to marathon or not to marathon ...

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So we've got the news that Bob Kennedy is going to make
his debut

marathon,

Quoted message said:

at the age of 33 (3 years older than me) after several
years of competing

at

Quoted message said:

a very high level, and setting records. Of course he has
been fit enough

to

Quoted message said:

run a marathon for years -- but he chose not to. This
seems to be the

normal

Quoted message said:

course of action for elites -- but why is this the case ?

The situation with Bob Kennedy is interesting. Have you
heard news that Kennedy will not be running the 5000 or
10000 in Athens (assuming he qualifies of course)? If he
does, will he train specifically for the Olympics or for the
NY Marathon? I suppose Deana Kastor's situation is similar.
She has already qualified for the 'thon in Athens and
committed to NY but I don't think it is likely she will run
both. ISTR someone earlier posting that she was more likely
to do the 10000 in Athens. My point is that--at least for
the elites--the training for one event or the other is not
mutually exclusive.

Matthew

Hi Donovan:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So we've got the news that Bob Kennedy is going to make
his debut

marathon,

Quoted message said:

at the age of 33 (3 years older than me) after several
years of competing

at

Quoted message said:

a very high level, and setting records. Of course he has
been fit enough

to

Quoted message said:

run a marathon for years -- but he chose not to. This
seems to be the

normal

Quoted message said:

course of action for elites -- but why is this the case ?

One reason may be that a marathon puts a kink in your year
-- in my case, I found that I needed to space them out 4 -
12 months apart to run my best. After a crazed period when I
ran 10 per year, I eventually ran just 1 or 2 per year, but
ran lots of shorter races. After an all out marathon, I was
usually sore for about 5 days, and took 3 days off. I didn't
feel fairly normal for 8 - 10 days. I usually took it easy
for 3 weeks after a big effort.

[Sidebar on hydration: One reason they were hard on me was
water loss -- I've lost 10 lbs running a marathon on a warm
day. This is very hard on the ol' muscles and can trigger
cramping and hyperthermia. If I had it to do again, I'd have
squeeze bottles every mile or two. I always fought the
notion of stopping for a total of 2-3 minutes to get the
liquid I needed.

In ultras (what I do now) I will drink upwards of 40 oz per
hour when it's warm. Since everyone is carrying water and
refilling at aid stations, it's easy. Not so when racing a
road marathon, where a minute is a big deal.]

I'd imagine an elite runner would need to block 4-5 weeks
out for taper and recovery before getting back into the
swing, and then a few weeks to regain prior form. I used to
start a new training cycle of base then hills then speed.

Quoted message said:

Related to this, I have my own personal dilemma. Of course
I'm nowhere

near as

Quoted message said:

fast as Kennedy, but I have been training hard at middle
distances for a

few

Quoted message said:

years now. My times have continued to drop -- I have gone
from just under

70%

Quoted message said:

WAVA to 74.9% over the course of a training cycle
beginning in December

03.

That is really good. You're on a roll.

Quoted message said:

I meet the qualifying criteria for the NY marathon, and
have entered to

keep my

Quoted message said:

options open, but I'm still in two minds as to whether I
really want to do marathon training or if I'd be better
off staying focused on middle

distance

Quoted message said:

training for a while. My gut is telling me that I'm going
to be more competitive in 1 mile to 10k than I will be in
15k and up this year.

My wava numbers (a hair over 80%) were straight across from
5k through marathon. There's not much difference in the
training. In fact, I think you can run a good 50 mile race
on marathon training. I ran 440's, 880's, 3 x 1 mile, 5k and
10k races on my hard days, and threw in an easy to moderate
longer run of 17 - 21 miles on Sunday. From what I remember
of your training, all you need to do is make your long run a
few miles longer, and take something off the next day.

I'd say go for it. It's an adventure, in pacing at the
beginning, and guts at the end.

Concerning the taper, I liked Andy's pre-Chicago taper
(scale it down for pace/mpw, obviously) (maybe he'll give
you a reprint :-)

--Dan

Umm... sorry... what is your dilemma? What to train for?
Doesn't that depend on what your goals are and what
motivates you? Does being "competitive in 1 mile to 10k"
matter to you? Does running a marathon matter to you?
Sorry... I just don't quite follow what you're asking or
what your dilemma is from what was posted.

In article <[email hidden]>, Donovan

Rebbechi said:

So we've got the news that Bob Kennedy is going to make
his debut marathon, at the age of 33 (3 years older than
me) after several years of competing at a very high level,
and setting records. Of course he has been fit enough to
run a marathon for years -- but he chose not to. This
seems to be the normal course of action for elites -- but
why is this the case ?

Related to this, I have my own personal dilemma. Of course
I'm nowhere near as fast as Kennedy, but I have been
training hard at middle distances for a few years now. My
times have continued to drop -- I have gone from just
under 70% WAVA to 74.9% over the course of a training
cycle beginning in December
03. I meet the qualifying criteria for the NY marathon,
and have entered to keep my options open, but I'm
still in two minds as to whether I really want to do
marathon training or if I'd be better off staying
focused on middle distance training for a while. My
gut is telling me that I'm going to be more
competitive in 1 mile to 10k than I will be in 15k and
up this year.

Cheers,

--
Nova Scotia, Canada

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>..

Quoted message said:

So we've got the news that Bob Kennedy is going to make
his debut marathon, at the age of 33 (3 years older than
me) after several years of competing at a very high level,
and setting records. Of course he has been fit enough to
run a marathon for years -- but he chose not to. This
seems to be the normal course of action for elites -- but
why is this the case ?

It used to be the case, but isn´t there a trend towards
runners making the marathon their main event quite early in
their career and ever younger runners doing extremely well
on the distance?

OTOH Bob Kennedy probably had, until now, reason to believe
he still had something more to deliver on the shorter
distances and only began to consider the move to marathon
when his age might be him out of serious competition on the
track. Whether he can follow in the footsteps of Carlos
Lopes remains to be seen.

Quoted message said:

(...) but I'm still in two minds as to whether I really
want to do marathon training or if I'd be better off
staying focused on middle distance training for a while.
My gut is telling me that I'm going to be more competitive
in 1 mile to 10k than I will be in 15k and up this year.

I´m tempted to scare you off the marathon - it would quite
probably put me one place higher in the rec.running ranking
in 2004 if you didn´t run:-)

But I suppose the question is not whether to run or not to
run, so there´s no chance of that and I can freely give
you my opinion: your training has brought you splendid
progress so far, but my hunch says you will plateau fairly
soon, the returns of specific training will diminish after
a certain time.

If this is so, marathon specific training or training with
an emphasis on that area could not only help you put my
forthcoming marathon PB to shame, it could also be an
essential step towards reaching your middle distance goals.
Marathon training would, of course, make you slower for a
period of time, but it would build you the ladder to reach
the next level on which to train for the short stuff.

At least I think Lydiard said something like that and he
still hasn´t been proven wrong...

OTOH it could be the optimal marathon for you in this sense
would not be the NYCM but a spring marathon?

Anders (who´d never join a club whose coach was as
clueless as he is)

If you've been running for several years, I'd say no problem
starting marathon training. You have some idea of your
strengths and limitations. Its the people who try in less
than a year of running I fear for. They risk high chance of
injury or burnout.

In article said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So we've got the news that Bob Kennedy is going to make
his debut

marathon,

Quoted message said:

at the age of 33 (3 years older than me) after several
years of competing

at

Quoted message said:

a very high level, and setting records. Of course he has
been fit enough

to

Quoted message said:

run a marathon for years -- but he chose not to. This
seems to be the

normal

Quoted message said:

course of action for elites -- but why is this the case ?

The situation with Bob Kennedy is interesting. Have you
heard news that Kennedy will not be running the 5000 or
10000 in Athens (assuming he qualifies of course)? If he
does, will he train specifically for the Olympics or for
the NY Marathon? I suppose Deana Kastor's situation is
similar. She has already qualified for the 'thon in Athens
and committed to NY but I don't think it is likely she
will run both. ISTR someone earlier posting that she was
more likely to do the 10000 in Athens. My point is that--
at least for the elites--the training for one event or the
other is not mutually exclusive.

Thanks. You make a good point here -- and in fact, given
that the mile is currently my strongest event, marathon
training, with its greater emphasis on tempo runs is
something I would emphasise anyway. I have also contemplated
the idea of simply not doing specific marathon training and
running it on my middle distance training. After all, 60-
70mpw plus weekly long runs of 16 miles with maybe a couple
of slightly longer ones for good luck hardly makes me one of
the less well prepared runners in the race.

But I'm curious as to why the elites wait so long before
jumping into a marathon. I suppose it's possible that some
of them actually do jump into marathons very early on,
before they become famous and these do not get much media
attention. After they turn pro, they are probably under
pressure from coaches and public to "train properly".

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

In article said:

One reason may be that a marathon puts a kink in your year
-- in my case, I found that I needed to space them out 4 -
12 months apart to run my best.

[]

Quoted message said:

I'd imagine an elite runner would need to block 4-5
weeks out for taper and recovery before getting back
into the swing, and then a few weeks to regain prior
form. I used to start a new training cycle of base then
hills then speed.

I see. This sounds like a plausible explanation --
perhaps the pros can't afford to mess up their schedule
by doing this.

Quoted message said:

My wava numbers (a hair over 80%) were straight across
from 5k through marathon. There's not much difference in
the training. In fact, I think

Thanks for the insights. I agree with you about training --
and I think a little more emphasis on tempos would do me
good now anyway. Last cycle I emphasised anaerobic stuff at
the expense of tempos (even compared to the program, in
which tempos didn't play a huge role anyway), which produced
a fantastic mile time. I figure I can knock 20 seconds or
more off my 5k time just by matching it with some quality
endurance work (LT training). There is a hybrid
marathon/middle distance program in Daniels, I'll probably
run with that.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

"rick++" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

If you've been running for several years, I'd say no
problem starting marathon training. You have some idea of
your strengths and limitations. Its the people who try in
less than a year of running I fear for. They risk high
chance of injury or burnout.

Hi rick - could you tell me who you are replying to? I
missed the original post and without a quote there's
no context.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see putting other people
down constantly."

In article said:

"rick++" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

If you've been running for several years, I'd say no
problem starting marathon training. You have some idea of
your strengths and limitations. Its the people who try in
less than a year of running I fear for. They risk high
chance of injury or burnout.

Hi rick - could you tell me who you are replying to? I
missed the original post and without a quote there's no
context.

cheers,

He was replying to me, did you killfile me or something ?
here's the text of the post:

So we've got the news that Bob Kennedy is going to make his
debut marathon, at the age of 33 (3 years older than me)
after several years of competing at a very high level, and
setting records. Of course he has been fit enough to run a
marathon for years -- but he chose not to. This seems to be
the normal course of action for elites -- but why is this
the case ?

Related to this, I have my own personal dilemma. Of course
I'm nowhere near as fast as Kennedy, but I have been
training hard at middle distances for a few years now. My
times have continued to drop -- I have gone from just under
70% WAVA to 74.9% over the course of a training cycle
beginning in December 03. I meet the qualifying criteria for
the NY marathon, and have entered to keep my options open,
but I'm still in two minds as to whether I really want to do
marathon training or if I'd be better off staying focused on
middle distance training for a while. My gut is telling me
that I'm going to be more competitive in 1 mile to 10k than
I will be in 15k and up this year.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

SwStudio said:

"rick++" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

If you've been running for several years, I'd say no
problem starting marathon training. You have some idea
of your strengths and

limitations.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Its the people who try in less than a year of running I
fear for. They risk high chance of injury or burnout.

Hi rick - could you tell me who you are replying to? I
missed the original post and without a quote there's no
context.

cheers,

He was replying to me, did you killfile me or something ?
here's the text of the post:

hahaha -no, that won't happen until you start beating me
regularly. ;-) My news server is a little on the lame side
at times. Your original post will no doubt appear in a month
or so out of the twilight zone.

Quoted message said:

So we've got the news that Bob Kennedy is going to make
his debut

marathon,

Quoted message said:

at the age of 33 (3 years older than me) after several
years of competing

at

Quoted message said:

a very high level, and setting records. Of course he has
been fit enough

to

Quoted message said:

run a marathon for years -- but he chose not to. This
seems to be the

normal

Quoted message said:

course of action for elites -- but why is this the case ?

I think it's generally accepted that you lose speed first as
you age, and when you are at the elite level you can't
really mess around with different races that much and still
expect to be at the top of your game. Obviously there are
exceptions (Zatopek, etc..) which leads one to believe that
if you are a supreme talent even among elites you can do
what you want, almost.

Quoted message said:

Related to this, I have my own personal dilemma. Of course
I'm nowhere

near as

Quoted message said:

fast as Kennedy, but I have been training hard at middle
distances for a

few

Quoted message said:

years now. My times have continued to drop -- I have gone
from just under

70%

Quoted message said:

WAVA to 74.9% over the course of a training cycle
beginning in December

03. I

Quoted message said:

meet the qualifying criteria for the NY marathon, and have
entered to keep

my

Quoted message said:

options open, but I'm still in two minds as to whether I
really want to do marathon training or if I'd be better
off staying focused on middle

distance

Quoted message said:

training for a while. My gut is telling me that I'm going
to be more competitive in 1 mile to 10k than I will be in
15k and up this year.

Your mile time shows good promise for a faster 5k, as you
know. I'd stick with that, train furiously for some sizzling
5k performances in the late summer-fall, then move into
marathon training for the '05 season, building a big base
over the first half of the winter.

Whatever your choice, best of luck!

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see putting other people
down constantly."

""El Paisano"" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So we've got the news that Bob Kennedy is going to make
his debut

marathon,

Quoted message said:

at the age of 33 (3 years older than me) after several
years of

competing

Quoted message said:

at

Quoted message said:

a very high level, and setting records. Of course he has
been fit enough

to

Quoted message said:

run a marathon for years -- but he chose not to. This
seems to be the

normal

Quoted message said:

course of action for elites -- but why is this the
case ?

The situation with Bob Kennedy is interesting. Have you
heard news that Kennedy will not be running the 5000 or
10000 in Athens (assuming he qualifies of course)? If he
does, will he train specifically for the Olympics or for
the NY Marathon? I suppose Deana Kastor's situation is
similar. She has already qualified for the 'thon in Athens
and committed

to

Quoted message said:

NY but I don't think it is likely she will run both. ISTR
someone earlier posting that she was more likely to do the
10000 in Athens. My point is that--at least for the elites--
the training for one event or the other is not mutually
exclusive.

Matthew

There is no reason you cannot run both. There are about 80
days or so between the two. A person training for the 10
would be doing a lot of volume anyway. Heck a lot of old
school runners (Salazar, Shorter) ran very well in the
marathon off 10K training.

I am placing money that Deena will run the marathon. She was
committed enough to attend a special marathon camp in San
Diego a week or so ago.