Vinegar

The Joneses said:

I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this
concerns us both. I know that vinegar is made from
fermentation thru alcohol phase of various things. Has
anyone ever had religious/moral reservations about using
an alcohol product that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a
truly international city and some have declined to try my
pickles at the farmer's market because I use champagne
stock or red wine vinegar. It is important to me to say
exactly what I put in my products, and I'd like to be able
to discuss this intelligently. Thoughts? Edrena

That would depend on what the precise objection is. Properly
made vinegar is halal (the 'intoxicating principle' has been
removed, so Muslims can use it. The preference is for
vinegars made directly from fruits, grains etc, rather than
those made from pre-made alcohols.

There will always be people who object on the basis that
perhaps a little alcohol still remains.

Have you any pickles made with other vinegars to offer?

The Joneses said:

I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this
concerns us both. I know that vinegar is made from
fermentation thru alcohol phase of various things. Has
anyone ever had religious/moral reservations about using
an alcohol product that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a
truly international city and some have declined to try my
pickles at the farmer's market because I use champagne
stock or red wine vinegar. It is important to me to say
exactly what I put in my products, and I'd like to be able
to discuss this intelligently. Thoughts? Edrena

If your product is heated the alcohol will vapor off and
only leave the taste of the original wine or champagne. Lots
of folks cook with wine knowing full well that the alcohol
content is nil once it heats up. IIRC the boiling point of
alcohol is well below that of water. The wine vinegars have
absolutely no alcoholic content so I don't understand the
objection to using it for pickling.

George

Quoted message said:

The Joneses jones:

I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this
concerns us both.

Crossposting is *never* appropriate... it's the most
conspicuous indicator of Newbiedumb.

I know that vinegar is made from fermentation thru

Quoted message said:

alcohol phase of various things. Has anyone ever had
religious/moral reservations about using an alcohol product
that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a truly international
city and some have declined to try my pickles at the
farmer's market because I use champagne stock or red wine
vinegar. It is important to me to say exactly what I put in
my products, and I'd like to be able to discuss this
intelligently.

Were you intelligent (you're not) you'd not attempt in any
way whatsoever to proselytize others... if someone does not
wish to partake then who are you to debate against their
beliefs. Me, I've no reservations regarding alcohol, so I
figure the more others decline the more for me... right now
as I type I'm sucking down Belize Cane Juice Rum with
Tropicana pink grapefruit juice, rocks, rocks!

I strongly suggest you drop it, and simply peddle your
pickles *quietly*.

---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =--- ---= Move
UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without
tribulation." Sheldon ````````````

The Joneses said:

I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this
concerns us both. I know that vinegar is made from
fermentation thru alcohol phase of various things. Has
anyone ever had religious/moral reservations about using an
alcohol product that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a truly
international city and some have declined to try my pickles
at the farmer's market because I use champagne stock or red
wine vinegar. It is important to me to say exactly what I
put in my products, and I'd like to be able to discuss this
intelligently. Thoughts?

It's best just to let folks like that be - It's their loss,
and IMO, are being unnecessarily fussy. Just be sure to let
them know that bread has alcohol in it, as well as tons of
other products that they probably eat every day.

-sw

In rec.food.cooking The Joneses said:

I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this
concerns us both. I know that vinegar is made from
fermentation thru alcohol phase of various things. Has
anyone ever had religious/moral reservations about using
an alcohol product that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a
truly international city and some have declined to try my
pickles at the farmer's market because I use champagne
stock or red wine vinegar. It is important to me to say
exactly what I put in my products, and I'd like to be able
to discuss this intelligently. Thoughts?

I am struck by the irony of your request for
intelligent discussion of your customer's
superstitions. They think that there is some kind of
big guy in the sky, who tells us earthlings what to do.
And he says not to eat certain things. Or else they
will be doing something he calls a "sin".

My suggestion: Congratulate them on their piety, and look
for rational customers.

--
...I'm an air-conditioned gypsy...

- The Who

The Joneses <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this
concerns us both. I know that vinegar is made from
fermentation thru alcohol phase of various things. Has
anyone ever had religious/moral reservations about using
an alcohol product that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a
truly international city and some have declined to try my
pickles at the farmer's market because I use champagne
stock or red wine vinegar. It is important to me to say
exactly what I put in my products, and I'd like to be able
to discuss this intelligently. Thoughts? Edrena

If you refer to Claudia Roden's "Book of Middle Eastern
Food," one of the most often cited English language texts on
the subject, the pickle recipes all call for wine vinegar.
However, my Palestinan friend, Johnny, who used ot one a
Middle Eastern restaurant, uses a salt water brine without
alcohol. This isn't for religious reasons: He drinks beer.

-bwg

(PENMART01) said:

Crossposting is *never* appropriate... it's the most
conspicuous indicator of Newbiedumb.

Posting from AOL is the best indicator of dumbness, hands
down. Corssposting can sometimes be appropriate, but is
highly abused especially when it comes to politics.

-sw

Arri London said:

The Joneses said:

Has anyone ever had religious/moral reservations about
using an alcohol product that isn't alcohol anymore?
Thoughts?

That would depend on what the precise objection is.
Properly made vinegar is halal (the 'intoxicating
principle' has been removed, so Muslims can use it. The
preference is for vinegars made directly from fruits,
grains etc, rather than those made from pre-made alcohols.
There will always be people who object on the basis that
perhaps a little alcohol still remains. Have you any
pickles made with other vinegars to offer?

Thanks for the great advice - one of my objectees was a
Muslim lady. But those eets had red wine as well so I
understand that part. I'm always looking for interesting
pickles, and I might try the sweet mix with cider vinegar.
Regular white grain vinegar is a bit harsh, I like the wine
stuff. Who knows what some herb vinegars may be made with? I
respect anyone who won't do *any* alcohol related item, but
I like the stuff - fresh, fermented or finegar. Edrena

George Shirley said:

The Joneses said:

I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this
concerns us both. I know that vinegar is made from
fermentation thru alcohol phase of various things. Has
anyone ever had religious/moral reservations about using
an alcohol product that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a
truly international city and some have declined to try my
pickles at the farmer's market because I use champagne
stock or red wine vinegar. It is important to me to say
exactly what I put in my products, and I'd like to be
able to discuss this intelligently. Thoughts? Edrena

If your product is heated the alcohol will vapor off and
only leave the taste of the original wine or champagne.
Lots of folks cook with wine knowing full well that the
alcohol content is nil once it heats up. IIRC the boiling
point of alcohol is well below that of water.

Actually, that's not true. It's called an azeotropic
mixture. A vigorous boil for a few minutes might boil off
2/3 of the alcohol, but you can never boil off all the
alcohol until all the water is gone too. That's also why you
cannot distill alcohol any stronger than 95%. If you need to
get rid of that last 5% water, you have to absorb it out
with something that has a great affinity for water, like
sulfuric acid (I don't know if sulfuric acid would work or
if it would attack the alcohol, it's just an example).

Quoted message said:

The wine vinegars have absolutely no alcoholic content so
I don't understand the objection to using it for pickling.

Some people don't know that vinegar is made from alcohol,
and they find even the mention of anything alcoholic
offensive. It doesn't matter to them that there is no
alcohol left after the conversion to vinegar -- they know
the alcohol used to be in there, dammit!

Perhaps it would be best to just label some of the jars that
they are made with the finest "grape vinegar". ;-)

Bob

"Arri London" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The Joneses said:

I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this
concerns us both. I know that vinegar is made from
fermentation thru alcohol phase of various things. Has
anyone ever had religious/moral reservations about using
an alcohol product that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a
truly international city and some have declined to try
my pickles at the farmer's market because I use
champagne stock or red wine vinegar. It is important to
me to say exactly what I put in my products, and I'd
like to be able to discuss this intelligently. Thoughts?
Edrena

That would depend on what the precise objection is.
Properly made vinegar is halal (the 'intoxicating
principle' has been removed, so Muslims can use it. The
preference is for vinegars made directly from fruits,
grains etc, rather than those made from pre-made alcohols.

There will always be people who object on the basis that
perhaps a little alcohol still remains.

Have you any pickles made with other vinegars to offer?

My understanding is that all vinegar comes from alcohol -
the "mother of vinegar" microorganisms convert alcohol into
acetic acid. It usually is not two separate steps. For
example I seriously doubt that any champaign vinegar is made
from actual champaign but rather from champaign grapes. So,
in the vat yeast convertsd the sugars to alcohol which is
then converted to acetic acid.

In my opinion objecting to vinegar because it came from
alcohol is excessive silly and moronic. I realize the OP
needs to be diplomatic but I would take some pleasure in
telling these doofuses that all vinegar comes from alcohol.

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the [censored] from my email address before using.

"George Shirley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The Joneses said:

I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this
concerns us both. I know that vinegar is made from
fermentation thru alcohol phase of various things. Has
anyone ever had religious/moral reservations about using
an alcohol product that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a
truly international city and some have declined to try
my pickles at the farmer's market because I use
champagne stock or red wine vinegar. It is important to
me to say exactly what I put in my products, and I'd
like to be able to discuss this intelligently. Thoughts?
Edrena

If your product is heated the alcohol will vapor off and
only leave the taste of the original wine or champagne.
Lots of folks cook with wine knowing full well that the
alcohol content is nil once it heats up. IIRC the boiling
point of alcohol is well below that of water. The wine
vinegars have absolutely no alcoholic content so I don't
understand the objection to using it for pickling.

George

The idea that alcohol will all disappear during cooking is
another persistent myth. That its boiling point is lower
than water plays a role but does *not* mean that all the
alcohol will all boil off first. It means rather that the
alcohol will boil off faster than the water. If, for
example, you put alcohol is a a dish and simmer it for 15
minutes, 40% of the alc still remains. After 2.5 hurs 5%
still remains. THis is from experiments conducted by the
USDA Nutrient Data Lasboratory. More details at
ochef.com165.htmOpen ↗

Peter Aitken

Quoted message said:

My suggestion: Congratulate them on their piety, and look
for rational customers.

Yeah, not my place to question why or anything... we were
told to respectfully wish cranky unreasonable persons a nice
day and ignore them after. Edrena

in article [email hidden], [email hidden] at
[email hidden] wrote on 11/6/04 7:03 am:

Quoted message said:

In rec.food.cooking The Joneses

Quoted message said:

I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this
concerns us both. I know that vinegar is made from
fermentation thru alcohol phase of various things. Has
anyone ever had religious/moral reservations about using
an alcohol product that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a
truly international city and some have declined to try my
pickles at the farmer's market because I use champagne
stock or red wine vinegar. It is important to me to say
exactly what I put in my products, and I'd like to be
able to discuss this intelligently. Thoughts?

I am struck by the irony of your request for
intelligent discussion of your customer's
superstitions. They think that there is some kind of
big guy in the sky, who tells us earthlings what to do.
And he says not to eat certain things. Or else they
will be doing something he calls a "sin".

My suggestion: Congratulate them on their piety, and look
for rational customers.

I am neither christian, jewish, buddhist nor muslim, but I
think that we should confine ourselves here to matters of
preserving and food content, not knocking other people's
religious beliefs. Ellen

Barry Grau said:

Has anyone ever had

Quoted message said:

religious/moral reservations about using an alcohol
product that isn't alcohol anymore?

If you refer to Claudia Roden's "Book of Middle Eastern
Food," one of the most often cited English language texts
on the subject, the pickle recipes all call for wine
vinegar. However, my Palestinan friend, Johnny, who used
ot one a Middle Eastern restaurant, uses a salt water
brine without alcohol. This isn't for religious reasons:
He drinks beer. -bwg

There's an idea. I haven't been too lucky with brined
things, but I'll try again. Edrena

Peter Aitken said:

In my opinion objecting to vinegar because it came from
alcohol is excessive silly and moronic. I realize the OP
needs to be diplomatic but I would take some pleasure in
telling these doofuses that all vinegar comes from
alcohol.

Good points, esp the part about not *staying* alcoholic.
Now I have some information at least and points of view. I
can't imagine a life without vinegar or pickles. Must be
dull. Edrena

Peter Aitken said:

"Arri London" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The Joneses said:

I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this
concerns us both. I know that vinegar is made from
fermentation thru alcohol phase of various things. Has
anyone ever had religious/moral reservations about using
an alcohol product that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a
truly international city and some have declined to try my
pickles at the farmer's market because I use champagne
stock or red wine vinegar. It is important to me to say
exactly what I put in my products, and I'd like to be
able to discuss this intelligently. Thoughts? Edrena

That would depend on what the precise objection is.
Properly made vinegar is halal (the 'intoxicating
principle' has been removed, so Muslims can use it. The
preference is for vinegars made directly from fruits,
grains etc, rather than those made from pre-made alcohols.

There will always be people who object on the basis that
perhaps a little alcohol still remains.

Have you any pickles made with other vinegars to offer?

My understanding is that all vinegar comes from alcohol -
the "mother of vinegar" microorganisms convert alcohol
into acetic acid.

Actually this isn't quite so. Much white vinegar is just
acetic acid and water, ands is usually made by bacterial
action, but it doesn't have to be. The acetic acid can be
produced from several sources not involving bacterial action
including petrochemical catalyzation or alcohol
carbonylation.

Quoted message said:

It usually is not two separate steps. For example I
seriously doubt that any champaign vinegar is made from
actual champaign but rather from champaign grapes. So, in
the vat yeast converts the sugars to alcohol which is then
converted to acetic acid.

It can be two steps or one. In the two-step process, yeasts
convert carbs to alcohol and acetobacters convert alcohol to
acetic acid. In the single-step approach, acetobacters
ferment sugars, starches and alcohol to acetic acid.

Quoted message said:

In my opinion objecting to vinegar because it came from
alcohol is excessive silly and moronic. I realize the OP
needs to be diplomatic but I would take some pleasure in
telling these doofuses that all vinegar comes from
alcohol.

I think it's beyond silly. It's the sort of foolishness that
fundamentalist and orthodox adherents overlay on what would
otherwise be simple value systems. Ritual for its own sake
that finally ends up subverting the central messages.

Pastorio

Ellen Wickberg said:

in article [email hidden],
[email hidden] at
[email hidden] wrote on 11/6/04 7:03 am:

Quoted message said:

In rec.food.cooking The Joneses <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this
concerns us both. I know that vinegar is made from
fermentation thru alcohol phase of various things. Has
anyone ever had religious/moral reservations about
using an alcohol product that isn't alcohol anymore? We
have a truly international city and some have declined
to try my pickles at the farmer's market because I use
champagne stock or red wine vinegar. It is important to
me to say exactly what I put in my products, and I'd
like to be able to discuss this intelligently.
Thoughts?

My suggestion: Congratulate them on their piety, and
look for rational customers.

I am neither christian, jewish, buddhist nor muslim, but I
think that we should confine ourselves here to matters of
preserving and food content, not knocking other people's
religious beliefs. Ellen

And with that I thank all of you for your suggestions,
thoughts, facts, wit and wisdom. Food is, of course,
influenced by politics & religion (or vicy versa?), but I
just won't go there today. I did put up some Madras Pickled
Eggplant yesterday. I feel like it'll improve with a coupla
weeks' aging. I had to look up Madras to find out which
province it was in. And which country this year. If I can't
actually visit all the world, I'll just make their pickles.
One by one.

Edrena

Peter Aitken said:

"Arri London" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The Joneses said:

I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this
concerns us both. I know that vinegar is made from
fermentation thru alcohol phase of various things. Has
anyone ever had religious/moral reservations about
using an alcohol product that isn't alcohol anymore?
We have a truly international city and some have
declined to try my pickles at the farmer's market
because I use champagne stock or red wine vinegar. It
is important to me to say exactly what I put in my
products, and I'd like to be able to discuss this
intelligently. Thoughts? Edrena

That would depend on what the precise objection is.
Properly made vinegar is halal (the 'intoxicating
principle' has been removed, so Muslims can use it. The
preference is for vinegars made directly from fruits,
grains etc, rather than those made from pre-made
alcohols.

There will always be people who object on the basis that
perhaps a little alcohol still remains.

Have you any pickles made with other vinegars to offer?

My understanding is that all vinegar comes from alcohol -
the "mother of vinegar" microorganisms convert alcohol
into acetic acid. It usually is not two separate steps.

A lot of homemade vinegar is made from alcohol, rather than
starting from fruit or grains. Some commercial vinegars are
made the same way.

Quoted message said:

For example I seriously doubt that any champaign
vinegar is made from actual champaign but rather from
champaign grapes.

And you know this for certain?

Quoted message said:

So, in the vat yeast convertsd the sugars to alcohol which
is then converted to acetic acid.

In my opinion objecting to vinegar because it came from
alcohol is excessive silly and moronic.

No one has actually asked for your opinion. But of course
*any* food objections you have are entirely logical and
intelligent.

I realize the OP needs to be diplomatic but I would take

Quoted message said:

some pleasure in telling these doofuses that all vinegar
comes from alcohol.

--
Peter Aitken

No doubt you would. It certainly is good for business....

I don't think it's really a good idea--or productive--to get
involved in "educating" someone on these issues, no matter
what opinions you may personally hold. It can only lead to
grief and hard feelings, not to mention loss of business and
possibly even your venue if I'm reading this right.

Just look vaguely into the distance and smile, lips-together-teeth-
apart, and say, "Sorry I can't help you unless you can tell
me what you can have and I can make it. Good luck with your
search." Then turn quickly to whomever is nearest you and
say, "Did I mention the news about Sam....."

B/