Cleat spacing

Cat Dailey said:

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart
one's feet should be when clipped in (spacing between
feet). I am female and use Speedplay pedals. I have played
around with moving my feet further apart and closer, but I
really have no idea how far apart they should be. I am
having a little bit of knee pain in both knees to the
inside and at the top of the kneecap (kind of at the base
of the VMO). Any suggestions would be helpful. (I already
have good saddle height and I think fore/aft cleat
placement is good).

Thanks, Cat

A good place to have your feet is straight below your knees.
Personally I pronate so I have special insoles to get my
knees right above my feet. Are you sure saddle height is
good? Pain in the front of the keecap usually means your
saddle is a little bit low. Do you have free float on your
cleats? You might want to experiment with the angle your
foot is clipped in.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey said:

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart
one's feet should be when clipped in (spacing between
feet). I am female and use Speedplay pedals. I have
played around with moving my feet further apart and
closer, but I really have no idea how far apart they
should be. I am having a little bit of knee pain in both
knees to the inside and at the top of the kneecap (kind
of at the base of the VMO). Any suggestions would be
helpful. (I already have good saddle height and I think
fore/aft cleat placement is good).

Thanks, Cat

A good place to have your feet is straight below your
knees. Personally I pronate so I have special insoles to
get my knees right above my feet. Are you sure saddle
height is good? Pain in the front of the keecap

usually

Quoted message said:

means your saddle is a little bit low. Do you have free
float on your cleats? You might want to experiment with

the

Quoted message said:

angle your foot is clipped in.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

I don't get that "straight below your knees" ;< My knees are
slightly drawn in (towards the top tube) when I pedal, so
how does that affect cleat placement? And my saddle height
is spot on. Also, speedplays are free float, so no worries
about angle of cleat placement.

Cat

Cat Dailey said:

Quoted message said:

I don't get that "straight below your knees" ;< My knees
are slightly drawn in (towards the top tube) when I pedal,
so how does that affect cleat placement? And my saddle
height is spot on. Also, speedplays are free float, so no
worries about angle of cleat placement.

Cat

How do you know your saddle height is spot on? Will
raising it 5 mm make your hips rock? If not then it may
still be too low.

My knees were too far drawn in towards the toptube,
especially the right knee and especially when hammering. It
was the same when running, a pronounced pronation. I put
insoles in my shoes to correct for this and my knees came
out from the toptube and started pushing straight down on my
feet. I didn't have any knee discomfort and may never have
had any. However it seems to me my average Wattage has gone
up a little bit. I'm definitely putting out a more balanced
Left-Right wattage today. I use a Polar S720 Power Meter.

Having your knees draw towards the toptube may or may not
hurt your knees. Lots and lots of cyclists do that. I
checked on the pro peloton on TV when I was going through
these changes and many have their knees very tight to the
toptube. Maybe they think it's aero or maybe they are just
built that way??? Anyways it may be worth your time to
consider your position in this respect.

Another reason for knee pain of course is pushing big gears
at a low cadence.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey said:

Quoted message said:

I don't get that "straight below your knees" ;< My knees
are slightly drawn in (towards the top tube) when I
pedal, so how does that affect cleat placement? And my
saddle height is spot on. Also, speedplays are free
float, so no worries about angle of cleat placement.

Cat

How do you know your saddle height is spot on? Will
raising it 5 mm make your hips rock? If not then it may
still be too low.

I had my greater trochanter height from the floor in socks
measured by a competent physical therapist. Then I measured
the distance from the top of the pedal in a horizontal
position with the crank in it's lowest position aligned with
the seattube, to the top of the saddle where I sit. The
distance is exactly 90.5 cm, which corresponds exactly to my
trochanter height.

Quoted message said:

My knees were too far drawn in towards the toptube,
especially the right knee and especially when hammering.
It was the same when running, a pronounced pronation. I
put insoles in my shoes to correct for this and my knees
came out from the toptube and started pushing straight
down on my feet. I didn't have any knee discomfort and may
never have had any.

However

Quoted message said:

it seems to me my average Wattage has gone up a little
bit. I'm definitely putting out a more balanced Left-Right
wattage today. I use a Polar S720 Power Meter.

Having your knees draw towards the toptube may or may not
hurt your knees. Lots and lots of cyclists do that. I
checked on the pro peloton on TV when

I

Quoted message said:

was going through these changes and many have their knees
very tight to

the

Quoted message said:

toptube. Maybe they think it's aero or maybe they are just
built that

way???

Quoted message said:

Anyways it may be worth your time to consider your
position in this

respect.

Don't forget that I am female. We have a much greater angle
between our hip socket and knees than men do. That's why I
made sure to point out that I was a girl. (In other words,
our knees don't line up directly under our hips. We have a
larger angle (Q angle?) than men.)

Quoted message said:

Another reason for knee pain of course is pushing big
gears at a low cadence.

--

No... I am a spinner for sure.

Cat

Cat Dailey said:

Don't forget that I am female. We have a much greater angle
between our hip socket and knees than men do. That's why I
made sure to point out that I was a girl. (In other words,
our knees don't line up directly under our hips. We have a
larger angle (Q angle?) than men.)

Quoted message said:

Another reason for knee pain of course is pushing big
gears at a low cadence.

--

No... I am a spinner for sure.

Cat

It might be worth it to search google groups for 'knee pain'
in this newsgroup since there have been several 'success
stories' of knee pain ameliorated.

-B

Cat Dailey said:

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey said:

>
I don't get that "straight below your knees" ;< My knees
are slightly drawn in (towards the top tube) when I
pedal, so how does that affect cleat placement? And my
saddle height is spot on. Also, speedplays are free
float, so no worries about angle of cleat placement.

Cat

How do you know your saddle height is spot on? Will
raising it 5 mm make your hips rock? If not then it may
still be too low.

I had my greater trochanter height from the floor in socks
measured by a competent physical therapist. Then I
measured the distance from the top of the pedal in a
horizontal position with the crank in it's lowest position
aligned with the seattube, to the top of the saddle where
I sit. The distance is exactly 90.5 cm, which corresponds
exactly to my trochanter height.

Sounds like you have everything pretty much covered. However
I couldn't quite follow your measuring technique. One thing
that I did notice though was that the measurements were done
wearing socks. You might need to add the added height of
your shoes and cleats.

One very good way of knowing that you are in the ballpark.
If possible put your bike on a trainer. Put a friend behind
you that keeps an eye on your hipbones. Raise your saddle
until your hipbones start moving up and down. Lower you
saddle until they stop. This should only be maybe 3-5 mm.
From here you are in the ballpark and further adjustments
should be made no more than 3mm at a time.

If you don't have a trainer or a friend available. Get out
on the road and put a bunch of small change in the two side
pockets on your jersey. Raise your saddle until the change
start jingling. Lower until quiet.

I think you're getting the picture now. What I'm really
trying to say is that there are many very technical ways to
measure your saddle height and most of them puts you into
the ballpark if you belong to the norm. Either bodybuild or
pedaling technique. If for instance you pedal with your toes
pointed extremely straight down or have very thick soles and
cleats, then the method of measuring you have used will
definitely put your saddle too low.

Of course all of your problems may also be due to upping
your mileage too much too fast.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey said:

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey wrote:
>>
> I don't get that "straight below your knees" ;< My
> knees are slightly drawn in (towards the top tube)
> when I pedal, so how does that affect cleat placement?
> And my saddle height is spot on. Also, speedplays are
> free float, so no worries about angle of cleat
> placement.
>
> Cat

How do you know your saddle height is spot on? Will
raising it 5 mm make your hips rock? If not then it may
still be too low.

I had my greater trochanter height from the floor in
socks measured by a competent physical therapist. Then I
measured the distance from the top of the pedal in a
horizontal position with the crank in it's lowest
position aligned with the seattube, to the top of the
saddle where I sit. The distance is exactly 90.5 cm,
which corresponds exactly to my trochanter height.

Sounds like you have everything pretty much covered.
However I couldn't quite follow your measuring technique.
One thing that I did notice though was that the
measurements were done wearing socks. You might need to
add the added height of your shoes and cleats.

One very good way of knowing that you are in the ballpark.
If possible put your bike on a trainer. Put a friend
behind you that keeps an eye on your hipbones. Raise your
saddle until your hipbones start moving up and down. Lower
you saddle until they stop. This should only be maybe 3-5
mm. From here you are in the ballpark and further
adjustments should be made

no

Quoted message said:

more than 3mm at a time.

If you don't have a trainer or a friend available. Get out
on the road and put a bunch of small change in the two
side pockets on your jersey. Raise your saddle until the
change start jingling. Lower until quiet.

I think you're getting the picture now. What I'm really
trying to say is that there are many very technical ways
to measure your saddle height and most of them puts you
into the ballpark if you belong to the norm. Either
bodybuild or pedaling technique. If for instance you pedal
with your toes pointed extremely straight down or have
very thick soles and cleats, then the method of measuring
you have used will definitely put your saddle too low.

Of course all of your problems may also be due to upping
your mileage too much too fast.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

Thanks Perre for taking the time to reply. However, if you
do greater trochanter height, it is much simpler and way
more foolproof than the old "rocking hips" routine. This
measurement is done in stocking feet.

None of this answers my original question of how far apart
my feet should be ;<

Cat

"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey said:

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...
> Cat Dailey wrote:
>>>
>> I don't get that "straight below your knees" ;< My
>> knees are slightly drawn in (towards the top tube)
>> when I pedal, so how does that affect cleat
>> placement? And my saddle height is spot on. Also,
>> speedplays are free float, so no worries about angle
>> of cleat placement.
>>
>> Cat
>
>
> How do you know your saddle height is spot on? Will
> raising it 5 mm make your hips rock? If not then it
> may still be too low.

I had my greater trochanter height from the floor in
socks measured by a competent physical therapist. Then
I measured the distance from the top of the pedal in a
horizontal position with the crank in it's lowest
position aligned with the seattube, to the top of the
saddle where I sit. The distance is exactly 90.5 cm,
which corresponds exactly to my trochanter height.

Sounds like you have everything pretty much covered.
However I couldn't quite follow your measuring
technique. One thing that

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

did notice though was that the measurements were done
wearing socks. You might need to add the added height of
your shoes and cleats.

One very good way of knowing that you are in the
ballpark. If possible put your bike on a trainer. Put a
friend behind you that keeps an eye on your hipbones.
Raise your saddle until your hipbones start moving up
and down. Lower you saddle until they stop. This should
only be maybe 3-5 mm. From here you are in the ballpark
and further adjustments should be made

no

Quoted message said:

more than 3mm at a time.

If you don't have a trainer or a friend available. Get
out on the road

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

put a bunch of small change in the two side pockets on
your jersey.

Raise

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your saddle until the change start jingling. Lower until
quiet.

I think you're getting the picture now. What I'm really
trying to say is that there are many very technical ways
to measure your saddle height

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

most of them puts you into the ballpark if you belong to
the norm.

Either

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bodybuild or pedaling technique. If for instance you
pedal with your

toes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pointed extremely straight down or have very thick soles
and cleats,

then

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the method of measuring you have used will definitely
put your saddle

too

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

low.

Of course all of your problems may also be due to upping
your mileage

too

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

much too fast.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

Thanks Perre for taking the time to reply. However, if you
do greater trochanter height, it is much simpler and way
more foolproof than the old "rocking hips" routine. This
measurement is done in stocking feet.

None of this answers my original question of how far apart
my feet should

be

Quoted message said:

;<

Cat

I cannot agree that your method of measuring seat height is
better than the rocking hips method. I started out doing a
technical way of seat height adjustment and found that my
knees hurt. I adjusted my seat higher and a little further
back than the technical method and my knee problems are
gone. As far as how far your feet are apart, I don't
understand. I put my cleats in a position that was
comfortable on my feet (middle of the balls worked for me).
I suggest making very small adjustments.

Once more your technical method most likely doesn't take in
enough consideration of you angle of your feet, therefore it
is just a ballpark height, IMHO.

I personally feel your seat is too low and I know that
is not what you want to hear, but I am going to tell
you anyway.

Curt

Cat Dailey said:

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart
one's feet should be when clipped in (spacing between
feet). I am female and use Speedplay pedals. I have played
around with moving my feet further apart and closer, but I
really have no idea how far apart they should be.

Cat, the term you're referring to is "tread" or more
commonly "Q factor":

sheldonbrown.comcranks.htmlOpen ↗

What's an ideal Q factor? I have no idea, but I've heard
that less is better. Not very helpful, is it?

Quoted message said:

I am having a little bit of knee pain in both knees to the
inside and at the top of the kneecap (kind of at the base
of the VMO). Any suggestions would be helpful.

How about the rotation of the cleat? Most people's feet turn
out a little naturally, so the cleat needs to accommodate
this rotation. If you sit on a table and let your feet
dangle, this should show you your natural rotation. My right
foot rotates outwards, so a cleat that doesn't take this
into account makes the inside of my knee sore.

--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.comOpen ↗

"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart
one's feet should be when clipped in (spacing between
feet). I am female and use

How far apart (laterally) are your feet when you walk?
That's a good starting point. Hip sizes vary widely,
especially in women. People with very thin hips generally
walk with their feet very close together and would probably
benefit from a minimal cleat spacing (as long as your ankles
don't bump the crank arms).

Ken said:

"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:acGdnYSmq-pfOlzdRVn-
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart
one's feet should be when clipped in (spacing between
feet). I am female and use

How far apart (laterally) are your feet when you walk?
That's a good starting point. Hip sizes vary widely,
especially in women. People with very thin hips generally
walk with their feet very close together and would probably
benefit from a minimal cleat spacing (as long as your
ankles don't bump the crank arms).

May I suggest the OP get a friend with a camera and tripod
to take pics of her spacing from the front, side and
especially the rear (and maybe from above,
i.e. the cyclists POV, and another further forward aligning
and framing the feet and knee positions relative to the
crank, in the exposure.

Cat may be able to spot things related to alignment that
will allow some slight adaptive experimentation.

I would think the aim would be to take into account the
normal seated 'hang' of the legs, and use of minimal
orthotics or adjustments to allow the most trim, plum and
level "neutral" position. It's all about wear on the joints
and the alignment of the spine.

I've even been thinking about making a couple visits to a
good chiro., see if there's anything that I can work on
aligning better with exercises, etc.

-B

"Terry Morse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey said:

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart
one's feet should

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

when clipped in (spacing between feet). I am female and
use Speedplay pedals. I have played around with moving
my feet further apart and

closer,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but I really have no idea how far apart they should be.

Cat, the term you're referring to is "tread" or more
commonly "Q factor":

sheldonbrown.comcranks.htmlOpen ↗

What's an ideal Q factor? I have no idea, but I've heard
that less is better. Not very helpful, is it?

Quoted message said:

I am having a little bit of knee pain in both knees to
the inside and at the top of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

kneecap (kind of at the base of the VMO). Any
suggestions would be

helpful.

Quoted message said:

How about the rotation of the cleat? Most people's feet
turn out a little naturally, so the cleat needs to
accommodate this rotation. If you sit on a table and let
your feet dangle, this should show you your natural
rotation. My right foot rotates outwards, so a cleat that
doesn't take this into account makes the inside of my
knee sore.

--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.comOpen ↗

Thanks Terry! Thank goodness someone finally talked about
the question I asked (my seat height is fine
thankyouverymcuh ;>😉. I don't have to worry about rotation,
cause Speedplays allow me to freefloat in both directions. I
just need to know if there is a reasoned way to determine
how far apart my feet should be.

Thanks, Cat

"Ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:acGdnYSmq-pfOlzdRVn-
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart
one's feet should be when clipped in (spacing between
feet). I am female and use

How far apart (laterally) are your feet when you walk?
That's a good starting point. Hip sizes vary widely,
especially in women. People with very thin hips generally
walk with their feet very close together and

would

Quoted message said:

probably benefit from a minimal cleat spacing (as long as
your ankles

don't

Quoted message said:

bump the crank arms).

Hmmm...that's a tough one to answer. If I think back to the
last time I walked in sand or left wet footprints, my prints
were rather close together. But what if I swing my feet in
as I step down? I don't know if this translates to pedaling
action or not, which is why I asked. Surely someone knows
the answer???

HOW DO YOU ALL SET UP YOUR CLEATS FOR LATERAL SPACING????
<shouting over>

Cat

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 16:39:50 +0000, Ken <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:acGdnYSmq-pfOlzdRVn-
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart
one's feet

should

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be when clipped in (spacing between feet). I am female
and use

How far apart (laterally) are your feet when you walk?
That's a good starting point. Hip sizes vary widely,
especially in women. People with very thin hips generally
walk with their feet very close together and

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

probably benefit from a minimal cleat spacing (as long as
your ankles

don't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bump the crank arms).

May I suggest the OP get a friend with a camera and tripod
to take pics of her spacing from the front, side and
especially the rear (and maybe from

above,

Quoted message said:

i.e. the cyclists POV, and another further forward
aligning and framing

the feet

Quoted message said:

and knee positions relative to the crank, in the exposure.

Cat may be able to spot things related to alignment that
will allow some

slight

Quoted message said:

adaptive experimentation.

I would think the aim would be to take into account the
normal seated 'hang' of the legs, and use of minimal
orthotics or adjustments to allow

the

Quoted message said:

most trim, plum and level "neutral" position. It's all
about wear on the

joints and the

Quoted message said:

alignment of the spine.

I've even been thinking about making a couple visits to a
good chiro., see

if there's

Quoted message said:

anything that I can work on aligning better with
exercises, etc.

-B

That's not a bad suggestion (pics, I mean), but I don't know
how to interpret the information.

Cat

Cat Dailey said:

"Ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:acGdnYSmq-pfOlzdRVn-
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart
one's feet should be when clipped in (spacing between
feet). I am female and use

How far apart (laterally) are your feet when you walk?
That's a good starting point. Hip sizes vary widely,
especially in women. People with very thin hips generally
walk with their feet very close together and would
probably benefit from a minimal cleat spacing (as long as
your ankles don't bump the crank arms).

Hmmm...that's a tough one to answer. If I think back to
the last time I walked in sand or left wet footprints, my
prints were rather close together. But what if I swing my
feet in as I step down? I don't know if this translates to
pedaling action or not, which is why I asked. Surely
someone knows the answer???

HOW DO YOU ALL SET UP YOUR CLEATS FOR LATERAL SPACING????
<shouting
over>

Cat

Thank God you finally asked so we can understand you. You
know if you go back to my very first response, you'll see
that is exactly the question I answered.

SO THAT YOUR KNEES AND FEET ARE ALIGNED AS VERTICAL TO EACH
OTHER AS POSSIBLE. Besides I still think it's your saddle.

--
Perre
"Why do some people not listen until they get the answer they've been
waiting for"

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey said:

"Ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:acGdnYSmq-pfOlzdRVn-
[email hidden]:
> Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart
> one's feet should be when clipped in (spacing between
> feet). I am female and use

How far apart (laterally) are your feet when you walk?
That's a good starting point. Hip sizes vary widely,
especially in women. People with very thin hips
generally walk with their feet very close together and
would probably benefit from a minimal cleat spacing (as
long as your ankles don't bump the crank arms).

Hmmm...that's a tough one to answer. If I think back to
the last time I walked in sand or left wet footprints,
my prints were rather close together. But what if I
swing my feet in as I step down? I don't know if this
translates to pedaling action or not, which is why I
asked. Surely someone knows the answer???

HOW DO YOU ALL SET UP YOUR CLEATS FOR LATERAL
SPACING???? <shouting
over>

Cat

Thank God you finally asked so we can understand you. You
know if you go back to my very first response, you'll see
that is exactly the question I answered.

SO THAT YOUR KNEES AND FEET ARE ALIGNED AS VERTICAL TO
EACH OTHER AS POSSIBLE. Besides I still think it's
your saddle.

--
Perre "Why do some people not listen until they get the
answer they've been waiting for"

Oh, fer cryin' out loud and the love of pete
(smiling)...that's the most wishy washy load of whooey I've
ever heard. I can move my knees in or out relative to the
toptube, which changes whether or not my knees are aligned
as vertical as possible. That is a meaningless measurement.
No offense meant, really....

Cat who is not not listening until I get the answer I want
because I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER!!!!

Cat Dailey said:

Cat who is not not listening until I get the answer I want
because I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER!!!!

So how will have any idea what the correct answer
is???!!!!????? Why don't you just tell us what answer you
want and get done with it....

Look, what I have done is simply move my cleats around.
Carry an allen wrench and KEEP TRYING NEW POSITIONS!!!
Eventually I found a place that made the knee pain go away.
Basically I listened to what my body was telling me, not
what some newsgroup had to say about an unseen unknown
situation.

"Dan Daniel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey said:

Cat who is not not listening until I get the answer I
want because I DON'T

KNOW

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

THE ANSWER!!!!

So how will have any idea what the correct answer
is???!!!!????? Why don't you just tell us what answer you
want and get done with it....

Look, what I have done is simply move my cleats around.
Carry an allen wrench and KEEP TRYING NEW POSITIONS!!!
Eventually I found a place that made the knee pain go
away. Basically I listened to what my body was telling me,
not what some newsgroup had to say about an unseen unknown
situation.

Oh, boy. You need to turn on your humor meter. Just moving
my cleats around is an inefficient and potentially damaging
way of going about this. I asked if anyone had a "REASONED"
approach or formula for determining CORRECT cleat spacing.
Why is that so hard to understand? If I wanted to merely
goof around by trial and error, I could certainly do that.
HOWEVER, there are some formulas for determining correct
saddle height, cleat placement fore/aft, etc., which while
not perfect, are a good starting point. I've never come
across any similar information regarding cleat spacing, and
wondered if anyone here had.

On a similar note, I've always wondered with the new Look
pedals that allow you to move the platform in/out and also
change the angle, how do you know
(1) whether or not you need these two features and (2) how
do you figure out how much "correction" you need?

Surely there are biomechanical/physiological measurements
(NOT trial and error) that one might rely upon?

And I hope my reply did not come across as too strongly
worded for you. I really mean no offense, but would like
some solid info.

Cat

Cat Dailey said:

"Dan Daniel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey said:

Cat who is not not listening until I get the answer I
want because I DON'T

KNOW

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

THE ANSWER!!!!

So how will have any idea what the correct answer
is???!!!!????? Why don't you just tell us what answer you
want and get done with it....

Look, what I have done is simply move my cleats around.
Carry an allen wrench and KEEP TRYING NEW POSITIONS!!!
Eventually I found a place that made the knee pain go
away. Basically I listened to what my body was telling
me, not what some newsgroup had to say about an unseen
unknown situation.

Oh, boy. You need to turn on your humor meter.

Likewise, I'm sure! 🙂

Quoted message said:

Just moving my cleats around is an inefficient and
potentially damaging way of going about this. I asked if
anyone had a "REASONED" approach or formula for
determining CORRECT cleat spacing. Why is that so hard to
understand? If I wanted to merely goof around by trial and
error, I could certainly do that. HOWEVER, there are some
formulas for determining correct saddle height, cleat
placement fore/aft, etc., which while not perfect, are a
good starting point. I've never come across any similar
information regarding cleat spacing, and wondered if
anyone here had.

I was looking for this kind of thing months ago. Looking
looking looking. I never found it. There are the general
rules on knee pain, which seems to come down to two things-
saddle height and move the cleat back. Beyond that, I could
find nothing substantial.

I think that there is a reason for this- the factors are too
variable. Even in the answers here, you can see that.

You may think I was being snide, for reasons I can
understand, but I was being realistic based on my
experience. I did not ruin my knees with experiments. When
a position was better, my knees told me within a few miles.
When a position was worse, my knees told me within a few
miles. For me, it was a slow hunt, and parts of it are
still ongoing as I deal with different bikes and setup and
use issues.

One thing that has made a big difference for me is moving my
seat forward. This goes against the basic setup that is
recommended, where having the seat back gives better power.
But going forward helped eliminate the pain at the
top/inside of my knee cap. If you think about the pressure
on the upper kneecap in relation to the hip's position fore
and aft, this makes sense to me. But this is another story,
another 'try this- it worked for me' thing that is leaving
you very frustrated, I can see.

Quoted message said:

On a similar note, I've always wondered with the new Look
pedals that allow you to move the platform in/out and also
change the angle, how do you know
(1) whether or not you need these two features and (2) how
do you figure out how much "correction" you need?

Uh, when it doesn't hurt you've found the right spot? 🙂
Oops, you don't like answers like that.....

Look, I have been very worried about long term damage.
Worried that a position that felt ok was actually chewing up
my knee from the inside and that I would never recover from
the damage. But it hasn't turned out this way. Positions
that have felt better have not come back to haunt me.

Quoted message said:

Surely there are biomechanical/physiological measurements
(NOT trial and error) that one might rely upon?

You might ask in rec.bicycles.racing or rec.bicycles.tech
Maybe people in one of those groups will be better informed.
Or at least have more sophisticated knowledge of sports
physiology information and resources on the web or
elsewhere.

Quoted message said:

And I hope my reply did not come across as too strongly
worded for you. I really mean no offense, but would like
some solid info.

So would I, but I never found any. The closest I came was
looking into knee problems, and the focus was on runners.
Maybe there is a hidden mother lode of cleat position info
and studies out there, but no one here would ever let me in
on the secret 🙂

I would suggest r.b.racing or some other forum for racers to
find out if such information and studies exist.