red lights

wobbles said:

Hi Everyone,

I cycle with friends, sometimes with one, sometimes with
more. They all have a tendency to ride through red lights
which I feel uncomfortable doing. How do you manage this
problem, or do some of you ride through red lights?

Obviously some lights are safer than others, depending on
where they are and the traffic conditions. Not stopping
also leads a bad example and probably helps give people
like Clarkson more ammunition.

I'm mainly a mountainbiker and find the streets of London
quite intimidating at the best of times.

Thanks W

I stop at the lights, but then anyone I cycle with (which
aren't that many) stop too for the same reasons.

Maybe stopping at them till they query what on earth you're
doing (and then enlightening them as to the light it puts
cyclists in to car drivers) might help, on the other hand
they may scoff and ignore.

Personally I'd not go through the red lights regardless
of what others might do. There's always the chance
they'll get it wrong, and that leads to pain and expense,
possibly worse.

--

Velvet

wobbles said:

I cycle with friends, sometimes with one, sometimes with
more. They all have a tendency to ride through red lights
which I feel uncomfortable doing. How do you manage this
problem, or do some of you ride through red lights?

I don't. None of the folk I do cycle with play that game
either, but those I see doing it and subsequently catch up
with I ask them to stop because it gives /me/ a bad
reputation.

Quoted message said:

Not stopping also leads a bad example and probably helps
give people like Clarkson more ammunition.

exactly, but not so much "people like Clarkson" as people
like Mr and Mrs John Average and their delightfully average
2.2 children. Those are people you need on your side,
because they'll be the ones driving around basing their
opinion of cyclists on the cyclists they see. If the meejah
have a rant it only strikes a chord where people see it
happening for real. Any complaints about other road use
abuses tend to get ignored if the person moaning is seen not
to practice the good behaviour they preach. It is in the
safety interests of cyclists to be beyond reproach in their
road use, both directly (not ending up embedded in the front
of an HGV) and indirectly (through being accorded due space,
care and courtesy earned by respect).

Quoted message said:

I'm mainly a mountainbiker and find the streets of London
quite intimidating at the best of times.

If you haven't done so, read Cyclecraft (ISBN:
0117020516), it's very good for getting safer on real
roads with real traffic.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

wobbles said:

Hi Everyone,

I cycle with friends, sometimes with one, sometimes with
more. They all have a tendency to ride through red lights
which I feel uncomfortable doing. How do you manage this
problem, or do some of you ride through red lights?

You are traffic. Traffic lights pertain to you (and your
friends) as much as the cars, lorries and buses. Don't jump
the lights - you (and/or your friends) could easily end up
dead - which is a bad thing.

--
Chris

Quoted message said:

I cycle with friends, sometimes with one, sometimes with
more. They all have a tendency to ride through red lights
which I feel uncomfortable doing. How do you manage this
problem, or do some of you ride through red lights?

There is no excuse for ignoring red lights. We cyclists are
not excused adhering to the law. Do not ride through red
lights - it's illegal and it gets we cyclists tarred with
the brush of being "Lycra louts".

Cheers, helen s

--This is an invalid email address to avoid spam-- to get
correct one remove fame & fortune
h*$el*$$e*nd**$o$ts**i*$*$m*m$o*n*s@$*a$o*l.c**$om$

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is switched off--

wobbles said:

Hi Everyone,

I cycle with friends, sometimes with one, sometimes with
more. They all have a tendency to ride through red lights
which I feel uncomfortable doing. How do you manage this
problem, or do some of you ride through red lights?

Get friends who value your life.
--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "He is not only dull
himself, he is the cause of dullness in others." -Samuel
Johnson www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk

in message <[email hidden]>, wobbles <.>

('') said:

Hi Everyone,

I cycle with friends, sometimes with one, sometimes with
more. They all have a tendency to ride through red lights
which I feel uncomfortable doing. How do you manage this
problem, or do some of you ride through red lights?

Riding through red lights is *bloody* stupid. You suffer a
good chance of getting t-boned by a fast moving car and you
aggravate the ill-feeling of drivers towards cyclists. Don't
do it. If your friends do it, that's their funeral.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke)
jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

Iraq war: it's time for regime change... ... go now,
Tony, while you can still go with dignity.

Thanks for your replies. I don't know whether it's just
a London thing but so many of the cyclists I see run
red lights. It sometimes makes me wonder whether I'm in
a minority.

Anyway ditching my friends isn't possible, so I'll see what
they have to say about
it. I know that one of them also finds it uncomfortable, so
I think we all need to have a chat.

Thanks W

wobbles said:

I cycle with friends, sometimes with one, sometimes with
more. They all have a tendency to ride through red lights
which I feel uncomfortable doing. How do you manage this
problem, or do some of you ride through red lights?

Stop where and when you want to, they will soon get
the message and stop and wait for/with you, if they
/are/ friends.

Quoted message said:

Obviously some lights are safer than others, depending on
where they are and the traffic conditions.

Exactly. Some are as safe as doing anything on-road can be.
Eg. Going through a pedestrian crossing when it's utterly
clear that there is absolutely no-one around to cross over.
People can say that you should obey the law but they can't
play the safety card. You have to negotiate all sorts of
other junctions without the dumb guidance of traffic lights,
just using your brain! Wow! Shouldn't be allowed!

Quoted message said:

Not stopping also leads a bad example and probably helps
give people like Clarkson more ammunition.

Nearly all motorists continually break the speed limit.
Motorists break one law, cyclists break another. So we're
even on that score. I really don't feel the need to "set an
example" through artificial means. I don't mow people down
by going too fast or pollute the environment or congest the
roads. I'm already setting a good example just by being out
on the road on a bike.

Most people outside London haven't got a clue what it's like
to cycle in a place where there is so, so many traffic
lights (which such long red waits now) so read their
"advice" with that in mind.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Nearly all motorists continually break the speed limit.

"continually" for "nearly all" just isn't fair. It isn't
even /possible/ a lot of the time in urban traffic.

Quoted message said:

Motorists break one law, cyclists break another. So we're
even on that score.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Added to which there's the
problem that there are a lot more motorists than cyclists,
and the motorists are a lot more dangerous to the cyclists
than vice versa, so whatever your sense of injustice tells
you it makes /very/ good sense not to reinforce prejudices
when such actions will reduce the consideration and care
with which *all* cyclists are treated on the roads.

Quoted message said:

I'm already setting a good example just by being out on
the road on a bike.

I know that, you know that, but do /they/ know that? In many
cases, no, so it's not much use when push comes to shove and
reality intrudes on thought experiments..

Quoted message said:

Most people outside London haven't got a clue what it's
like to cycle in a place where there is so, so many
traffic lights (which such long red waits now) so read
their "advice" with that in mind.

But one helluva lot of people /drive/ there and wait at
them. I won't condone the various amber-gambler, speeding,
bad parking etc. but the brutal facts of the matter is that
typical driving style /is/ the way the game is played and
pointing out how green you are won't impress the people who
decide you cross reds blatantly well after they change so
you must be a [censored] and run you off the road. Or anyone
else on a machine like yours, as it stands to "reason"
they'll think the same way.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Pete Biggs
<[email hidden]> breathed:

Quoted message said:

Most people outside London haven't got a clue what it's
like to cycle in a place where there is so, so many traffic
lights (which such long red waits now) so read their
"advice" with that in mind.

I used to cycle to work in Glasgow, from Govanhill down
Pollokshaws Road to Shawlands. There are traffic lights
every few yards through Shawlands Cross, deliberately
breaking up the road into lots of short chunks, and changing
very fast, as that was found to help the busses pull out and
also kept all the traffic moving.

--
- Pyromancer.
- inkubus-sukkubus.co.ukinkubus-sukkubus.co.ukOpen ↗ <-- Pagan Gothic Rock!
- littlematchgirl.co.uklittlematchgirl.co.ukOpen ↗ <-- Electronic Metal!
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Revival.

Pete Biggs said:

Most people outside London haven't got a clue what it's
like to cycle in a place where there is so, so many
traffic lights (which such long red waits now) so read
their "advice" with that in mind.

Only 15 years of cycling through London so I suppose I'm not
very experienced. Still don't jump red lights. Never did
(deliberately), don't intend to start now.

The time loss is minimal, and you can always treat them as
interval training if you want.

It is not necessary to jump red lights in the same way
that it is not necessary to break the speed limit in the
car. If you are that worried about being late, get fitter
or get up earlier.

..d

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

Nearly all motorists continually break the speed limit.

"continually" for "nearly all" just isn't fair. It isn't
even /possible/ a lot of the time in urban traffic.

Most break the speed limit every few minutes, if not every
few seconds. That's close enough to "continual" for the sake
of this argument.

It is easily possible for cars to accelerate up to 35+ mph
between stops in busy inner and central London, and they do.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Motorists break one law, cyclists break another. So we're
even on that score.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't think cyclists have to be more "right" than
motorists. I just don't accept that cyclists should have to
"set an example". You may like to (that's great) but I
object to cyclists effectively being told they must by other
cyclists. It's a matter for the judgement and descretion of
both the individual and the authorities.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm already setting a good example just by being out on
the road on a bike.

I know that, you know that, but do /they/ know that?

Just the the presence of cyclists on the roads encourages
others to cycle. That's good enough, I reckon.

~PB

Pyromancer said:

Quoted message said:

Most people outside London haven't got a clue what it's
like to cycle in a place where there is so, so many
traffic lights (which such long red waits now) so read
their "advice" with that in mind.

I used to cycle to work in Glasgow, from Govanhill down
Pollokshaws Road to Shawlands. There are traffic lights
every few yards through Shawlands Cross, deliberately
breaking up the road into lots of short chunks, and
changing very fast, as that was found to help the busses
pull out and also kept all the traffic moving.

Yes I did just say "most people", not all. However, having
frequent traffic lights in a relatively small city is one
thing, having loads in an area the size of London is
another, at least when cycling more than a very few miles.

~PB

David Martin said:

The time loss is minimal, and you can always treat them as
interval training if you want.

I disagree. Waiting time on an 8 mile journey, for instance,
adds up considerably. I will time it sometime.

Quoted message said:

It is not necessary to jump red lights in the same way
that it is not necessary to break the speed limit in the
car. If you are that worried about being late, get fitter
or get up earlier.

That's right, that's fine, it's not necessary. I also don't
think it's necessary to stop at every single red light (or
at least wait there the whole time it's red). They also
don't think it's necessary in some other countries where
it's permitted to go through in certain circumstances.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

That's right, that's fine, it's not necessary. I also
don't think it's necessary to stop at every single red
light (or at least wait there the whole time it's red).
They also don't think it's necessary in some other
countries where it's permitted to go through in certain
circumstances.

They think it necessary to put people to death for
committing murder in some other countries in certain
circumstances. They probably pay less for their fish too.

Colin

Pete Biggs said:

I don't think cyclists have to be more "right" than
motorists. I just don't accept that cyclists should have
to "set an example". You may like to (that's great) but I
object to cyclists effectively being told they must by
other cyclists.

I object to people increasing my chances of getting killed
by inconsiderate behaviour, which is entirely possible on
the roads. Since I like to look after #1 as my primary
priority that overrides any consideration of being nice and
"setting examples".

Quoted message said:

It's a matter for the judgement and descretion of both
the individual and the authorities.

My judgment as an individual is that poor behaviour by
other cyclists affects *me* when I'm cycling. I *greatly*
resent that other people being thoughtless rubs off on how
I am treated.

Quoted message said:

Just the the presence of cyclists on the roads encourages
others to cycle.

Only if they're seen in a positive light. And the glow of
red ones they've just ridden through does *not* pass muster,
because the perception is it's stupid and dangerous and
people don't want to think of themselves as queuing up to do
stupid and dangerous things and be associated with stupid
and dangerous people.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Colin Blackburn said:

Quoted message said:

They also don't think it's necessary in some other
countries where it's permitted to go through in certain
circumstances.

They think it necessary to put people to death for
committing murder in some other countries in certain
circumstances. They probably pay less for their fish too.

Apparently it works well in north America where you're
allowed to turn right (like turning left here) if there's
nothing coming.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Apparently it works well in north America where you're
allowed to turn right (like turning left here) if there's
nothing coming.

Only in some states. I drove from MD to NY once -- no can do
in NY -- too difficult for peds in NYC to tell whether a car
would turn the corner or not, I suppose.

Pete Biggs said:

David Martin said:

The time loss is minimal, and you can always treat them
as interval training if you want.

I disagree. Waiting time on an 8 mile journey, for
instance, adds up considerably. I will time it sometime.

On the grand scheme of things it takes very little time.
FWIW I used to commute 13 miles each way through London.
Jumping red lights was not something I did and I still made
it to wherever I was going. If you do time it, do so over a
few weeks to get a reasonable distribution of times.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is not necessary to jump red lights in the same way
that it is not necessary to break the speed limit in the
car. If you are that worried about being late, get fitter
or get up earlier.

That's right, that's fine, it's not necessary. I also
don't think it's necessary to stop at every single red
light (or at least wait there the whole time it's red).
They also don't think it's necessary in some other
countries where it's permitted to go through in certain
circumstances.

Some people don't think it's necessary to give way to
cyclists because they don't pay road tax. Some don't feel
it's necessary to park where they are not obstructing other
road users. Roads operate successfully due to an implicit
social contract. Why do you think you can break that when
you would be most put out if others did what they wanted?

..d