Road Cycling · Public discussion

The Carmichael Spin

B. Lafferty · 2004-06-05T00:46:23+00:00

From ProCycling: http://www.procycling.com/news_main.asp?newsId=5340 So is it the new bike or the aging body that caused the power/performance problem at 25-30 km? July is going to be very interesting.

Started by B. Lafferty · 5 June 2004 · Last activity 6 June 2004 · 26 posts · 1,087 views

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01 / Original postThe Carmichael SpinB. Lafferty · 5 Jun 2004 02 / This pagePosts 1–20Page 1 of 2 · chronological order 03 / Latest replyPost #26Ewoud Dronkert · 6 Jun 2004

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Original section: Road Cycling
Published: 5 June 2004
Last activity: 6 June 2004
Original author: B. Lafferty
Posts: 26
Discussion status: Public discussion
Total views: 1,087
Views / 30 days: 0
Topics: Bottom brackets Steel frames Time trials

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Original post
B. Lafferty
Archived post

5 June 2004, 00:46 UTC #1

From ProCycling:
procycling.comnews main.asp
So is it the new bike or the aging body that caused the
power/performance problem at 25-30 km? July is going to be
very interesting.

Report
Steve
Archived post

5 June 2004, 01:30 UTC #2

Quoted message said:
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader
does not understand

this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
--B_3169216548_9473784 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-
ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
What's the big deal blowhard??!!
After 20 miles it gets too uncomfortable........ Even YOU
must eventually get uncomfortable sticking your head up your
ass too long....
On 6/4/04 5:28 PM, in article
[email hidden], "B.
Lafferty said:
From ProCycling:
procycling.comnews main.asp
So is it the new bike or the aging body that caused the
power/performance problem at 25-30 km? July is going to be
very interesting.
--B_3169216548_9473784 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-
ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
<HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: The Carmichael Spin</TITLE> </HEAD>
<BODY> What'= s the big deal blowhard??!! 
After 20 miles it gets too uncomfortable........ Even
YOU must eventually get uncomfortable sticking your head up
your ass t= oo long.... On 6/4/04 5:28 PM, in
article [email hidden]=
link.net, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>
wrote: > From
ProCycling: > > <a href=3D"procyc-procyc-
ling.com/news_main.asp?newsId=3D5340">w=w=
ww.procycling.com/news_main.asp?newsId=3D5340</a> >
 > So is it the new bike or the aging body that
caused the power/performa= nce > problem at 25-30 km?
July is going to be very interesting. > 
Quoted message said:
 </BODY> </HTML>
--B_3169216548_9473784--

Report
Tritonrider
Archived post

5 June 2004, 02:00 UTC #3

Quoted message said:
From: "B. Lafferty" [email hidden]
Quoted message said:
So is it the new bike or the aging body that caused the
power/performance problem at 25-30 km? July is going to be
very interesting.
Since I ride several bikes regularly this makes a lot of
sense to me.
"Speaking on US broadcaster Outdoor Life Network's â€˜Road
to the Tourâ€™ show on Thursday night, Armstrong's coach
Chris Carmichael confirmed the switch in equipment. "Lance
is more comfortable on the time trial bike with a standard
bottom bracket width."
The bike that Armstrong has dropped had been specially
designed by bike sponsor Trek and featured a narrower bottom
bracket shell in an effort to reduce the overall frontal
area of rider and bike. " The bottom bracket width isn't
really that much different on my bikes but I can definitely
feel it in my knees sooner, rather than later. Bill C

Report
Carl Sundquist
Archived post

5 June 2004, 03:15 UTC #4

"TritonRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
From: "B. Lafferty" [email hidden]
Quoted message said:
So is it the new bike or the aging body that caused the
power/performance problem at 25-30 km? July is going to
be very interesting.
Since I ride several bikes regularly this makes a lot of
sense to me.
"Speaking on US broadcaster Outdoor Life Network's 'Road
to the Tour' show on Thursday night, Armstrong's coach
Chris Carmichael confirmed the switch

in
Quoted message said:
equipment. "Lance is more comfortable on the time trial
bike with a

standard
Quoted message said:
bottom bracket width."
The bike that Armstrong has dropped had been specially
designed by bike

sponsor
Quoted message said:
Trek and featured a narrower bottom bracket shell in an
effort to reduce

the
Quoted message said:
overall frontal area of rider and bike. " The bottom
bracket width isn't really that much different on my
bikes but

I
Quoted message said:
can definitely feel it in my knees sooner, rather than
later. Bill C
Good thing his bikes don't have Italian threading.
That is definitely a 'different strokes for different
folks' type of thing. I don't know if Obree invented or
just popularized the narrow BB, but the Project 96 bikes
had narrow BBs. Later on, as I was preparing for TTs, I
would ride the thing for up to two hours at a time. I
never felt any discomfort, whether on the narrow BB or
switching back and forth between it and my road bike with
a standard width BB.
I had proposed that USAC/GT build our road bikes with BBs
similar width to the pursuit bikes, but the idea never
got very far.

Report
Warren
Archived post

5 June 2004, 03:30 UTC #5

In article <[email hidden]>, TritonRider
Quoted message said:
"Speaking on US broadcaster Outdoor Life Network's â€˜Road
to the Tourâ€™ show on Thursday night, Armstrong's coach
Chris Carmichael confirmed the switch in equipment. "Lance
is more comfortable on the time trial bike with a standard
bottom bracket width."
The bike that Armstrong has dropped had been specially
designed by bike sponsor Trek and featured a narrower
bottom bracket shell in an effort to reduce the overall
frontal area of rider and bike. " The bottom bracket width
isn't really that much different on my bikes but I can
definitely feel it in my knees sooner, rather than later.
So why can't Lance simply move his cleats inward or use a
longer bottom bracket spindle?
-WG

Report
B. Lafferty
Archived post

5 June 2004, 10:46 UTC #6

"TritonRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
From: "B. Lafferty" [email hidden]
Quoted message said:
So is it the new bike or the aging body that caused the
power/performance problem at 25-30 km? July is going to
be very interesting.
Since I ride several bikes regularly this makes a lot of
sense to me.
"Speaking on US broadcaster Outdoor Life Network's 'Road
to the Tour' show on Thursday night, Armstrong's coach
Chris Carmichael confirmed the switch

in
Quoted message said:
equipment. "Lance is more comfortable on the time trial
bike with a

standard
Quoted message said:
bottom bracket width."
The bike that Armstrong has dropped had been specially
designed by bike

sponsor
Quoted message said:
Trek and featured a narrower bottom bracket shell in an
effort to reduce

the
Quoted message said:
overall frontal area of rider and bike. " The bottom
bracket width isn't really that much different on my
bikes but

I
Quoted message said:
can definitely feel it in my knees sooner, rather than
later. Bill C
We'll have the answer to the question late on the afternoon
of July 19th.

Report
Kyle Legate
Archived post

5 June 2004, 13:16 UTC #7

Quoted message said:
"TritonRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:

The bike that Armstrong has dropped had been specially
designed by bike sponsor Trek and featured a narrower
bottom bracket shell in an effort to reduce the overall
frontal area of rider and bike. "

Doesn't this violate the spirit of the UCI rules, which try
to ensure that every athlete competes using more or less the
same equipment? By designing a one-of-a-kind bike with a
narrower BB shell, Trek is creating equipment that gives
Lance an unfair technological advantage. Just another
example of an organization that does all it can to bend the
rules to its advantage (remember the Actovegin almost-
scandal?) by playing in the grey area. Of course all teams
do this, but it kind of destroys any moral hgh ground USPS
might try to claim for itself.

Report
Trg
Archived post

5 June 2004, 13:45 UTC #8

Kyle Legate said:
Quoted message said:
"TritonRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040604212446.07875.00000563@mb-
m06.aol.com...
Quoted message said:

The bike that Armstrong has dropped had been specially
designed by bike sponsor Trek and featured a narrower
bottom bracket shell in an effort to reduce the overall
frontal area of rider and bike. "

Doesn't this violate the spirit of the UCI rules, which
try to ensure that every athlete competes using more or
less the same equipment? By designing a one-of-a-kind bike
with a narrower BB shell, Trek is creating equipment that
gives Lance an unfair technological advantage. Just
another example of an organization that does all it can to
bend the rules to its advantage (remember the Actovegin
almost-scandal?) by playing in the grey area. Of course
all teams do this, but it kind of destroys any moral hgh
ground USPS might try to claim for itself.
The governing body (UCI) makes the rules and all the teams
play within them, like all sports. Where's the grey area or
moral high ground?

Report
Carl Sundquist
Archived post

5 June 2004, 14:06 UTC #9

"Kyle Legate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
"TritonRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040604212446.07875.00000563@mb-
m06.aol.com...
Quoted message said:

The bike that Armstrong has dropped had been specially
designed by bike sponsor Trek and featured a narrower
bottom bracket shell in an effort to reduce the overall
frontal area of rider and bike. "

Doesn't this violate the spirit of the UCI rules, which
try to ensure that every athlete competes using more or
less the same equipment? By designing

a
Quoted message said:
one-of-a-kind bike with a narrower BB shell, Trek is
creating equipment

that
Quoted message said:
gives Lance an unfair technological advantage.
As I said earlier, I don't know if Obree invented or merely
popularized narrow BBs more than 10 years ago, but the
concept has been laid out on the table for all to use. If
Obree can fabricate a bike out of junkyard parts, then why
can't a large corporation create essentially the same thing?
The intellectual value of (in this instance) the piece is
common now.
If the issue is production v. prototype then that is a
hugely grey area, whether from a manufacturing POV or a
'spirit of the rules' POV.
How these rules are interpreted can be quite delicate.
Another alternative would be to use the Japanese Keirin
Association approach where there is no questioning the
spirit of the rules whatsoever.

Report
John Everett
Archived post

5 June 2004, 16:03 UTC #10

On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 10:33:00 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>
Quoted message said:

We'll have the answer to the question late on the afternoon
of July 19th.
What can we expect to learn on a rest day in Nîmes? ;-)
jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net
home.earthlink.net~jeverett3

Report
Richard Adams
Archived post

5 June 2004, 16:03 UTC #11

Kyle Legate said:
Quoted message said:
"TritonRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040604212446.07875.00000563@mb-
m06.aol.com...
Quoted message said:
The bike that Armstrong has dropped had been specially
designed by bike sponsor Trek and featured a narrower
bottom bracket shell in an effort to reduce the overall
frontal area of rider and bike. "

Doesn't this violate the spirit of the UCI rules, which
try to ensure that every athlete competes using more or
less the same equipment? By designing a one-of-a-kind bike
with a narrower BB shell, Trek is creating equipment that
gives Lance an unfair technological advantage. Just
another example of an organization that does all it can to
bend the rules to its advantage (remember the Actovegin
almost-scandal?) by playing in the grey area. Of course
all teams do this, but it kind of destroys any moral hgh
ground USPS might try to claim for itself.
Some equipment is more equal than others. The thing I
like is when David Millar shows up at the Worlds with
some kind of carbon Franken-biken-stein (that thing was
UG-LEE) whereas whatever Lance rides eventually shows up
in your LBS.

Report
John Forrest To
Archived post

5 June 2004, 16:30 UTC #12

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 14:57:16 +0200, "Kyle Legate" <[email hidden]>
Quoted message said:
Doesn't this violate the spirit of the UCI rules, which try
to ensure that every athlete competes using more or less
the same equipment? By designing a one-of-a-kind bike with
a narrower BB shell, Trek is creating equipment that gives
Lance an unfair technological advantage. Just another
example of an organization that does all it can to bend the
rules to its advantage (remember the Actovegin almost-
scandal?) by playing in the grey area. Of course all teams
do this, but it kind of destroys any moral hgh ground USPS
might try to claim for itself.
What moral high ground? Armstrong and his team said they
don't break rules. And they don't. I expect and hope that
athletes I admire go up to the edge of the rules but
don't cross them. That's a good thing. That's a key
element of sport.
JT

Report
Dave H
Archived post

5 June 2004, 16:45 UTC #13

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
As I said earlier, I don't know if Obree invented or
merely popularized
Quoted message said:
How these rules are interpreted can be quite delicate.
Another alternative would be to use the Japanese Keirin
Association approach where there is no questioning the
spirit of the rules whatsoever.
There ya go, have everyone in the TDF, Use Ganwell Pro or
Nagasawa steel framed bikes exactly equipped, and race the
TDF, see who wins, be like an IROC race
Dave

Report
B. Lafferty
Archived post

5 June 2004, 17:10 UTC #14

"Dave H" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
As I said earlier, I don't know if Obree invented or
merely popularized
Quoted message said:
How these rules are interpreted can be quite delicate.
Another

alternative
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
would be to use the Japanese Keirin Association approach
where there is

no
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
questioning the spirit of the rules whatsoever.
There ya go, have everyone in the TDF, Use Ganwell Pro or
Nagasawa steel framed bikes exactly equipped, and race the
TDF, see who wins, be like an IROC race
Dave
Henri D. did exactly that in some pre-WWII years of the TdF.
Lets make them all ride Raleigh Pro bikes, circa 1980.

Report
B. Lafferty
Archived post

5 June 2004, 18:06 UTC #15

"John Everett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
B. Lafferty said:

We'll have the answer to the question late on the
afternoon of July 19th.
What can we expect to learn on a rest day in Nîmes? ;-)

Right you are. July 24th. Stage 19.

Report
Mark & Steven B
Archived post

5 June 2004, 18:19 UTC #16

John Forrest Tomlinson said:
Kyle Legate said:
Doesn't this violate the spirit of the UCI rules, which
try to ensure that every athlete competes using more or
less the same equipment? By designing a one-of-a-kind bike
with a narrower BB shell, Trek is creating equipment that
gives Lance an unfair technological advantage. Just
another example of an organization that does all it can to
bend the rules to its advantage (remember the Actovegin
almost-scandal?) by playing in the grey area. Of course
all teams do this, but it kind of destroys any moral hgh
ground USPS might try to claim for itself.
What moral high ground? Armstrong and his team said they
don't break rules. And they don't. I expect and hope that
athletes I admire go up to the edge of the rules but
don't cross them. That's a good thing. That's a key
element of sport.
JT
Hey, JT--the EDGE of the rules? Can you help me
with my taxes?
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS dentaltwins.comdentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY

Report
Carl Sundquist
Archived post

5 June 2004, 18:19 UTC #17

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
As I said earlier, I don't know if Obree invented or
merely

popularized
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:
How these rules are interpreted can be quite delicate.
Another

alternative
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
would be to use the Japanese Keirin Association
approach where there

is
Quoted message said:
no
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
questioning the spirit of the rules whatsoever.
There ya go, have everyone in the TDF, Use Ganwell Pro
or Nagasawa steel framed bikes exactly equipped, and
race the TDF, see who wins, be like

an
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
IROC race
Dave
Henri D. did exactly that in some pre-WWII years of the
TdF. Lets make

them
Quoted message said:
all ride Raleigh Pro bikes, circa 1980.
Didn't some of those bikes have bottom bracket problems
where the 'CC' was cut out?

Report
B. Lafferty
Archived post

5 June 2004, 19:02 UTC #18

"Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
John Forrest Tomlinson said:
Kyle Legate said:
Doesn't this violate the spirit of the UCI rules, which
try to ensure

that
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
every athlete competes using more or less the same
equipment? By

designing a
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
one-of-a-kind bike with a narrower BB shell, Trek is
creating equipment

that
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
gives Lance an unfair technological advantage. Just
another example of

an
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
organization that does all it can to bend the rules to
its advantage (remember the Actovegin almost-scandal?)
by playing in the grey area. Of course all teams do
this, but it kind of destroys any moral hgh ground

USPS
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
might try to claim for itself.
What moral high ground? Armstrong and his team said they
don't break rules. And they don't. I expect and hope
that athletes I admire go up to the edge of the rules
but don't cross them. That's a good thing. That's a key
element of sport.
JT
Hey, JT--the EDGE of the rules? Can you help me with
my taxes?
Steve
My tax law professor explained to us on the first day of
class that we should view our tax return as an offer only,
which the government could choose to accept or reject.

Report
B. Lafferty
Archived post

5 June 2004, 19:15 UTC #19

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
> As I said earlier, I don't know if Obree invented or
> merely

popularized
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:

> How these rules are interpreted can be quite
> delicate. Another

alternative
Quoted message said:
> would be to use the Japanese Keirin Association
> approach where there

is
Quoted message said:
no
Quoted message said:
> questioning the spirit of the rules whatsoever.
There ya go, have everyone in the TDF, Use Ganwell Pro
or Nagasawa

steel
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
framed bikes exactly equipped, and race the TDF, see
who wins, be like

an
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
IROC race
Dave
Henri D. did exactly that in some pre-WWII years of the
TdF. Lets make

them
Quoted message said:
all ride Raleigh Pro bikes, circa 1980.
Didn't some of those bikes have bottom bracket problems
where the 'CC' was cut out?
Don't know. Some of the bikes provided to our club by our
sponsor Windsor Bicycles (Mexican made in the same factory
as Benotto) in the early 80s had bb failures due to
overheating of the shell when built. Quality was much more
hit or miss back then, even with "name" brands.

Report
Stewart Fleming
Archived post

5 June 2004, 22:31 UTC #20

B. Lafferty said:
"John Everett" <[email hidden]>
wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
B. Lafferty said:
We'll have the answer to the question late on the
afternoon of July 19th.
What can we expect to learn on a rest day in Nîmes? ;-)
Right you are. July 24th. Stage 19.
What was the question again?

Report

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