Vinegar

"Arri London" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Aitken said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For example I seriously doubt that any champaign vinegar
is made from actual champaign but rather from champaign
grapes.

And you know this for certain?

Well no Arri I figure they make champagne, put it in
bottles, put the cork in, let it sit in the cellar for a
while to get carbonated, then take the cork out, pour it
into a vat, and then make vinegar. Duh! I know that some
wine vinegars are made in 2 steps, wine first then vinegar,
but I can't see them doing that for champagne vinegar
although I can't claim it never happens.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In my opinion objecting to vinegar because it came from
alcohol is

excessive

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

silly and moronic.

No one has actually asked for your opinion. But of course
*any* food objections you have are entirely logical and
intelligent.

Nope - I have almost no food objections and those that I do
have are neither logical nor intelligent.

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the [censored] from my email address before using.

Peter Aitken said:

My understanding is that all vinegar comes from alcohol -
the "mother of vinegar" microorganisms convert alcohol
into acetic acid. It usually is not two separate steps.

I thought that "mother of vinegar" referred not to the
microorganisms (bacteria) that do the fermentation, but to
some sludge thrown off later in the process.

Steve

Steve Pope said:

Peter Aitken said:

My understanding is that all vinegar comes from alcohol -
the "mother of vinegar" microorganisms convert alcohol
into acetic acid. It usually is not two separate steps.

I thought that "mother of vinegar" referred not to the
microorganisms (bacteria) that do the fermentation, but to
some sludge thrown off later in the process.

Steve

Here is the definition of it:

A slimy, gummy substance made up of various bacteria —
specifically mycoderma aceti — that cause fermentation in
wine and cider and turn them into vinegar. Known as mère
de vinaigre in French and sometimes simply as "mother" in
English, its growth is best fostered in a medium-warm
environment (60°-85°F). The mother should be transferred
to a new mixture or discarded once the liquid has turned
to vinegar.

Christine

Steve Pope said:

I thought that "mother of vinegar" referred not to the
microorganisms (bacteria) that do the fermentation, but to
some sludge thrown off later in the process.

Both. It's the sludge that does the fermentation. Actually,
more like slime.

B/

"Steve Pope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Aitken said:

My understanding is that all vinegar comes from alcohol
- the "mother of vinegar" microorganisms convert alcohol
into acetic acid. It usually is not two separate steps.

I thought that "mother of vinegar" referred not to the
microorganisms (bacteria) that do the fermentation, but to
some sludge thrown off later in the process.

Steve

Nope - that's the "son of vinegar." <g

WardNA said:

Quoted message said:

I might try the sweet mix with cider vinegar. Regular
white grain vinegar is a bit harsh, I like the wine stuff.

The distinction between wine vinegars and other vinegars
is irrelevant from an alcohol standpoint; all are derived
from some kind of alcohol.

But the answer is "no." I've never heard of any religion
or cult objecting to vinegar on the grounds that it is an
alcohol derivative.

Which seems odd. After all, didn't the Roman soldiers use
a sponge soaked in vinegar to mock Our Lord as he
testified?

Neil

I believe the wine mixed with myrrh was somewhat narcotic
(like laudanum); so it was given to those condemned to
crucifixion to ease the pain a little, and more importantly,
to speed the execution along because the guards had better
things to do.

Bob

In rec.food.cooking said:

Food IS the religion here. We are merely punishing
apostacy.

IOW: If they won't eat vinegar, then to hell with them! 🙂

--
...I'm an air-conditioned gypsy...

- The Who

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In rec.food.cooking said:

Food IS the religion here. We are merely punishing
apostacy.

IOW: If they won't eat vinegar, then to hell with them! 🙂

In hell, the salads have no vinegar, the cheese is all
velveeta, and the steaks are all well done.

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the [censored] from my email address before using.

Peter Aitken said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In rec.food.cooking said:

Food IS the religion here. We are merely punishing
apostacy.

IOW: If they won't eat vinegar, then to hell with
them! 🙂

In hell, the salads have no vinegar, the cheese is all
velveeta, and the steaks are all well done.

--
Peter Aitken

Enjoy your dinner!

zxcvbob said:

George Shirley said:

The Joneses said:

I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this
concerns us both. I know that vinegar is made from
fermentation thru alcohol phase of various things. Has
anyone ever had religious/moral reservations about
using an alcohol product that isn't alcohol anymore? We
have a truly international city and some have declined
to try my pickles at the farmer's market because I use
champagne stock or red wine vinegar. It is important to
me to say exactly what I put in my products, and I'd
like to be able to discuss this intelligently.
Thoughts? Edrena

If your product is heated the alcohol will vapor off and
only leave the taste of the original wine or champagne.
Lots of folks cook with wine knowing full well that the
alcohol content is nil once it heats up. IIRC the
boiling point of alcohol is well below that of water.

Actually, that's not true. It's called an azeotropic
mixture. A vigorous boil for a few minutes might boil off
2/3 of the alcohol, but you can never boil off all the
alcohol until all the water is gone too. That's also why
you cannot distill alcohol any stronger than 95%. If you
need to get rid of that last 5% water, you have to absorb
it out with something that has a great affinity for water,
like sulfuric acid (I don't know if sulfuric acid would
work or if it would attack the alcohol, it's just an
example).

Quoted message said:

The wine vinegars have absolutely no alcoholic content
so I don't understand the objection to using it for
pickling.

Some people don't know that vinegar is made from alcohol,
and they find even the mention of anything alcoholic
offensive. It doesn't matter to them that there is no
alcohol left after the conversion to vinegar -- they know
the alcohol used to be in there, dammit!

I know during Passover some foods normally made with vinegar
are made instead with "Sour Salt" - what is that, citric
acid? Ascorbic acid? I forget. Anyway, would a solution of
that work well enough? And how would we mix it in?

Blanche Nonken said:

"Sour Salt" - what is that, citric acid?

That's it.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot)
com

Blanche Nonken said:

I know during Passover some foods normally made with
vinegar are made instead with "Sour Salt"

That has to do more with special rules for grape products,
as well as white vinegar being grain. Apple cider vinegar is
KLP. Then again, I think we both know a certain newsgroup to
ask about that in... <G>.....

Quoted message said:

- what is that, citric acid? Ascorbic acid?

Citric. Same stuff as coats those "super sour"
Japanese candies.

Quoted message said:

I forget. Anyway, would a solution of that work well
enough?

I'd think so, if it affected the pH. But one might need more
sophisticated equipment, like litmus strips or something.
Then again, if it tastes sour, it's probably low enough.

Quoted message said:

And how would we mix it in?

Mix it with some of the brine, I'd imagine then pour that
into the kettle.

B/

A month or so ago, I bought a jug of cheap vinegar for
pickling. After I got it home I noticed a sticker on the
lable that ammended "Red Wine Vinegar" to "Red Wine
Vinegar Style"

The ingredient list: water, acetic acid, red wine, red wine
concntrate.

Obviously not made to get around the alcohol question, but
some lab-produced thing nonetheless. It did pickle the
vegetables, but I won't buy it again.

michael

Reg said:

Blanche Nonken said:

"Sour Salt" - what is that, citric acid?

That's it.

All that's a little beyond my skills so far. I'll leave
specialty foods to the people who use them, or do them best.
But's it's been an interesting discussion for sure. Edrena

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:33:19 -0500, bulka <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

A month or so ago, I bought a jug of cheap vinegar for
pickling. After I got it home I noticed a sticker on the
lable that ammended "Red Wine Vinegar" to "Red Wine
Vinegar Style"

The ingredient list: water, acetic acid, red wine, red wine
concntrate.

Obviously not made to get around the alcohol question, but
some lab-produced thing nonetheless. It did pickle the
vegetables, but I won't buy it again.

This junk has been around for a long time. You have to be
*VERY* suspicious of all food products and read the labels
very cautiously, and read the small print too. I take my
reading glasses with me to the store nowadays.

My husband is from the UK, which evidently has more consumer-
friendly labeling laws and enforces them. He keeps making
the mistake of BELIEVING labels in the USA, and I keep
pointing out that no, it's not that way. 'Whole wheat bread'
is a good example: this does NOT mean '100% whole wheat' in
the USA unless it *says* '100% whole wheat'. Etc.

Pat
--
To email me, remove the trap and type my first
name in its place.

"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry

So would daughter of vinegar be vinaigrette?

"Peter Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Pope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Aitken said:

My understanding is that all vinegar comes from
alcohol - the "mother of vinegar" microorganisms
convert alcohol into acetic acid. It usually is not
two separate steps.

I thought that "mother of vinegar" referred not to the
microorganisms (bacteria) that do the fermentation, but
to some sludge thrown off later in the process.

Steve

Nope - that's the "son of vinegar." <g

The Joneses said:

Reg said:

Blanche Nonken said:

"Sour Salt" - what is that, citric acid?

That's it.

All that's a little beyond my skills so far. I'll leave
specialty foods to the people who use them, or do them
best. But's it's been an interesting discussion for sure.

It usually comes in shakers like salt. Looks like salt and
is pure citric acid. Has a sour, lemony taste and a little
bit can make the flavors of foods sparkle as would a squeeze
of lemon juice. It also lowers pH so it can make foods for
canning that are of marginal acidity safer to BWB.

You want to sprinkle a pinch of it on a chicken you're
roasting or on veggies to nuke. Wonderful.

Pastorio

Quoted message said:

bulka said:

A month or so ago, I bought a jug of cheap vinegar for
pickling. After I got it home I noticed a sticker on the
lable that ammended "Red Wine Vinegar" to "Red Wine
Vinegar Style"

The ingredient list: water, acetic acid, red wine, red
wine concntrate.

Obviously not made to get around the alcohol question,
but some lab-produced thing nonetheless. It did pickle
the vegetables, but I won't buy it again.

This junk has been around for a long time. You have to be
*VERY* suspicious of all food products and read the labels
very cautiously, and read the small print too. I take my
reading glasses with me to the store nowadays.

My husband is from the UK, which evidently has more consumer-
friendly labeling laws and enforces them. He keeps
making the mistake of BELIEVING labels in the USA, and I
keep pointing out that no, it's not that way. 'Whole
wheat bread' is a good example: this does NOT mean '100%
whole wheat' in the USA unless it *says* '100% whole
wheat'. Etc.

Pat
--

Nice to see you again Pat! That same stuff is usually
referred to as 'non-brewed condiment' in the UK. It isn't
allowed to be called vinegar and I think the word 'vinegar'
isn't even allowed to be anywhere on the label.

The Joneses <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

<<snipped>>

Quoted message said:

I know that vinegar is made from fermentation thru alcohol
phase of various things. Has anyone ever had
religious/moral reservations about using an alcohol product
that isn't alcohol anymore?

Do theses same people avoid any products made with vanilla
(or other) extract(s)? Some are alcohol based...if so then
their arguement is out the window.

in article [email hidden], Peete at
[email hidden] wrote on 29/6/04 9:37 PM:

Quoted message said:

The Joneses <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

<<snipped>>

Quoted message said:

I know that vinegar is made from fermentation thru
alcohol phase of various things. Has anyone ever had
religious/moral reservations about using an alcohol
product that isn't alcohol anymore?

Do theses same people avoid any products made with vanilla
(or other) extract(s)? Some are alcohol based...if so then
their arguement is out the window.

many do. Ellen
--