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TR Helvellyn

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
7 June 2004
Last activity
19 June 2004
Original author
Mike Mason
Posts
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  1. Day (Wednesday) started as normal for a Lakes day with a
    quick run up the
    M6. The views from the Kirkstone clear and sharp. Arrived in
    Glenridding at
    8.45am and set off at 9.00am.

    Walked back along the road towards Patterdale and turned up
    the road at Grisedale Bridge and started looking for the
    footpath towards Arnison Crag. Found the first part but
    lost it and ended up with a lost 15 minutes round Home Farm
    before finally picking the path up again. The path lead
    ever upwards with better and better views of Ullswater as I
    got higher. The summit was reached quite quickly and after
    a brief rest set off for Trough Head. Picked up the wall
    there and followed it onto the ridge of Birks quite close
    to the top. Very steep hereabouts. The ridge to St Sunday
    Crag stretched away to the summit. Very pleasant walking
    with good views across Grisedale. From the summit of St
    Sunday Crag descended the ridge towards Fairfield bur
    dropped of the ridge down towards Grisedale Tarn. Steep at
    the top but quickly flattening out. A really good path all
    the way to the tarn, round the tarn and low gear again to
    get up Seat Sandal.

    So far the walk had been good, weather was sunny and getting
    warmer and there were not too many people around. The path
    up to Dollywagon however was another matter, lots of people
    going up and down.. Dropped down off Seat Sandal (almost due
    North) and then straight up the steep southern face of
    Dollywagon. No real path here just a wall to guide in the
    right direction. Came of the slope at the metal post on the
    path (? anyone any idea what the post is about). Crossed the
    path and headed for the summit of dollywagon followed by
    High Crag and Nethermost Pike and finally Helvellyn. This
    bit of the walk was quite different crowds of people about.
    Didn't stop on Helvellyn summit cause there was nowhere to
    sit. Went round to Lower Man and then Whiteside. Stopped
    here for a late lunch and peace again. The walk down to
    Raise was hard as I stiffened up and the climb to the summit
    was not good, fortunately the walk down to Sticks Pass was
    easier as I loosened up. The climb up to Stybarrow Dodd
    seemed long and I realised I was getting quite tired. The
    original plan was to trot along to Watson's Dodd and Great
    Dodd and then return to Stybarrow but after due
    consideration I gave it a miss.

    Dropped down towards White Stones (Greenside) and followed
    the path round to Hartside. Lovely walking here, no path to
    speak of and no people. In fact the last person I had seen
    was at the Sticks Pass and I didn't meet anyone else until I
    got back into Glenridding.. Another rest at Hart Side and
    then the long gradual climb to the summit of White Stones.
    Noticed here the batteries on my GPS had flattened so
    changed them for the spares. Looking at the screen I had
    lost about a hundred metres. Started off down the path
    towards Sheffield Pike and was surprised to find myself very
    close to the edge of the disused quarries. Not a place I
    like to be in cloud. Crossed Nick Head and wondered about
    abandoning the rest of the route and escape by dropping down
    to the mines but didn't in the end. Very tired now with knee
    lateral ligament starting to play up. Top of Sheffield Pike
    arrived and went past. The descant to Glenridding Dodd was
    painful and slow but finally I was on the top of Glenridding
    Dodd. Last of water used up here (cannot recall passing
    running water in the whole of the day) together with last of
    food. The final walk down into Glenridding was taken slowly
    but eventually arrived back at the car at 7.40pm very
    knackered but very pleased with the day.

    All in all a great day, good views and much of the walk done
    without too many people around.

    Walk summary

    9.77 miles Height Ascended 2061 metres Time 10 hours 40
    minutes 13 Wainrights (10 of which were new to me)

    Oh well just done the Naismith calc which gives 9.27 hours
    for the walk. I am unfit.

    Mike Mason

  2. "Mike Mason" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Walk summary

    17.77 miles Height Ascended 2061 metres Time 10 hours 40
    minutes 13 Wainrights (10 of which were new to me)

    Oh well just done the Naismith calc which gives 9.27 hours
    for the walk. I am unfit.

    Tupper's method: 1 hour per 250m (up and down) comes to 8 hr
    15 mins. You must therefore have had 2 hr 25 mins of flat-
    ish walking (or my method isn't working).

    The method works best on straight-up-and-down walks.
    --
    Adrian

  3. "Mike Mason" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Day (Wednesday) started as normal for a Lakes day with a
    quick run up the
    M6. The views from the Kirkstone clear and sharp. Arrived
    in Glenridding


    at

    Quoted message said:

    8.45am and set off at 9.00am.


    snip

    Quoted message said:

    All in all a great day, good views and much of the walk
    done without too many people around.

    Walk summary

    17.77 miles Height Ascended 2061 metres Time 10 hours 40
    minutes 13 Wainrights (10 of which were new to me)

    Oh well just done the Naismith calc which gives 9.27 hours
    for the walk. I am unfit.

    Mike Mason

    Quite an impressive day. I did almost the same track in two
    days. Stayed overnight in Helvellyn YH so I've taken in
    Striding Edge and Swirral Edge. As for speed : take your
    time if you know you'll be back in time.

    Theo

  4. Mike Mason said:

    Day (Wednesday) started as normal for a Lakes day with a
    quick run up the
    M6. The views from the Kirkstone clear and sharp. Arrived
    in Glenridding at
    8.45am and set off at 9.00am.

    Walked back along the road towards Patterdale and turned up
    the road at Grisedale Bridge and started looking for the
    footpath towards Arnison Crag. Found the first part but
    lost it and ended up with a lost 15 minutes round Home Farm
    before finally picking the path up again. The path lead
    ever upwards with better and better views of Ullswater as I
    got higher. The summit was reached quite quickly and after
    a brief rest set off for Trough Head. Picked up the wall
    there and followed it onto the ridge of Birks quite close
    to the top. Very steep hereabouts. The ridge to St Sunday
    Crag stretched away to the summit. Very pleasant walking
    with good views across Grisedale. From the summit of St
    Sunday Crag descended the ridge towards Fairfield bur
    dropped of the ridge down towards Grisedale Tarn. Steep at
    the top but quickly flattening out. A really good path all
    the way to the tarn, round the tarn and low gear again to
    get up Seat Sandal.

    So far the walk had been good, weather was sunny and
    getting warmer and there were not too many people around.
    The path up to Dollywagon however was another matter, lots
    of people going up and down.. Dropped down off Seat Sandal
    (almost due North) and then straight up the steep southern
    face of Dollywagon. No real path here just a wall to guide
    in the right direction. Came of the slope at the metal post
    on the path (? anyone any idea what the post is about).
    Crossed the path and headed for the summit of dollywagon
    followed by High Crag and Nethermost Pike and finally
    Helvellyn. This bit of the walk was quite different crowds
    of people about. Didn't stop on Helvellyn summit cause
    there was nowhere to sit. Went round to Lower Man and then
    Whiteside. Stopped here for a late lunch and peace again.
    The walk down to Raise was hard as I stiffened up and the
    climb to the summit was not good, fortunately the walk down
    to Sticks Pass was easier as I loosened up. The climb up to
    Stybarrow Dodd seemed long and I realised I was getting
    quite tired. The original plan was to trot along to
    Watson's Dodd and Great Dodd and then return to Stybarrow
    but after due consideration I gave it a miss.

    Dropped down towards White Stones (Greenside) and
    followed the path round to Hartside. Lovely walking
    here, no path to speak of and no people. In fact the
    last person I had seen was at the Sticks Pass and I
    didn't meet anyone else until I got back into
    Glenridding.. Another rest at Hart Side and then the
    long gradual climb to the summit of White Stones.
    Noticed here the batteries on my GPS had flattened so
    changed them for the spares. Looking at the screen I had
    lost about a hundred metres. Started off down the path
    towards Sheffield Pike and was surprised to find myself
    very close to the edge of the disused quarries. Not a
    place I like to be in cloud. Crossed Nick Head and
    wondered about abandoning the rest of the route and
    escape by dropping down to the mines but didn't in the
    end. Very tired now with knee lateral ligament starting
    to play up. Top of Sheffield Pike arrived and went past.
    The descant to Glenridding Dodd was painful and slow but
    finally I was on the top of Glenridding Dodd. Last of
    water used up here (cannot recall passing running water
    in the whole of the day) together with last of food. The
    final walk down into Glenridding was taken slowly but
    eventually arrived back at the car at 7.40pm very
    knackered but very pleased with the day.

    All in all a great day, good views and much of the walk
    done without too many people around.

    Walk summary

    17.77 miles Height Ascended 2061 metres Time 10 hours 40
    minutes 13 Wainrights (10 of which were new to me)

    Oh well just done the Naismith calc which gives 9.27 hours
    for the walk. I am unfit.

    Mike Mason

    Quite impressed by the fact you managed to do Helvellyn from
    Glenridding without going across striding or swirral edge. I
    must admit myself to walking on all of the route that you
    gave but on about 5 or 6 different occasions.
    --
    Gwyn. [email hidden] **spam trap** remove rem
    if replying

  5. Quoted message said:

    17.77 miles Height Ascended 2061 metres Time 10 hours 40
    minutes 13 Wainrights (10 of which were new to me)

    17 miles, 2000 metres, make your mind up, are you
    metric or not!

    Quoted message said:


    Oh well just done the Naismith calc which gives 9.27 hours
    for the walk. I am unfit.

    Have you added on time for stops? Anyway, Naismith takes no
    account of the fact that you slow down as you get tired,
    assuming that you walk at the same speed after 15 miles as
    you do when you're fresh.

    I'm pretty fit at the moment (or was before I twisted by
    ankle and knackered my knees), and your time matches quite
    well the sort of times we were clocking up for similar walks
    in Scotland a couple of weeks ago.

  6. On 10 Jun 2004 03:13:33 -0700, [email hidden] (Simon

    Caldwell) said:
    Quoted message said:


    17.77 miles Height Ascended 2061 metres Time 10 hours 40
    minutes 13 Wainrights (10 of which were new to me)

    17 miles, 2000 metres, make your mind up, are you
    metric or not!


    Whats the problem.... I insist on using what ever units I am
    happy with..

    Miles are familiar, metres for height gain is familiar. I
    dont understand feet and usually convert them the metres
    in the up/down dimension. Fortunately. I am happy with km
    as well, and my GPS is set to metric (to avoid those
    pesky feet)

    Ironically I have only used feet as a height unit in a very
    metric country, speed limits in kph distances in km, the
    maps are in feet.. Step forward Canada!

    Its a function of living at the time of two systems.. I dont
    get gallons for petrol, used to litres, but hate buying beer
    and milk by anything but the pint.

    Of course you can get round it by using furlongs. 5 to the
    km and 8 to the mile.

    I would not worry about unit names and systems.. as long as
    you can get a number that tells you how much work there is
    ahead of you.

    Richard Webb

  7. The message <[email hidden]>
    from [email hidden] (Simon Caldwell) contains these words:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Oh well just done the Naismith calc which gives 9.27
    hours for the walk. I am unfit.

    Quoted message said:

    Have you added on time for stops?

    Naismith includes time for stops.

    Quoted message said:

    Anyway, Naismith takes no account of the fact that you
    slow down as you get tired, assuming that you walk at the
    same speed after 15 miles as you do when you're fresh.

    That is because Naismith came up with a formula for
    predicting the overall time of a full days walk, not
    individual elements. However if you pace yourself carefully
    and don't reach total exhaustion there is no reason why you
    shouldn't be walking as fast at the end of the day as at the
    beginning.

    BTW welcome to the knackered knees club. I trust that you
    have a recoverable from affliction.

    --
    Roger Chapman so far this year 27 summits New - 16 (Marilyns
    4, Sweats 1, Outlying Fells 11) Repeats - 11( Marilyns 2,
    Sweats 6, Wainwrights 11) Knackered knee - 3 times

  8. "Simon Caldwell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    17.77 miles Height Ascended 2061 metres Time 10 hours 40
    minutes 13 Wainrights (10 of which were new to me)

    17 miles, 2000 metres, make your mind up, are you
    metric or not!

    Both. Easier for me to work in mph but height is easier in
    metres. Just me. I'm getting old.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:


    Oh well just done the Naismith calc which gives 9.27
    hours for the walk.


    I

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    am unfit.

    Have you added on time for stops?

    No

    Quoted message said:

    Anyway, Naismith takes no account of the fact that you
    slow down as you get tired, assuming that you walk at the
    same speed after 15 miles as you do when you're fresh.

    I'm pretty fit at the moment (or was before I twisted by
    ankle and knackered my knees), and your time matches quite
    well the sort of times we were clocking up for similar
    walks in Scotland a couple of weeks ago.

    Sorry to hear about your knee. A couple of years ago I was
    achieving Naismith times with a bit of a struggle. I am that
    much less fit than I was two years ago. It goes with my job
    I suspect.

    Mike Mason

  9. "gwyn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Mike Mason said:

    Day (Wednesday) started as normal for a Lakes day with a
    quick run up the
    M6. The views from the Kirkstone clear and sharp. Arrived
    in Glenridding


    at

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    8.45am and set off at 9.00am.

    Walked back along the road towards Patterdale and turned
    up the road at Grisedale Bridge and started looking for
    the footpath towards Arnison


    Crag.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Found the first part but lost it and ended up with a lost
    15 minutes


    round

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Home Farm before finally picking the path up again. The
    path lead ever upwards with better and better views of
    Ullswater as I got higher. The summit was reached quite
    quickly and after a brief rest set off for


    Trough

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Head. Picked up the wall there and followed it onto the
    ridge of Birks


    quite

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    close to the top. Very steep hereabouts. The ridge to St
    Sunday Crag stretched away to the summit. Very pleasant
    walking with good views


    across

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Grisedale. From the summit of St Sunday Crag descended
    the ridge towards Fairfield bur dropped of the ridge down
    towards Grisedale Tarn. Steep at


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    top but quickly flattening out. A really good path all
    the way to the


    tarn,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    round the tarn and low gear again to get up Seat Sandal.

    So far the walk had been good, weather was sunny and
    getting warmer and there were not too many people around.
    The path up to Dollywagon however


    was

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    another matter, lots of people going up and down..
    Dropped down off Seat Sandal (almost due North) and then
    straight up the steep southern face of Dollywagon. No
    real path here just a wall to guide in the right


    direction.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Came of the slope at the metal post on the path (? anyone
    any idea what


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    post is about). Crossed the path and headed for the
    summit of dollywagon followed by High Crag and Nethermost
    Pike and finally Helvellyn. This bit


    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the walk was quite different crowds of people about.
    Didn't stop on Helvellyn summit cause there was nowhere
    to sit. Went round to Lower Man


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    then Whiteside. Stopped here for a late lunch and peace
    again. The walk


    down

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to Raise was hard as I stiffened up and the climb to the
    summit was not good, fortunately the walk down to Sticks
    Pass was easier as I loosened


    up.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The climb up to Stybarrow Dodd seemed long and I realised
    I was getting quite tired. The original plan was to trot
    along to Watson's Dodd and


    Great

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Dodd and then return to Stybarrow but after due
    consideration I gave it a miss.

    Dropped down towards White Stones (Greenside) and
    followed the path round to Hartside. Lovely walking here,
    no path to speak of and no people. In


    fact

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the last person I had seen was at the Sticks Pass and I
    didn't meet


    anyone

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    else until I got back into Glenridding.. Another rest at
    Hart Side and


    then

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the long gradual climb to the summit of White Stones.
    Noticed here the batteries on my GPS had flattened so
    changed them for the spares. Looking


    at

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the screen I had lost about a hundred metres. Started off
    down the path towards Sheffield Pike and was surprised to
    find myself very close to the edge of the disused
    quarries. Not a place I like to be in cloud. Crossed Nick
    Head and wondered about abandoning the rest of the route
    and escape


    by

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    dropping down to the mines but didn't in the end. Very
    tired now with


    knee

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    lateral ligament starting to play up. Top of Sheffield
    Pike arrived and


    went

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    past. The descant to Glenridding Dodd was painful and
    slow but finally I


    was

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    on the top of Glenridding Dodd. Last of water used up
    here (cannot recall passing running water in the whole of
    the day) together with last of


    food.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The final walk down into Glenridding was taken slowly but
    eventually


    arrived

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    back at the car at 7.40pm very knackered but very pleased
    with the day.

    All in all a great day, good views and much of the walk
    done without too many people around.

    Walk summary

    17.77 miles Height Ascended 2061 metres Time 10 hours 40
    minutes 13 Wainrights (10 of which were new to me)

    Oh well just done the Naismith calc which gives 9.27
    hours for the walk.


    I

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    am unfit.

    Mike Mason

    Quite impressed by the fact you managed to do Helvellyn
    from Glenridding without going across striding or swirral
    edge. I must admit myself to walking on all of the route
    that you gave but on about 5 or 6 different occasions.
    --
    Gwyn. [email hidden] **spam trap** remove
    rem if replying

    Have to admit this was a peak bagging day. I've done
    Striding and Swirral several times before in different
    conditions so I didn't mind not visiting them again. Anyway
    Striding Edge looked very busy so it wouldn't have been to
    my taste. I enjoy walking in peace and quite.

    My problem now is Watson Dodd and Great Dodd. It's going to
    have to be another day to pick them off or rather a half
    day. I'll have to do a bit of planning and see what else I
    can 'tick off' in the area.

    Mike

  10. "Mike Mason" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    snip

    Quoted message said:

    Have to admit this was a peak bagging day. I've done
    Striding and Swirral several times before in different
    conditions so I didn't mind not visiting them again.
    Anyway Striding Edge looked very busy so it wouldn't have
    been to my taste. I enjoy walking in peace and quite.

    My problem now is Watson Dodd and Great Dodd. It's going
    to have to be another day to pick them off or rather a
    half day. I'll have to do a bit


    of

    Quoted message said:

    planning and see what else I can 'tick off' in the area.

    If you want to 'tick off' some more you could perhaps go to
    Keswick and take a bus or hike to Legburthwaite on the A591
    (Thirlmere) and ascend the Dodd's from the west and turn
    northwards to complete the ridge all the way to Clough Head
    and than cross over to Blencathra and/or Skiddaw. A total of
    27 km if you do them all.(more then half a day off course)
    Ye olde AW's route.

    Theo

  11. Yes that's a thought and I could pick up High Rigg as well.
    I think the day will start at the car park close to the
    junction of the A591 and B5322. I'll go up the Sticks Pass
    path and bag Stang (just off Raise), which is on list I'm
    looking at. I can then go over Stybarrow Dodd, Watson's
    Dodd, Great Dodd, Calfhow Pike and Clough Head. Then its
    back to Calfhow Pike and drop down to a path coming up from
    Beckthorns. Down this path and across to High Rigg by way of
    Sosgill Bridge and finally back to the car. I might, if I
    get an early start, then drive around to Gowbarrow (it's on
    the way home anyway) and do Gowbarrow Fell. Then using the
    car to move from fell to fell and take in Great and Little
    Mell. The last three fells were always going to be a bit of
    a problem with them being out of the main Lakes area. That
    should give me a good days walk but a bit bitty.

    Your suggestion of taking in Blencathra seems horrendous and
    only 27ks. It seems to me much farther than that but when
    you look on the map it is quite close. Think I'll give it a
    miss though.Major problem would be transport back to
    wherever the car is. I'm into circular walks cause I'm a bit
    idle and that means that some walks get quite contrived.

    Mike

    "theo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Mike Mason" <[email hidden]> schreef in
    bericht news:v52yc.919$RE4.8481003@news-
    text.cableinet.net...

    snip

    Quoted message said:

    Have to admit this was a peak bagging day. I've done
    Striding and


    Swirral

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    several times before in different conditions so I didn't
    mind not


    visiting

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    them again. Anyway Striding Edge looked very busy so it
    wouldn't have


    been

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to my taste. I enjoy walking in peace and quite.

    My problem now is Watson Dodd and Great Dodd. It's going
    to have to be another day to pick them off or rather a
    half day. I'll have to do a bit


    of

    Quoted message said:

    planning and see what else I can 'tick off' in the area.

    If you want to 'tick off' some more you could perhaps go
    to Keswick and


    take

    Quoted message said:

    a bus or hike to Legburthwaite on the A591 (Thirlmere) and
    ascend the


    Dodd's

    Quoted message said:

    from the west and turn northwards to complete the ridge
    all the way to Clough Head and than cross over to
    Blencathra and/or Skiddaw. A total of


    27

    Quoted message said:

    km if you do them all.(more then half a day off course) Ye
    olde AW's


    route.

    Quoted message said:


    Theo

  12. On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:56:48 +0100, Roger <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    BTW welcome to the knackered knees club. I trust that you
    have a recoverable from affliction.

    Well my physio promised me about 10 years ago that I'd have
    arthritis by my 50s, and that's less than a decade away :-(

    Not sure what the current problems is, I used to suffer
    dreadfully but have been fine for a few years. Why it's come
    back now I've no idea. OK, so we did about 32500 feet of
    ascent and decent over the week, but that's not it because
    my knees hurt before the end of day 1. Of course I ignored
    the pain all week which probably didn't help ;-)

  13. The message <[email hidden]>
    from Simon Caldwell <[email hidden]> contains these words:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    BTW welcome to the knackered knees club. I trust that you
    have a recoverable from affliction.

    Quoted message said:

    Well my physio promised me about 10 years ago that I'd
    have arthritis by my 50s, and that's less than a decade
    away :-(

    I don't want to be a killjoy but ISTR that I was in my
    mid 40s when my occasional knee problems suddenly became
    much worse.

    Quoted message said:

    Not sure what the current problems is, I used to suffer
    dreadfully but have been fine for a few years. Why it's
    come back now I've no idea. OK, so we did about 32500 feet
    of ascent and decent over the week, but that's not it
    because my knees hurt before the end of day 1. Of course I
    ignored the pain all week which probably didn't help ;-)

    I have been down that road in the past and I am sure it
    doesn't help in the long run.

    Not sure whether my current knee problem is the same as in
    previous instances as it doesn't feel rough when I agitate
    the kneecap and it hurts going up steep ground as well as
    descending. I found last weekend that if I kept to smooth
    ground and didn't bend the knee more than about 10 degrees
    at the very most I could get by with virtually no pain at
    all but I had to be very careful with foot placements and
    zigzag the steeper slopes.

    --
    Roger Chapman so far this year 34 summits New - 18 (Marilyns
    6, Sweats 1, Outlying Fells 11) Repeats - 16( Marilyns 5,
    Sweats 11, Wainwrights 11) Knackered knee - 4 times

  14. Simon Caldwell said:
    Roger said:


    BTW welcome to the knackered knees club. I trust that you
    have a recoverable from affliction.

    Well my physio promised me about 10 years ago that I'd have
    arthritis by my 50s, and that's less than a decade away :-(

    Not sure what the current problems is, I used to suffer
    dreadfully but have been fine for a few years. Why it's
    come back now I've no idea. OK, so we did about 32500 feet
    of ascent and decent over the week, but that's not it
    because my knees hurt before the end of day 1. Of course I
    ignored the pain all week which probably didn't help ;-)

    Even as someone with no medical training I think I could
    safely confirm your latter assumption. Funnily enough, pain
    has a purpose - it usually means "stop" ;-) I did
    *something* to one knee a few months back, outer ligament I
    think, and couldn't even walk briskly for a mile without it
    bothering me. Rest and/or compression bandages seemed to be
    doing bugger all good, and I was about to go see a sports
    physio, but it was Easter, so I bought a load of ibuprofen
    instead. Bingo ! It can't have been all pain relief - there
    must have been some inflammation that was not obvious
    externally. Worked a treat.

    --
    Never put off till tomorrow what you can ignore entirely.

    Mail john rather than nospam...

  15. John Laird wrote on Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:41:27 +0100....

    Quoted message said:

    [snip] so I bought a load of ibuprofen instead. Bingo ! It
    can't have been all pain relief - there must have been
    some inflammation that was not obvious externally. Worked
    a treat.

    I did my back in a few years ago. The doctor said it wasn't
    serious but I should rest for a while until it got better.
    He asked if I'd taken anything, and I said ibuprofen. He
    said good, and that I should keep on taking it to help the
    inflammation, but to take paracetamol *as well* for the
    pain. (But I do use ibuprofen alone for pain relief in other
    circumstances.)

    --
    Tim Jackson [email hidden] (Change
    '.invalid' to '.co.uk' to reply direct) Absurd patents:
    visit patent.freeserve.co.ukpatent.freeserve.co.uk

  16. Roger said:

    from Simon Caldwell

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Not sure what the current problems is, I used to suffer
    dreadfully but have been fine for a few years. Why it's
    come back now I've no idea.

    Have you had a long layoff? That's the first thing that
    springs to mind. I always find that if I've been inactive
    for a while, doing a steep hill with no prior training is a
    sure way of making the problem recur. In such cases I make a
    point of doing a few easy walks first, flattish walks first
    (coastal), then a few smaller hills, gradually increasing
    the steepness. This gives the muscles around the knees a
    chance to build up some strength, because they do tend to
    waste away when not used regularly. Another technique is to
    do leg extension exercises to strengthen the muscles.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    OK, so we did about 32500 feet of ascent and decent over
    the week, but that's not it because my knees hurt before
    the end of day
    1. Of course I ignored the pain all week which probably
    didn't help ;-)

    I have been down that road in the past and I am sure it
    doesn't help in the long run.

    Definitely not.

    Quoted message said:

    Not sure whether my current knee problem is the same as in
    previous instances as it doesn't feel rough when I agitate
    the kneecap and it hurts going up steep ground as well as
    descending. I found last weekend that if I kept to smooth
    ground and didn't bend the knee more than about 10 degrees
    at the very most I could get by with virtually no pain at
    all but I had to be very careful with foot placements and
    zigzag the steeper slopes.

    A tight knee support helps to prevent you bending the knee
    too much (and gives support if you do).

    Sorry to keep banging on about walking poles, but they
    really are a great aid. Did my first longish hill walk
    for years today (long by my standards anyway) and had no
    knee problems, even though I could feel the strain in my
    right knee on the first ascent. The point I want to make
    though is regarding your comments about smooth ground.
    Poles give you the extra balance necessary for crossing
    rough ground without problems, preventing you from
    leaning sideways if you step awkwardly. They remove a lot
    of the lateral stresses that you normally encounter when
    keeping yourself balanced.

    Paul
    --
    wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.uk
    wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.uk
    photosig.comuserphotos

  17. Tim Jackson said:

    He said good, and that I should keep on taking it to help
    the inflammation, but to take paracetamol *as well* for
    the pain. (But I do use ibuprofen alone for pain relief in
    other circumstances.)

    He said that because, contrary to the common belief an NSAID
    (of which ibuprofen is weak example) has no specific
    analgesic [pain killing] influence... y'see you take
    analgesics for analgesia and an NSAID to reduce inflamation
    (NSAID = Non Steroidal Anti Inflammatory Drug)

    Reducing inflammation can have a [relatively] medium-term
    effect on reducing "pressure from inflammation" and hence
    a possible effect on pain receptors and hence the need for
    analgesia, but there's little specific and direct
    analgesic effect.

    Again, sorry, if I'm coming across as a bit tetchy on this
    ;-) but it really bugs me when the advertising folk blur
    the lines. Ibuprofen might have a [slightly] demonstrable
    analgesic effect but is not an analgesic [pain killer] its
    a [weak] non-steroidal anti-inflammatory with some
    analgesic effect.

    Your GP was spot on wth his advice. If you continue to use
    an NSAID [specifically] for pain relief, you're a noddy,
    believe me your GP knows more than you do.

    Not for nothing is ibuprofen referred to as "the pink
    placebo"

    SteveO

    NE Climbers & walkers chat forum;
    thenmc.org.ukindex.php

    NMC website: thenmc.org.ukthenmc.org.uk

  18. The message <[email hidden]>
    from "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

    Quoted message said:

    Roger wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    from Simon Caldwell

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Not sure what the current problems is, I used to suffer
    dreadfully but have been fine for a few years. Why it's
    come back now I've no idea.

    Quoted message said:

    Have you had a long layoff? That's the first thing that
    springs to mind. I always find that if I've been inactive
    for a while, doing a steep hill with no prior training is
    a sure way of making the problem recur. In such cases I
    make a point of doing a few easy walks first, flattish
    walks first (coastal), then a few smaller hills, gradually
    increasing the steepness. This gives the muscles around
    the knees a chance to build up some strength, because they
    do tend to waste away when not used regularly. Another
    technique is to do leg extension exercises to strengthen
    the muscles.

    My knee problems occurred first this year after a short
    layoff and on what I considered an easy walk (albeit the
    hardest walk in Wainrights Outlying Fells). However it was
    cold and windy. I have since had several longer layoffs in
    an attempt to cure the problem.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    OK, so we did about 32500 feet of ascent and decent
    over the week, but that's not it because my knees hurt
    before the end of day
    1. Of course I ignored the pain all week which
    probably didn't help ;-)

    I have been down that road in the past and I am sure it
    doesn't help in the long run.

    Quoted message said:

    Definitely not.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Not sure whether my current knee problem is the same as
    in previous instances as it doesn't feel rough when I
    agitate the kneecap and it hurts going up steep ground
    as well as descending. I found last weekend that if I
    kept to smooth ground and didn't bend the knee more than
    about 10 degrees at the very most I could get by with
    virtually no pain at all but I had to be very careful
    with foot placements and zigzag the steeper slopes.

    Quoted message said:

    A tight knee support helps to prevent you bending the knee
    too much (and gives support if you do).

    The knee support I eventually got stopped the knee bending
    very much at all and was so uncomfortable that walking any
    distance was a definite no-no.

    Sorry to keep banging on about walking poles, but they
    really are a

    Quoted message said:

    great aid. Did my first longish hill walk for years today
    (long by my standards anyway) and had no knee problems,
    even though I could feel the strain in my right knee on
    the first ascent. The point I want to make though is
    regarding your comments about smooth ground. Poles give
    you the extra balance necessary for crossing rough ground
    without problems, preventing you from leaning sideways if
    you step awkwardly. They remove a lot of the lateral
    stresses that you normally encounter when keeping yourself
    balanced.

    The smooth ground comment was as much about avoiding step-
    ups as avoiding difficult placings. Poles I have tried and I
    just don't have the arm strength to use them for more than a
    limited period.

    I was in South Wales for an annual reunion last weekend and
    did a couple of easy Marilyns on Friday on the way down
    without problem and a supposedly easy walk on Saturday with
    the group before venturing out on my own on Sunday.
    According to the GPS Saturday was 10.4 miles and 1700 feet
    of ascent in 7 hours which shouldn't have done my knee in
    (but did) while the Sunday stroll was 12.3 miles and 3000
    feet of ascent in 5 hours. The main difference was that
    Saturday included a fair amount of rough ground (up the Afon
    Twrc and then East across the bundu) while Sunday was just
    Fan Hir to Waun Lefrith and return.

    I was having my lunch by the cairn near the summit of Waun
    Lefrith (the summit area itself being occupied by a school
    party) when the party decamped and drifted past me in small
    groups. As they passed me 2 young boys were arguing about
    whether they were at 750 feet or 750 metres. Even the one
    using metres was being a bit premature as Waun Lefrith is
    only 677m and the summit of Bannau Sir Gaer only 749m.

    --
    Roger Chapman so far this year 34 summits New - 18 (Marilyns
    6, Sweats 1, Outlying Fells 11) Repeats - 16( Marilyns 5,
    Sweats 11, Wainwrights 11) Knackered knee - 4 times

  19. Steve Orrell wrote on Wed, 16 Jun 2004 01:39:20 +0100....

    Quoted message said:

    Reducing inflammation can have a [relatively] medium-term
    effect on reducing "pressure from inflammation" and hence
    a possible effect on pain receptors and hence the need for
    analgesia

    Probably why ibuprofen works for me.

    --
    Tim Jackson [email hidden] (Change
    '.invalid' to '.co.uk' to reply direct) Absurd patents:
    visit patent.freeserve.co.ukpatent.freeserve.co.uk

  20. Steve Orrell said:

    Not for nothing is ibuprofen referred to as "the pink
    placebo"

    At 2p/tablet, it was a darn sight better than having my knee
    aching all the time, even if it was a placebo effect. Didn't
    cost the NHS a bean, either!

    PS Only Nurofen is pink.

    --
    If all the world's a stage I sure got lousy seats...

    Mail john rather than nospam...

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