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Recumbents & Speed?

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Road Cycling
Published
16 June 2004
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6 July 2004
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xmp333
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  1. Hi,

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and that the
    speed record on flats was set by a recumbent at 81 mph. This
    raises several questions:

    1) If recumbents are so fast, why don't we see more races
    with them? The Tour De France still uses road bikes...

    2) If recumbents are so fast, why don't people ride them
    more often? Certainly a bicycle that's fast enough to
    keep up with traffic would eliminate the need for a
    biking lane or worries about riding on the left, etc...
    they could even be used on the freeway. People could
    cover more distances faster -- they would become an even
    better form of transport.

    3) How are these time trials conducted? For example, was the
    81mph record achieved by somebody pedalling from a dead
    standstill, or were "interesting" tactics allowed that
    make the achievement less than it seems?

    Thanks in advance.

  2. Quoted message said:

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and that the
    speed record on flats was set by a recumbent at 81 mph.

    The fastest?! Uprights are over twice as fast: w-w-
    ww.fredrompelberg.com/en/html/algemeen/Worldrecord/worl-
    drecord.asp

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Hi,

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and that the
    speed record on flats was set by a recumbent at 81 mph.
    This raises


    several

    Quoted message said:

    questions:

    1) If recumbents are so fast, why don't we see more races
    with them? The Tour De France still uses road bikes...

    2) If recumbents are so fast, why don't people ride them
    more often? Certainly a bicycle that's fast enough to
    keep up with traffic would eliminate the need for a
    biking lane or worries about riding on the left, etc...
    they could even be used on the freeway. People could
    cover more distances faster -- they would become an
    even better form of transport.

    3) How are these time trials conducted? For example, was
    the 81mph record achieved by somebody pedalling from a
    dead standstill, or


    were

    Quoted message said:

    "interesting" tactics allowed that make the achievement
    less than it seems?

    Thanks in advance.

  3. "Ronald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and
    that the speed record on flats was set by a recumbent
    at 81 mph.

    The fastest?! Uprights are over twice as fast: ww-ww-
    w.fredrompelberg.com/en/html/algemeen/Worldrecord/worldr-
    ecord.asp

    They are awfully dorky looking.

    M.

  4. Quoted message said:

    Hi,

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and that the
    speed record on flats was set by a recumbent at 81 mph.
    This raises several questions:

    1) If recumbents are so fast, why don't we see more races
    with them? The Tour De France still uses road bikes...

    I like my recumbent, but I wouldn't race anything but a flat
    time trial on it. And unless you are going to ride the bike
    a significant amount of time competitively, I would think
    most people would lose training benefits going from diamond
    frame bikes to a recumbent of any kind.

    Quoted message said:


    2) If recumbents are so fast, why don't people ride them
    more often? Certainly a bicycle that's fast enough to
    keep up with traffic would eliminate the need for a
    biking lane or worries about riding on the left, etc...
    they could even be used on the freeway. People could
    cover more distances faster -- they would become an even
    better form of transport.

    That bike was faired, timed on a flying start, and a lot of
    those in competition don't travel a fine line required in
    traffic. My SWB is as fast in traffic as my diamond frame,
    but if I didn't have reasons for switching, I wouldn't have.
    If my diamond frame was as comfortable at 100 miles as the
    recumbent (or as the DF once was to me), I wouldn't have
    paid double the price for the recumbent. FWIW, I commute on
    a Bike Friday Metro.

    That said, there are more than a few cyclists riding faired
    recumbents at speed in traffic. Give them an open road and
    they can hold mid-20s easily. Side drafts can be a [censored].

    Quoted message said:

    3) How are these time trials conducted? For example, was
    the 81mph record achieved by somebody pedalling from a
    dead standstill, or were "interesting" tactics allowed
    that make the achievement less than it seems?

    Short course flying start, usually on a track. A faired
    recumbent at 81 mph doesn't take unbanked corners well.

    Quoted message said:


    Thanks in advance.

    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
    two wheels...

  5. Anonymous [email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and that the
    speed record on flats was set by a recumbent at 81 mph.
    This raises several questions:

    1) If recumbents are so fast, why don't we see more races
    with them? The Tour De France still uses road bikes...

    They suck at climbing. They are illegal in mass start
    races. They are extremely dorky and are uncontrollable in a
    tight pack. Also it's required you have a beard, mustache,
    and white knee socks in order to ride one (and an
    engineering degree).

    Quoted message said:

    2) If recumbents are so fast, why don't people ride them
    more often? Certainly a bicycle that's fast enough to
    keep up with traffic would eliminate the need for a
    biking lane or worries about riding on the left, etc...
    they could even be used on the freeway. People could
    cover more distances faster -- they would become an
    even better form of transport.

    Sure... whatever.

  6. [email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and that the
    speed record on flats was set by a recumbent at 81 mph.
    This raises several questions:

    1) If recumbents are so fast, why don't we see more races
    with them? The Tour De France still uses road bikes...

    1) They are extremely specialized tandem streamliners with
    two people on board to hit these speeds.
    2) They are extremely un-manuverable.
    3) You can't get in or out of them without a pit crew.
    4) You could never race them on the sort of terrain on which
    bicycle races are held.

    Quoted message said:

    2) If recumbents are so fast, why don't people ride them
    more often?

    Because the speed is irrelevant. A "normal" recumbent will
    go somewhat faster than a diamond frame on the flats and
    quite a bit faster down hills if the road is reasonably
    straight. They are much slower up hills and especially so if
    they are very steep hills.

    Quoted message said:

    Certainly a bicycle that's fast enough to keep up with
    traffic would eliminate the need for a biking lane or
    worries about riding on the left, etc...

    If you can ride an upright at 20 mph you would use about the
    same power to ride 22 on a recumbent. Not much difference
    since drag is a non-linear but large growth factor.

    Quoted message said:

    3) How are these time trials conducted? For example, was
    the 81mph record achieved by somebody pedalling from a
    dead standstill, or were "interesting" tactics allowed
    that make the achievement less than it seems?

    This is achieved by a runup and a timed measurement over
    only a very short distance. There are no recumbent records
    that I could find that would lead one to believe that they
    could keep pace with a real race.

  7. Quoted message said:

    From: [email hidden] (Tom Kunich)

    <lots snipped>

    Quoted message said:

    This is achieved by a runup and a timed measurement over
    only a very short distance. There are no recumbent records
    that I could find that would lead one to believe that they
    could keep pace with a real race.


    Why am I dreading a lengthy Jeff Potter instigated and
    carried thread here. Please let me be wrong. Bill C

  8. On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:31:47 -0400, Curtis L. Russell <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    That said, there are more than a few cyclists riding faired
    recumbents at speed in traffic. Give them an open road and
    they can hold mid-20s easily. Side drafts can be a [censored].

    Yep, that's the reason I gave up commuting on a faired
    recumbent. Nothing like a gust of wind suddenly putting you
    one foot closer to big steel on wheels!

    Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx

  9. [email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Hi,

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and that the
    speed record on flats was set by a recumbent at 81 mph.
    This raises several questions:

    1) If recumbents are so fast, why don't we see more races
    with them? The Tour De France still uses road bikes...

    2) If recumbents are so fast, why don't people ride them
    more often? Certainly a bicycle that's fast enough to
    keep up with traffic would eliminate the need for a
    biking lane or worries about riding on the left, etc...
    they could even be used on the freeway. People could
    cover more distances faster -- they would become an
    even better form of transport.

    3) How are these time trials conducted? For example, was
    the 81mph record achieved by somebody pedalling from a
    dead standstill, or were "interesting" tactics allowed
    that make the achievement less than it seems?

    Thanks in advance.

    The 81 mph was done by a single rider (Sam Whittingham) on a
    road course at Battle Mountain, NV. The bike started under
    it's own power and was unpaced (unlike the record referred
    to above). The course is about 5 miles of flat, straight
    road, and the speed is timed over the last 200m. The bike
    was fully faired and would be totally unsuitable for traffic
    riding - too hard to see out of, unmanouverable, and easily
    blown around by cross winds. The only "interesting" tactic
    to increase the 81 mph record was doing it at altitude -
    just like all those guys who do their hour record in Mexico
    City or Colorado. Recumbents vary widely, much more so than
    road bikes, and some are fast and some are slow. Faired
    recumbents are considerably faster on flats and downhills,
    but they weigh more than road bikes and that hurts climbing
    performance. But strong riders can go quite fast on a
    recumbent - strong riders go fast on any bike.

  10. "MortDubois" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    The only "interesting" tactic to increase the 81 mph
    record was doing it at altitude - just like all those guys
    who do their hour record in Mexico City or Colorado.

    Real men do it near sea level.

  11. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    Hi,

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and that the
    speed record on flats was set by a recumbent at 81 mph.
    This raises several questions:

    1) If recumbents are so fast, why don't we see more races
    with them? The Tour De France still uses road bikes...

    UCI rules prohibit anything but a conventional road bike,
    very strictly defined by the rules, including such details
    as the allowable distance the seat may be ahead or behind
    the bottom bracket. The good reason for doing this is that
    they want the spirit of bike racing to be a contest of
    human performance, not bike technology. They even say that
    in their rules, with a clear assertion that this spirit
    will drive UCI rulings and regulations. As it is, 'bents
    are not faster everywhere, so you would likely see the
    phenomenon of riders changing bikes from stage to stage
    (which they already do) and even in some cases on different
    parts of each stage (which one or two riders has tried).
    The bad reason for doing this is the UCI is quite hidebound
    in its nature, got badly freaked out when Mochet set a
    putative hour record in 1938 with a recumbent bike, and
    promptly banned recumbents from all bike races. A lot of
    constraining decisions have been made since then, and the
    result is that bikes today look close enough to old racing
    bikes that a postwar rider would recognize them as
    incremental adjustments to his classic bike, and a pre-war
    rider would only be impressed by the addition of derailleur
    gear-changing.

    Quoted message said:

    2) If recumbents are so fast, why don't people ride them
    more often? Certainly a bicycle that's fast enough to
    keep up with traffic would eliminate the need for a
    biking lane or worries about riding on the left, etc...
    they could even be used on the freeway. People could
    cover more distances faster -- they would become an
    even better form of transport.

    A recumbent is not quite as at ease in tight circumstances
    as a road bike. It doesn't generally climb hills as well
    as a road bike. It rarely accelerates as well. And the
    fastest straight-line ones are incredibly constrained
    designs that are barely comfortable enough to use for
    record attempts. Normal recumbent designs cannot even be
    ridden up a curb without considerable skill or daring. For
    a typical rider who wants to climb hills or navigate city
    streets, a hardcore faired recumbent is not an ideal
    choice. As recumbents get further away from that essential
    type (unfaired recumbents, trikes, semi-upright or non-low
    designs, etc.) they lose recumbent advantages
    progressively until you get to the extremes: there are
    bent designs on the market that are both heavier and less
    aerodynamic than a conventional bike. What they offer is
    only the distinct seating position of a recumbent, which
    is what many recumbent riders are seeking, for comfort or
    physiological reasons.

    To get an idea of how important pure straight-line
    performance is, note that it can be improved notably on most
    road bikes by using a time-trial setup, and that adding a
    relatively simple nose fairing would help even more. Yet few
    riders ride their TT bikes on the road unless it is their
    only bike or they are TT training. Virtually none bother to
    fair their conventional bikes.

    Quoted message said:

    3) How are these time trials conducted? For example, was
    the 81mph record achieved by somebody pedalling from a
    dead standstill, or were "interesting" tactics allowed
    that make the achievement less than it seems?

    This is a "flying 200 m" record. The bike has a considerable
    (and I think unregulated by the record rules) distance to
    accelerate while approaching a 200m timing trap. Time
    through the trap is converted to a speed reading. This is
    the _de facto_ human-powered land speed record, currently
    held by Sam Whittingham riding the Varna Diablo II, designed
    by George Georgiev, at 81.00 mph.

    The hour record, which gives you a good idea of sustained
    maximum-effort speed in a faired low-racer 'bent by an elite
    athlete, is 51.33 mph, set by a German team with their
    "White Hawk". Slower riders may experience a lower top
    speed. By a fair bit.

    Recumbents are really cool, but they're also notably
    compromised vehicles. For a long-distance tour over
    relatively flat ground, a recumbent might be the fastest,
    easiest choice of all. But deviations from that formula tend
    to be at the peril of the recumbent's performance advantage.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden]
    sfu.cawiredcola President, Fabrizio
    Mazzoleni Fan Club

  12. In article <[email hidden]>,

    (Tom Kunich) said:

    [email hidden] wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and that
    the speed record on flats was set by a recumbent at 81
    mph. This raises several questions:

    1) If recumbents are so fast, why don't we see more
    races with them? The Tour De France still uses road
    bikes...

    1) They are extremely specialized tandem streamliners with
    two people on board to hit these speeds.

    This is not true: the solo HPVs are notably faster than the
    tandem record of 68.405 mph.

    Which is a bit of a shock, since it should be feasible to
    make a tandem with minimal aerodynamic penalties compared to
    a solo recumbent. I suspect that this is a great area for
    fruitful advancement, and that a dedicated team should be
    able to push the 2-up HPV record beyond the solo record.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    3) How are these time trials conducted? For example, was
    the 81mph record achieved by somebody pedalling from
    a dead standstill, or were "interesting" tactics
    allowed that make the achievement less than it seems?

    This is achieved by a runup and a timed measurement over
    only a very short distance. There are no recumbent records
    that I could find that would lead one to believe that they
    could keep pace with a real race.

    In many cases this might be true. But a recumbent is much,
    much faster over a typical TT course than a conventional
    bike. Any elite cyclist could get into a good faired
    recumbent and destroy a TT competition. They would probably
    not even need to train on it except for familiarization.

    Similarly, and again assuming equivalent-performance
    cyclists, a fast faired recumbent could probably TT away on
    a really flat road race course. Such a course would be
    somewhat rare, but I have ridden early-season races which
    were on precisely that kind of course: nearly dead-flat,
    only four uncomplicated corners, and about a 5 km circuit.

    The 'bent would be left for dead on most hillclimbs,
    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden]
    sfu.cawiredcola President, Fabrizio
    Mazzoleni Fan Club

  13. Carl Sundquist said:

    "MortDubois" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    The only "interesting" tactic to increase the 81 mph
    record was doing it at altitude - just like all those
    guys who do their hour record in Mexico City or Colorado.

    Real men do it near sea level.

    How high does one have to be to make such a record attempt
    (and I'm not really talking about altitude)?

  14. (K. J. Papai) said:

    Also it's required you have a beard, mustache, and
    white knee socks in order to ride one (and an
    engineering degree).

    If you carry a pocket slide rule, you can skip all that
    other stuff.

    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
    two wheels...

  15. On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:40:23 -0700, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    In many cases this might be true. But a recumbent is much,
    much faster over a typical TT course than a conventional
    bike. Any elite cyclist could get into a good faired
    recumbent and destroy a TT competition. They would probably
    not even need to train on it except for familiarization.

    Uh, huh. I'm a recumbent rider, too, and wish that were so.
    I think it is true when you are talking about a non-USCF
    rated event or a very local USCF club time trial. I've
    officiated at several USCF time trials with unfaired
    recumbents participating and they weren't the fastest of the
    day on any of the days. Truly elite cyclists on a time trial
    diamond frames easily held the best times. And a true
    turnaround on the course is disastrous for a recumbent,
    faired or not. One event had all three recumbents entered
    going down trying to make the 180 turn (none of them faired,
    all technically USCF legal).

    Mentioning a faired recumbent changes the issue. Obviously
    is they were on a course that favored them, they would win.
    That is a comparison that goes beyond apples and oranges,
    though, because you would be talking about the equivalent
    of a super-specialized time trialing bike that would have
    major advantages on some time trial courses and be non-
    competitive in almost all other competitions. Hardly a
    replacement for anything.

    BTW, if by 'typical TT course' you mean one that is flat
    with gentel corners and set up for good times, you certainly
    improve the chances of a non-faired recumbent. OTOH, you'll
    see that a couple of times a year. 'Typical' is whatever the
    sponsor club can put together that is close to 40k, or
    whatever. And the nationals have had their share of 'racing
    to the turnarounds'.

    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
    two wheels...

  16. On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:16:42 +0200, "Robert Chung" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    How high does one have to be to make such a record attempt
    (and I'm not really talking about altitude)?

    Above ground level. Ground level is a [censored]. So is the
    shower later.

    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
    two wheels...

  17. It's funny seeing all these RBR regulars still being
    wingnuts about the recumbent question.

    The more that strong cyclists use bents the more myths fall
    away. Now that we're seeing more 20-lb models I think we'll
    see lots of the 'can't uphill' jive go away. Our local club
    ride which includes a dozen strong riders has a 'benter as
    the strongest rider: on the ups, downs,
    wherever...acceleration, too. 'Bents handle fine. A
    properly faired bent handles fine also, even in sidewinds
    (mine does).

    They're race-legal in the USCF if under 2 meters for both TT
    and mass start with official's OK (and the 2m rule is eased
    sometimes).

    Ya know, a bent is a bike, uses the same parts, etc. The
    difference is that it has a different seat. And this gets
    people upset? A bent rotates the rider out of the wind,
    removing pressure points and bunnyhop ability: that's all.
    (The look of a bent is often simpler, more elegant and curvy
    than an upright due to lack of triangulation.) Enjoy 'em or
    don't. Or here's something really crazy: enjoy 'em *and*
    enjoy other bikes. Radical, I know.

    Here's some links I've posted before...

    *On the looking dorky question:
    speedbikes.chmainframe.html

    *A stylish American builder: x-eyed.combike1.html

    *On the "can't compete with uprights" question: m5-ligfietsen.commain.php
    Races

    *Exact info on the World's: wisil.recumbents.comspeedchallenge
    2003.htm

    *Superbike builder's website about fast bikes:
    speed101.comgallery

    *Great site of American HPV info and R&D:
    wisil.recumbents.comwisil.recumbents.com

    'Nuff said.

    --JP

  18. Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] wrote:


    (Lots of intelligent commentary snipped)

    Quoted message said:

    Recumbents are really cool, but they're also notably
    compromised vehicles. For a long-distance tour over
    relatively flat ground, a recumbent might be the fastest,
    easiest choice of all. But deviations from that formula
    tend to be at the peril of the recumbent's performance
    advantage.

    I don't agree that recumbents are compromised. They just
    aren't suitable for racing with regular bikes. I commute on
    my recumbent every day over a 10 mile, very hilly route. I
    think that my particular bike is an excellent commuter, and
    my times on the recumbent consistently beat my times on an
    upright. In my experience, bikes can't climb: riders can.
    Put a huge guy on an upright and see how fast he climbs.
    It's all about the power to weight ratio. The biggest
    advantages of a recumbent are:

    1. Comfort. There is no comparison. The longer the ride,
    the happier I am to not be riding an upright.

    2. View. I am looking straight ahead at all times. My
    seating position and head height from the rode are about
    the same as if I was driving a Honda Civic.

    3. Ability to carry cargo. I have a large "trunk" on the
    back of my bike which holds lunch, clothes, and
    emergency gear.

    4. Speed. I happen to be a very good climber, not so fast
    on the flats. I make up for the bike's deficiencies (it
    weighs about 40 lbs loaded) and it makes up for mine.

    5. Treatment by cars. Recumbents attract attention, and
    drivers don't lump me in with all the other [censored]
    riders who annoy them. I am never hassled on the
    recumbent. I help the interaction by obeying traffic
    laws and signalling where I am going.

    The biggest downsides are the inability to jump curbs (not a
    problem for me) or go offroad and the need for a place to
    park it. And they are more expensive in general than road
    bikes, but the price range is from about $600 on up. Some
    configurations (lowracers, trikes) seem iffy for traffic
    riding, but others disagree. You can't snake in and out of
    traffic like you can on an upright, but that's not such a
    good idea anyway. If you are interested in really finding
    out about recumbents, go here:

    bentrideronline.combentrideronline.com

    and you can get a sense of the variety of recumbents
    available.

    Mort

  19. On 17 Jun 2004 08:01:38 -0700, [email hidden] (Jeff Potter)

    Quoted message said:

    It's funny seeing all these RBR regulars still being
    wingnuts about the recumbent question.

    Actually the replies were probably the most balanced and non-
    wingnut posted, from either side.

    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
    two wheels...

  20. Robert Chung said:
    Quoted message said:

    How high does one have to be to make such a record attempt
    (and I'm not really talking about altitude)?

    200 mcg

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