
slowly to maximize glide

Why do you want to maximize glide?? That implies minimizing
speed. When you glide you apply no propulsion, which means
you decelerate rapidly. A key to fast swimming is to avoid
decelerating!

Would you rather be fast or "efficient"?

Don

"Donald Graft" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<KoeDc.99592$Hg2.3114@attbi_s04>...

Quoted message said:

"FFBSensei" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So, I have been trying to swim
slowly to maximize glide

Why do you want to maximize glide?? That implies
minimizing speed. When you glide you apply no propulsion,
which means you decelerate rapidly. A key to fast swimming
is to avoid decelerating!

Would you rather be fast or "efficient"?

Don

Don,

When I first started swimming laps 4 weeks ago, as one would
expect, my form was horrid. I've been focused mainly on form
and technique this first month...not going for distance or
speed. Once I get my form down with the trunk rotation, hand
position, and breathing, I can begin speeding up my form. I
didn't want to do bad technique really quickly!

So, by working on efficiency, I can then fine tune my form.
From what I read in Total Immersion...efficiency leads to
speed. The world record holder according to the author also
had one of the lowest stroke counts.

So, eventually i hope to be going efficiently faster!

Mark P said:

As a long term goal, under 20 arm strokes / length is
worth aiming for.

Apologies for barging in - how long is one length? 50 or 25?

Sorry for the simple question, I'm new.

Richard Cant said:

In message <[email hidden]>, Ada Ma
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Mark P said:

As a long term goal, under 20 arm strokes / length is
worth aiming for.

Apologies for barging in - how long is one length?
50 or 25?

Sorry for the simple question, I'm new.

A length is normally 25 metres - although in the US it may
be 25 yards. The 20 stroke target is quite achievable in a
25 metre pool - slightly easier in a 25 yd one. When you
get to 20 you can set a new target at 18 then 16, 14 etc.
However don't struggle to stretch your stroke out or try
to go too slow to make the count. Just concentrate on the
techniques that have been suggested here and see what
effect they have on the count.

At this stage you should swim mainly shortish distances at
moderate pace with rests in between so that you can
maintain reasonable form most of the time. When you stroke
count gets to 2 more than it was on the first length is a
good time to take a breather.

Thanks a lot for your suggestions. I have been trying to
improve my freestyle for months - it never occurred to me to
find a newsgroup on swimming until today. I'm glad I've
found this!

Cheers, Ada

Richard Cant <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In message <[email hidden]>, Ada Ma
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Mark P said:

As a long term goal, under 20 arm strokes / length is
worth aiming for.

Apologies for barging in - how long is one length?
50 or 25?

Sorry for the simple question, I'm new.

A length is normally 25 metres - although in the US it may
be 25 yards. The 20 stroke target is quite achievable in a
25 metre pool - slightly easier in a 25 yd one. When you
get to 20 you can set a new target at 18 then 16, 14 etc.
However don't struggle to stretch your stroke out or try
to go too slow to make the count. Just concentrate on the
techniques that have been suggested here and see what
effect they have on the count.

At this stage you should swim mainly shortish distances at
moderate pace with rests in between so that you can
maintain reasonable form most of the time. When you stroke
count gets to 2 more than it was on the first length is a
good time to take a breather.

You could of course take a totally different approach.

Since it's summer, a whole new crop of swimmers have hit
the masters group. One of them in our pool is a young
woman who is a gymnast for a school in the midwest. Kicks
like the blazes. We nicknamed her the "Irish Rose". (She
doesn't know that - the pretty 20 years old have no
interest in the married 40 year old men ... which is
probably a good thing 🙂

I damn near coughed up a lung trying to hang with her in the
main set. Was it a fun? "Heck yes!". Do I have any idea what
my stroke count was? "Heck no!"

Sooner or later you're going to have to trust your mind and
body to find the path of least and maximum resistance where
appropriate, (body and arms) Why not start today? Lose the
stroke count thing and start training.

If you want to over-analyze it, study video of elites. At
least if you do that you know you're tuned into the species'
best. If you embrace one paradigm, you're bound to get a lot
of [censored] mixed in with some good stuff.

Eric

"Ada Ma" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanks a lot for your suggestions. I have been trying to
improve my

freestyle

Quoted message said:

for months - it never occurred to me to find a newsgroup
on swimming until today. I'm glad I've found this!

welcome to the group Ada....watch out for Martin 😉

diablo said:

"Ada Ma" <[email hidden]> wrote
in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanks a lot for your suggestions. I have been trying to
improve my

freestyle

Quoted message said:

for months - it never occurred to me to find a newsgroup
on swimming until today. I'm glad I've found this!

welcome to the group Ada....watch out for Martin 😉

Thanks for the welcome Diablo, I think a little googling
is in need!

Ada Ma said:

diablo said:

"Ada Ma" <[email hidden]>
wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanks a lot for your suggestions. I have been trying to
improve my

freestyle

Quoted message said:

for months - it never occurred to me to find a newsgroup
on swimming until today. I'm glad I've found this!

welcome to the group Ada....watch out for Martin 😉

Thanks for the welcome Diablo, I think a little googling
is in need!

No, he's right. Watch out for me.

(4precious) said:

[email hidden] (Gleshna) wrote in message news:<20040626100020.29586.00000593@mb-
m16.aol.com>...

Quoted message said:

Maximizing glide implies good streamlining to me.

Streamlining in the absence of propulsion is a recipe for
slow swimming.

Except right after the dive and right after the turn.

"Martin W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Streamlining in the absence of propulsion is a recipe for
slow swimming.

Except right after the dive and right after the turn.

as soon as you hit the water, or your feet leave the wall,
you're slowing down.

diablo said:

"Martin W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Streamlining in the absence of propulsion is a recipe
for slow swimming.

Except right after the dive and right after the turn.

as soon as you hit the water, or your feet leave the wall,
you're slowing down.

No propulsion, you see. But streamlining is all.