Recumbents & Speed?

Hey Potter, check this out...
my.execpc.comtildentt.htmlOpen ↗

It's a bike race. You can show up on any damn bike you feel
like bringing.

Cut this UCI/USCF conspiracy [censored]. Bike racing in this
country doesn't depend on the USCF. If you click on the
'Wisport' link you'll see a schedule for a load of
races, none of which has any connection to the USCF at
all. The series has 'bent categories, but you only see
them at the TTs.

Why do you think that might be? Do you think that maybe,
just maybe, the groundswell of support for racing 'bents
with uprights on equal terms only exists within that
cavernous space riding on your shoulders?

Just maybe?

Bob Schwartz [email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>, Jon

Meinecke said:

"Casey Kerrigan" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

In fact I know of more cases where bents were not let
into a mass start race due to safety concerns

Can you characterize and enumerate these recumbent-
specific safety concerns?

The specific case I know of from last year delt with the
fact the front chainrings didn't have guards on them ( and
thes would be up around the kneews of other riders). This
was in a 50 rider Cat 5 field which featured a 180 degree
turn uphill turn.

"Casey Kerrigan" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can you characterize and enumerate these recumbent-
specific safety concerns?

The specific case I know of from last year delt with the
fact the front chainrings didn't have guards on them ( and
thes would be up around the knees of other riders). This
was in a 50 rider Cat 5 field which featured a 180 degree
turn uphill turn.

Thanks.

I'm not a racer, but I can understand a desire for
specifying, indeed limiting the type of bicycles in a
competition. Uprights only is fine,-- it's their
association's (USCF, UCI) sanctioned events,-- they get to
make the rules. [The reason why some rules are made or
changed can be interesting, to some people, of course.]

I've heard the safety concerns issue raised about mixing
recumbents with upright bikes in mass start events and the
leading chainring is sometimes mentioned. I'm curious if
there are other things that people consider to be "safety
concerns".

Obviously, chain guards could be added, or there are a
number of recumbent designs that don't lead with a
chainring. BTW, those knee-level chainrings may be knee-
level *and chin-level* for some recumbent riders...
%^)

Jon Meinecke

Casey Kerrigan <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... [ ]

Quoted message said:

While I'm sure there were some officials who wer ewillin
to let bents into mass start races I don't think these
offficials were in the majority of officials.

Makes sense. I hope no one got any other impression from my
posts. The fact is that more and more officials were
becoming open-minded about bents over the past 10 years and
more and more were racing and doing better and better.
That's all.

I suspect the rule was done to match UCI and that no one
thought about the good recent USCF experiences with bents.
But I don't really know, obviously. It does seem weird that
it comes after a bent finally won a good agegroup TT in a
big race---wish I had the link to that thing. They called it
the National Champs, held in the SW last year I think.

--JP

Bob Schwartz said:

Hey Potter, check this out...
my.execpc.comtildentt.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

It's a bike race. You can show up on any damn bike you
feel like bringing.

Quoted message said:

Cut this UCI/USCF conspiracy [censored]. Bike racing in this
country doesn't depend on the USCF. If you click on the
'Wisport' link you'll see a schedule for a load of
races, none of which has any connection to the USCF at
all. The series has 'bent categories, but you only see
them at the TTs.

Quoted message said:

Why do you think that might be? Do you think that maybe,
just maybe, the groundswell of support for racing 'bents
with uprights on equal terms only exists within that
cavernous space riding on your shoulders?

One has to wonder why, if entering recumbents into USCF
races is such an important issue with a groundswell of
popular support behind it, Jeff didn't know about the rule
change, while several people in RBR did. Maybe because not
that many people care except those who want to start
disagreements.

A co-worker of mine owns a Lightning. He got it because his
wrists can't take an upright (tendinitis). He doesn't care
about racing it. Most diamond frame bike sales are to non-
racers, as well.

My club puts on an unsanctioned TT open to bents. In the
last few years, only one recumbent rider has ridden it.
I'd say more people have shown up on MTBs. And we have a
recumbent manufacturer in the county, so the bikes are
out there.

In article <[email hidden]>, Jon

Meinecke said:

"Casey Kerrigan" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can you characterize and enumerate these recumbent-
specific safety concerns?

The specific case I know of from last year delt with the
fact the front chainrings didn't have guards on them (
and thes would be up around the knees of other riders).
This was in a 50 rider Cat 5 field which featured a 180
degree turn uphill turn.

Thanks.

I'm not a racer, but I can understand a desire for
specifying, indeed limiting the type of bicycles in a
competition. Uprights only is fine,-- it's their
association's (USCF, UCI) sanctioned events,-- they get to
make the rules. [The reason why some rules are made or
changed can be interesting, to some people, of course.]

I've heard the safety concerns issue raised about mixing
recumbents with upright bikes in mass start events and the
leading chainring is sometimes mentioned. I'm curious if
there are other things that people consider to be "safety
concerns".

Obviously, chain guards could be added, or there are a
number of recumbent designs that don't lead with a
chainring. BTW, those knee-level chainrings may be knee-
level *and chin-level* for some recumbent riders...
%^)

I think the only reason the recumbent rider was at this race
and tried to enter the Cat 5 race was because of the
recumbent category later that afternoon ( yes this USCF
event has a recumbent only category that runs after all the
USCF events have been completed).

On 24 Jun 2004 05:21:44 -0700, [email hidden] (Jeff Potter)

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
news:<[email hidden]>... [ ]

Quoted message said:

What is stopping the public from riding recumbents if
they're so good?

Ah, nothing. Point being? The public is indeed riding them
more and more. Check number of bents in centuries compared
to 10 yrs ago.

Hmmm. 10 times almost nothing is still almost nothing.

Quoted message said:

I complained about the top-down process which apparently
ignored officials growing goodwill to 'benters.

Goodwill towards recumbents? Where? Why? I don't
believe you.

Frankly you're like a kid complaining that other kids don't
want to play some strange game. If you like it so much, play
with yourself but don't get all bent out of shape that
others don't want to play.

JT

Steve <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... [ ]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> PS: Ya know, it's a bike race, not a tea party. If a
> rider wants to ride with someone, they can do
> that, they can make it happen and cooperate as
> best they can. If it suits me more to not do that,
> fine. I owe other riders nothing. Riders take
> different lines intentionally all the time to
> throw off other riders. If a rider is deemed
> unsafe, he'll be dumped, or officials won't let
> him start. So don't worry about me unless you have
> something to talk to an official about. If you
> can't get my wheel that's your problem. Take it
> from there and see who wins. ---JP

Dear Jeffy........

It AIN'T gonna happen! Shut your pie hole!

Dear little boy crybaby... Take your ball and go home.
If you can. But you can't. The day you can tell a bike
racer, or anyone other adult, what to do is what isn't
going to happen.

--JP

Just give it up dumbass...... It will NEVER happen
(wanna bet??)

Uh, right. It will never happen that you will influence
anyone. Like I said.

--JP

On 24 Jun 2004 12:28:26 -0700, [email hidden] (Jeff Potter)

Quoted message said:

They called it the National Champs, held in the SW last
year I think.

Well, the web site calls it the National Record Challenge,
which is NOT the national championships. The winner of the
Nats are listed on the USCF web site and he is not among
them. They are listed for the last three years, which makes
sense as this year's are yet to be run.

Generally speaking, I would expect a wider group of
competitors for the true Nats, versus an event held in New
Mexico that AFAIK has no benefit other than a chance to ride
on a fast course.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
two wheels...

"Jeff Potter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]> wrote
in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[ ]

Quoted message said:

What is stopping the public from riding recumbents if
they're so good?

Ah, nothing. Point being? The public is indeed riding them
more and more. Check number of bents in centuries compared
to 10 yrs ago.

You're quite correct Jeff. Now instead of seeing a recumbent
once a year at the Great American Bicycle Rally I see one
perhaps every other month.

In article <[email hidden]>, Tom

Kunich said:

"Jeff Potter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]> wrote
in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[ ]

Quoted message said:

What is stopping the public from riding recumbents if
they're so good?

Ah, nothing. Point being? The public is indeed riding
them more and more. Check number of bents in centuries
compared to 10 yrs ago.

You're quite correct Jeff. Now instead of seeing a
recumbent once a year at the Great American Bicycle Rally
I see one perhaps every other month.

On the bike trail here in Sacramento I see at least a few
'bents every week, but that's still only about one 'bent
bike for every 200 normal bikes.

-WG

[email hidden] (Jeff Potter) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Steve <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... [ ]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> PS: Ya know, it's a bike race, not a tea party. If a
>> rider wants to ride with someone, they can do
>> that, they can make it happen and cooperate as
>> best they can. If it suits me more to not do
>> that, fine. I owe other riders nothing. Riders
>> take different lines intentionally all the time
>> to throw off other riders. If a rider is deemed
>> unsafe, he'll be dumped, or officials won't let
>> him start. So don't worry about me unless you
>> have something to talk to an official about. If
>> you can't get my wheel that's your problem. Take
>> it from there and see who wins. ---JP
>
> Dear Jeffy........
>
> It AIN'T gonna happen! Shut your pie hole!

Dear little boy crybaby... Take your ball and go home.
If you can. But you can't. The day you can tell a bike
racer, or anyone other adult, what to do is what isn't
going to happen.

--JP

Just give it up dumbass...... It will NEVER happen
(wanna bet??)

Uh, right. It will never happen that you will influence
anyone. Like I said.

--JP

Aren't recumbents just for guys with bushy beards, helmet
mirrors, flags, long socks, and hairy legs?? Just as an
aside... If bents were to race with the regular folks (not
that they'd ever get close to winning a cat 5 crit let alone
something tougher); how do you field sprint on that thing??
I'm betting that can't happen.

Tom

Tom Arsenault said:

[email hidden] (Jeff Potter) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Steve <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... [ ]

Quoted message said:

>>>PS: Ya know, it's a bike race, not a tea party. If a
>>> rider wants to ride with someone, they can do
>>> that, they can make it happen and cooperate as
>>> best they can. If it suits me more to not do that,
>>> fine. I owe other riders nothing. Riders take
>>> different lines intentionally all the time to
>>> throw off other riders. If a rider is deemed
>>> unsafe, he'll be dumped, or officials won't let
>>> him start. So don't worry about me unless you have
>>> something to talk to an official about. If you
>>> can't get my wheel that's your problem. Take it
>>> from there and see who wins. ---JP
>>
>>Dear Jeffy........
>>
>>It AIN'T gonna happen! Shut your pie hole!
>
>Dear little boy crybaby... Take your ball and go home.
>If you can. But you can't. The day you can tell a bike
>racer, or anyone other adult, what to do is what isn't
>going to happen.
>
>--JP

Just give it up dumbass...... It will NEVER happen
(wanna bet??)

Uh, right. It will never happen that you will influence
anyone. Like I said.

--JP

Aren't recumbents just for guys with bushy beards, helmet
mirrors, flags, long socks, and hairy legs?? Just as an
aside... If bents were to race with the regular folks (not
that they'd ever get close to winning a cat 5 crit let
alone something tougher); how do you field sprint on that
thing?? I'm betting that can't happen.

Don't look now, but the 4-man recumbent team just beat all
the 4-man upright teams on RAAM. Of course, RAAM is not as
tough as a CAT 5 criterium, is it?

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

[email hidden] (Tom Arsenault) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Jeff Potter) wrote in message [ ]

Quoted message said:

Aren't recumbents just for guys with bushy beards, helmet
mirrors, flags, long socks, and hairy legs?? Just as an
aside... If bents were to race with the regular folks (not
that they'd ever get close to winning a cat 5 crit let
alone something tougher); how do you field sprint on that
thing?? I'm betting that can't happen.

Tom

I thought I posted some links to hpv news sites early in
this thread that put that myth to rest. But yer just bein
funny. Anyway, anyone with an interest could find out what a
lame idea you've just posted. (Oh here are some links again:
speedbikes.chspeedbikes.chOpen ↗, m5-ligfietsen.commain.phpOpen ↗
Races, speed101.comgalleryOpen ↗)

An unfaired one won a UCI prolog a couple years ago. They've
been winning Euro/US TT's for awhile. Plus at least one Euro
"open" road event.

They're not just for geeks anymore. Of course they came up
as part of hardcore racing R&D. They've always had both the
comfort and the speed angles involved in their development---
parallel tracks. Those who do well on the HPRA circuit and
World Champs are plain old bike racers and look like them.

I lapped an all-cats crit with one (unfaired) a few years
ago---only about 20 riders showed up, but it was a money
race with actual teams.

What's weird about field sprinting? Wind er up and let er
rip. They have as good a jump as any. Not out of the
saddle, but when you're going fast that's not so useful
anyway, is it.

--JP

[email hidden] (Kiem Madvanen) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Grow up. If you really feel a need to race recumbents
more, organize some races. If you really feel a need to
beat upright bikes while on your recumbent, organizer a
race that allows both.

This has been suggested to Potter many times in the past,
he just sidesteps the question. He's like a lot of people
- plenty of energy when it comes to complaining, zero
energy when it comes to actually doing something.

Zub

??

What does 'bents in the USCF have to do with starting a new
event? Nothing. So there's nothing to sidestep. It's a
separate point.

There are of course HPV races already.

The thread was about the separate situation that there
was an increase in USCF officials who were accepting
'bents and an increase in 'bent-racers who were doing
USCF events legally. It was a scene that was already
happening and developing and which was cut off. No
reasons have been provided other than guesses that the
USCF wants to copy the UCI.

See the diff?

--JP

Tom Sherman said:

Tom Arsenault said:

[email hidden] (Jeff Potter) wrote in message news:-
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Steve <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... [ ]

>>>> PS: Ya know, it's a bike race, not a tea party. If a
>>>> rider wants to ride with someone, they can do
>>>> that, they can make it happen and cooperate as
>>>> best they can. If it suits me more to not do
>>>> that, fine. I owe other riders nothing. Riders
>>>> take different lines intentionally all the time
>>>> to throw off other riders. If a rider is deemed
>>>> unsafe, he'll be dumped, or officials won't let
>>>> him start. So don't worry about me unless you
>>>> have something to talk to an official about. If
>>>> you can't get my wheel that's your problem. Take
>>>> it from there and see who wins. ---JP
>>>
>>> Dear Jeffy........
>>>
>>> It AIN'T gonna happen! Shut your pie hole!
>>
>> Dear little boy crybaby... Take your ball and go home.
>> If you can. But you can't. The day you can tell a bike
>> racer, or anyone other adult, what to do is what isn't
>> going to happen.
>>
>> --JP
>
> Just give it up dumbass...... It will NEVER happen
> (wanna bet??)

Uh, right. It will never happen that you will influence
anyone. Like I said.

--JP

Aren't recumbents just for guys with bushy beards, helmet
mirrors, flags, long socks, and hairy legs?? Just as an
aside... If bents were to race with the regular folks
(not that they'd ever get close to winning a cat 5 crit
let alone something tougher); how do you field sprint on
that thing?? I'm betting that can't happen.

Don't look now, but the 4-man recumbent team just beat all
the 4-man upright teams on RAAM. Of course, RAAM is not as
tough as a CAT 5 criterium, is it?

You DUMBASS!!!!!

It is a F'ing RECUMBENT!! They are made to be lower and more
AERO!! And they BARELY won?? Looks more like they got there
aero asses kicked!!

"Steve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 6/26/04 10:32 PM, in article 2k747lF17o2jlU1@uni-
berlin.de, "Tom

Sherman"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Don't look now, but the 4-man recumbent team just beat
all the 4-man upright teams on RAAM. Of course, RAAM is
not as tough as a CAT 5 criterium, is it?

You DUMBASS!!!!!

It is a F'ing RECUMBENT!! They are made to be lower and
more AERO!! And they BARELY won?? Looks more like they got
there aero asses kicked!!

LOL at the new direction of the SPIN. Can it get any better
than this?

skip (who in no way wants to denigrate the outstanding
accomplishment of the Team Action Sports)

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:30:34 GMT, Steve <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

It is a F'ing RECUMBENT!! They are made to be lower and
more AERO!! And they BARELY won?? Looks more like they got
there aero asses kicked!!

I think they were holding back to give the wedgies a draft.
Rob English beat the UK 4-man pursuit champions without too
much difficulty. Single handed. Unfaired. Except there were
only three left at the end after he dropped one of them...

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.ukOpen ↗

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
Washington University

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:30:34 GMT, Steve
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

It is a F'ing RECUMBENT!! They are made to be lower and
more AERO!! And they BARELY won?? Looks more like they
got there aero asses kicked!!

I think they were holding back to give the wedgies a
draft. Rob English beat the UK 4-man pursuit champions
without too much difficulty. Single handed. Unfaired.
Except there were only three left at the end after he
dropped one of them...

Was Rob English on a fixed gear?

On 27 Jun 2004 05:22:13 -0700, [email hidden] (Jeff Potter)

Quoted message said:

An unfaired one won a UCI prolog a couple years ago.
They've been winning Euro/US TT's for awhile.

I think you are lying. What race? And do you have more
details.

JT