Roundabout Woes

On 4/6/04 10:45 am, in article [email hidden],

Caher said:

Hi all, I’ve recently moved from the world of off-road (in
my case on path) to a road bike, which is a revelation for
the speed I can get around town and to work. However I’ve
now come into conflict with the motorist. This morning
whilst on my way to work I was in a dual lane road and on
my approach to a roundabout I stayed in the outside lane
whilst turning to the right – or the second exit.

What do you mean by outside? LH or RH lane? If you are going
right you should be in the RH lane. Left, LH lane. Straight
on, pick and mix.

Quoted message said:

A motorist came around suddenly from the oncoming
direction and tried to hoot his way into the first exit I
was cycling past. He game me a mouthful of abuse.

Was he coming from your right, ie already on the roundabout?

Quoted message said:

I managed to catch him up for further clarification. Have
I forgotten the Highway Code for cyclists, was he being
obnoxious or was I actually cycling correctly. Many
thanks Caher.

Potentially bad road positioning but without further
clarification one cannot be sure. Your road position may
have led him to believe that you were going left, not right
so he was moderately justified in being miffed.

Moral:

1. road positioning should indicate what you are doing.
2. Clear and unambiguous signals should indicate what you
are doing.

1 and 2 should send the same messages.

..d

Caher said:

Hi all, I’ve recently moved from the world of off-road (in
my case on path) to a road bike, which is a revelation for
the speed I can get around town and to work. However I’ve
now come into conflict with the motorist. This morning
whilst on my way to work I was in a dual lane road and on
my approach to a roundabout I stayed in the outside lane
whilst turning to the right – or the second exit. A
motorist came around suddenly from the oncoming direction
and tried to hoot his way into the first exit I was
cycling past. He game me a mouthful of abuse. I managed to
catch him up for further clarification. Have I forgotten
the Highway Code for cyclists, was he being obnoxious or
was I actually cycling correctly. Many thanks Caher.

I can't see that you were doing anything wrong (provided you
didn't have to give way to him when you were entering the
roundabout).

Seems to me he was annoyed at having to slow down for
a cyclist.
--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "I've just learned about
his illness. Let's hope it's nothing trivial." - Irvin S.
Cobb www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk

Caher said:

Hi all, I’ve recently moved from the world of off-road (in
my case on path) to a road bike, which is a revelation for
the speed I can get around town and to work. However I’ve
now come into conflict with the motorist. This morning
whilst on my way to work I was in a dual lane road and on
my approach to a roundabout I stayed in the outside lane
whilst turning to the right – or the second exit. A
motorist came around suddenly from the oncoming direction
and tried to hoot his way into the first exit I was
cycling past.

Let me get this straight - there are three roads entering
this roundabout at 6, 10 and 2 o'lock on a clock face
(approximately), you went in at six o'clock and wanted to
leave at 2 o'clock, and they came in at 2 o'clock and tried
to leave at 10 o'clock?

The laning is somewhat immaterial - you were in the correct
lane to turn right (unless there were bizarre local road
markings stating otherwise). However:

If you were on the roundabout before he entered, and he
simply caught you up; case closed - he was being an
impatient twit.

If you and he entered at the same time and he caught up with
you, then ditto.

If he entered first and you failed to give way to traffic
already on the roundabout, thus causing him to brake (having
miscalculated the speed he was coming round?) then I think
you may have been a little careless, and he would be
justified in using his horn to warn you of his presence
(although not, of course, as a rebuke).

Between the latter two cases, of course, there is a grey
area dividing the point where you did/didn't give way to
traffic already on the roundabout.

R.

Caher said:

Hi all, I=92ve recently moved from the world of off-road
(in my case on=

Quoted message said:

path) to a road bike, which is a revelation for the speed I
can get=20
around town and to work. However I=92ve now come into
conflict with the=

Quoted message said:

motorist. This morning whilst on my way to work I was in
a dual lane road and on my approach to a roundabout I
stayed in the outside lane
=20

Let's be clear here - do you mean the left- or right-
hand lane? Which lane would you have used for that
manouevre in a car?

Quoted message said:

whilst turning to the right =96 or the second exit.

How many exits, at what angles? You're saying that the
second exit - the one you wanted - was more than 180deg
around the roundabout?

Quoted message said:

A motorist came around suddenly from the oncoming
direction

What - the wrong way around the roundabout?!

Quoted message said:

and tried to hoot his way into the first exit I was
cycling past.

Were you signalling right from joining the roundabout until
the first exit? You should have been.

Quoted message said:

He game me a mouthful of abuse. I managed to catch him up
for further clarification. Have I forgotten the Highway
Code for cyclists, was he being obnoxious or was I
actually cycling correctly. Many thanks Caher.

Hard to tell without knowing the exact situation.

For a typical dual-lane entrance to a roundabout where I
want an exit right of straight ahead, where there are no
marking arrows, I would attempt to enter the roundabout
either in the right-hand lane, or more probably towards the
right of the left-hand lane.

I would signal right from before entering the roundabout
until the exit before mine to make it clear I was continuing
round. If the roundabout has sufficient room, I would
probably position myself to allow motorists taking earlier
exits to overtake me on the left and allow those taking my
exit or later exits to overtake on the right.

If that's not safe (fast or narrow roundabouts) I would
probably ride in the middle of the left lane and signal
right as described above.

Be prominent and confident, and make it obvious what you're
doing. Most motorists will respect that and give you room
and time even if they don't like it. You'll never eliminate
idiots, though...

Get a copy of Cyclecraft and the HC.

--=20 Mark.

Richard said:

The laning is somewhat immaterial - you were in the
correct lane to turn right (unless there were bizarre
local road markings stating otherwise).

Clarification: I assumed that "outside" meant "right-hand"
as applied to a two-lane road, but reading Mssr Martin's nigh-
simultaneous reply, I realise it could also mean "left-hand"
:-) when applied to a roundabout.

If you're turning right at a roundabout, in the absence of
bizarre local road markings stating otherwise [1], you
should be in the right-hand lane, as David said.

R.

[1] Unless they're one of those stupid ****ing killer cycle
lanes around the periphery of a roundabout with a give-
way to cross every entrance and exit. Avoid these like
the veritable plague. Stick to vehicle lanes.

Richard said:

[1] Unless they're one of those stupid ****ing killer
cycle lanes around the periphery of a roundabout with
a give-way to cross every entrance and exit. Avoid
these like the veritable plague. Stick to vehicle
lanes.

I'm so in form today I'm replying to my own posts
twice, dammit.

Stick to MOTOR vehicle lanes.

Caher said:

Hi all, I=92ve recently moved from the world of off-road
(in my case on path) to a road bike, which is a revelation
for the speed I can get around town and to work. However
I=92ve now come into conflict with the motorist. This
morning whilst on my way to work I was in a dual lane road
and on my approach to a roundabout I stayed in the outside
lane whilst turning to the right =96 or the second exit.

This is fine - currently rules 62 & 163
www.highwaycode.gov.uk. You should have been signalling to
the right to show that you were not going to turn off at
the 1st exit.

You can also take the same route as you would when in a car
- you don't have to keep to the left.

Quoted message said:

A motorist came around suddenly from the oncoming
direction and tried to hoot his way into the first exit I
was cycling past. He game me a mouthful of abuse. I
managed to catch him up for further clarification.

I wouldn't have gone back for more?!

Quoted message said:

Have I forgotten the Highway Code for cyclists, was he
being obnoxious or was I actually cycling correctly.

If you don't have it already, you may like to get
'Cyclecraft'

lesberries.co.ukccraft.htmOpen ↗

which gives more advice on roundabouts.

Kit

I was already on the roundabout. He came from the south side I had already got on from the east. I was signalling to come off at the south. He wanted to get off at the west. I was travelling past the west on the way to the south.
He argued that I should have made my way into the busy inside then try to get back out onto the outside to turn off. This would be stupid. It’s far safer to stay on the outside all the way around signalling as I go rather than weaving in and out. If I was driving I do not try to overtake someone already on the roundabout.

Caher said:

I was already on the roundabout. He came from the south
side I had already got on from the east. I was
signalling to come off at the south. He wanted to get
off at the west. I was travelling past the west on the
way to the south.

You come on from the east, want to get off at the south, and
travel past the west? Either you're mixing up your wests and
easts, or you're trying to use the gravitational slingshot
approach to build up speed...

Caher said:

I was already on the roundabout. He came from the south
side I had already got on from the east. I was
signalling to come off at the south. He wanted to get
off at the west.

You're not in Britain, are you?
--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "I've just learned about
his illness. Let's hope it's nothing trivial." - Irvin S.
Cobb www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk

"Caher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was already on the roundabout. He came from the south
side I had already got on from the east. I was signalling
to come off at the south. He wanted to get off at the
west. I was travelling past the west on the way to the
south. He argued that I should have made my way into the
busy inside then try to get back out onto the outside to
turn off. This would be stupid. It’s far safer to stay on
the outside all the way around

......

Going all the way round a roundabout on the outside is just
begging to be made into roadkill!

"Caher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It’s far safer to stay on the outside all the way around
signalling as I go rather than weaving in and out.

Not necessarily so. Counterintuitive to many people,
but hiding on the left/outside of the roundabout puts
you in danger.

(obviously I'm taking your 'weaving in and out' to mean
'using the correct lane, that is the same one as you would
in a car' here)

cheers, clive

"Richard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You come on from the east, want to get off at the south,
and travel past the west? Either you're mixing up your
wests and easts, or you're trying to use the gravitational
slingshot approach to build up speed...

This got me thinking as well! At first it sounded like he
may have been going the wrong way round the roundabout!

David Martin said:

What do you mean by outside? LH or RH lane? If you are
going right you should be in the RH lane. Left, LH lane.
Straight on, pick and mix.

No...cyclists and drivers of large vehicles are allowed to
use the outside all the way around, according to the HC.
Personally I think it's more risky.

Caher:

Quoted message said:

I was travelling past the west on the way to the south.

You were travelling round the roundabout in an anticlockwise
direction?

That's *definitely* wrong.

d.

davek said:

You were travelling round the roundabout in an
anticlockwise direction?

That's *definitely* wrong.

Not here!

home.san.rr.comrndabout.jpgOpen ↗

I use it quite a lot. Pick an exit and pray.

On 4/6/04 1:13 pm, in article [email hidden], "Adrian

Boliston said:

"Richard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You come on from the east, want to get off at the south,
and travel past the west? Either you're mixing up your
wests and easts, or you're trying to use the
gravitational slingshot approach to build up speed...

This got me thinking as well! At first it sounded like he
may have been going the wrong way round the roundabout!

Having been on the wrong side of the road 'because thats
where the cycle lane is'?

..d

"Zog The Undeniable" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:40c07c6f.0@entanet...

Quoted message said:

davek said:

You were travelling round the roundabout in an
anticlockwise direction?

That's *definitely* wrong.

Not here!

home.san.rr.comrndabout.jpgOpen ↗

I use it quite a lot. Pick an exit and pray.

Where *is* that? Just so I know to avoid it...

Steve.

Caher said:

I was already on the roundabout. He came from the south
side I had already got on from the east. I was signalling
to come off at the south. He wanted to get off at the
west. I was travelling past the west on the way to the
south. He argued that I should have made my way into the
busy inside then try to get back out onto the outside to
turn off.

It sounds a lot more productive than most such exchanges. On
8/10 roundabouts I would do as he suggested.

Quoted message said:

This would be stupid.

I think the theory goes that drivers expect you to behave in
a predictable way (i.e. like them). If you cycle somewhere a
car wouldn't drive, they may fail to look and see you. If
you behave in a way that they don't expect, they will often
fail to take this into account. Ergo it's generally safer to
take whichever line a car normally would, even if this
involves crossing a few extra lanes of traffic.

Quoted message said:

It's far safer to stay on the outside all the way around
signalling as I go rather than weaving in and out.

In general in the UK (if you are in the UK?) the highway
code specifically says that you may do this if you wish to.
So the driver shouldn't have taken you to task over it -
even though his advice was not all bad (could he have been a
cyclist in disguise?).

I would not be as dogmatic as some of the other posters in
saying that you should never take the left-hand lane. Before
now, I've ended up in the inside lane of the roundabout with
two lanes of 40mph traffic on my left. But I would recommend
being very vigilant and assertive: block the whole lane,
whichever one you choose.

Kit