Wheel Dishing

If it's closer to the left (non-drive) you tighten the
right, not the left. I would try tightening the right a
quarter turn, see what happens, and if necessary loosen the
left a quarter, and take it from there.

Really when you tighten it is better to tighten each one a
quarter more than you intend and then wind back. According
to Jobst Brant this prevents spoke twist. What you are
trying to do is fairly easy. When you are finished stress
relieve the spokes. The web will have Jobst Brandt stuff
about that. It prevents fatigue spoke fractures. (IT
REALLY DOES)

Quoted message said:

I have a truing stand

in which case you can use this to dish the wheel in the
absence of a proper dishing tool [it's also dead easy to
make one....I made a wooden one and it's brilliant]. Using
one side of the truing stand only, bring your truing bolt up
against the rim of the wheel and then flip the wheel over
and see how near/far the other rim is from the bolt and
readjust accordingly.

You only want to be adjusting by a quarter turn only. I'd
suggest tightening the non-drive by a quarter....really
depends on how tight the drive side spokes are though. Don't
be afraid to have quite a big differential between the
tension of the drive and non-drive side - this is quite
normal on a rear dished wheel.

You say the wheels are expensive, are they standard[but
expensive] 36 or 32 hole, 3-crossed wheels? Or are they the
new 'post-modern ironic' '5 spokes to a wheel' wheels? ?<g>
Personally, I'd feel more confident with more spokes than
less, but that's because I've been taught from the JB school
of wheel building, where the emphasis is on 'tradition'
rather than marketing :-)

Either way....it's very easily done.

garryb

Quoted message said:

and spoke key, but up until now have only used it for
keeping wheels straight.

The spokes on the wheel appear to be tensioned quite tight,
and the drive side appears slightly more tensioned than the
other, is this normal?. Not knowing a great deal about
dishing etc. my first thought would be tighten the spokes
1/4 turn on the non-drive side and loosen the spokes 1/4
turn on the drive side.

Can I do this pretty easy myself, or taking into
consideration these are expensive wheels, should I let the
experts carry out the work?

Comments please!

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

If it's closer to the left (non-drive) you tighten the
right, not the left. I would try tightening the right a
quarter turn, see what happens, and if necessary loosen
the left a quarter, and take it from there.

Really when you tighten it is better to tighten each one a
quarter more than you intend and then wind back. According
to Jobst Brant this prevents spoke twist. What you are
trying to do is fairly easy. When you are finished stress
relieve the spokes. The web will have Jobst Brandt stuff
about that. It prevents fatigue spoke fractures. (IT
REALLY DOES)

Bugger, that's what I meant to say!

What about the fact that the spokes seem very taut already?

--
Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not
volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during
transmission

MSA said:

I noticed last year but have put it off till now to get
something done (plonker, yes I know!). My racing wheels
are not dished correctly...when sitting in the frame the
rear wheel is about 1-2mm closer to the left hand
chainstay than the right. I put another wheel into my
racing frame to confirm it was the wheel and not the frame
alignment...the wheel sat true.

Now my question..how easy is it to re-dish the wheel? I
have a truing stand and spoke key, but up until now have
only used it for keeping wheels straight.

You've already got the skills and equipment - except a
dishing gauge would help (but isn't essential).

Quoted message said:

The spokes on the wheel appear to be tensioned quite
tight, and the drive side appears slightly more tensioned
than the other, is this normal?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

Not knowing a great deal about dishing etc. my first
thought would be tighten the spokes 1/4 turn on the
non-drive side and loosen the spokes 1/4 turn on the
drive side.

You could do that, although possibly more than a 1/4 turn
will be necessary in the end, but start by seeing what that
amount all-round does. Don't be alarmed if the wheel goes
quite a bit out of true. You will get it back!

I suggest only loosening the drive side spokes if you think
they're already over-tight because it's a good idea to have
spokes as tight as possible, within reason. It's common for
wheel builders to leave them slacker than they could be. So
you could just tighten left spokes instead if rim needs to
shift left. It depends on how well the wheels were built or
have been trued.

Admittedly, It is difficult to know how much tension the rim
can safely take at the spoke holes (with modern lightweight
rims). It comes down to feel and intuition, I think.
Adjusting both sides would be safe if in doubt but won't
necessarily make for the strongest wheel.

Anyway, I think it's well worth having a go yourself. I'm no
expert wheel builder but my latest rear wheel is holding up
very well so far. I relied on plenty of guesswork for the
tensioning, to be honest, but the result, although not
perfect, is better than some pro-built wheels I've seen and
used. It just takes me bloody ages!

Note. To reduce the guesswork, you could find a good wheel
with the same spec and pluck the spokes to compare pitch.

~PB

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

MSA said:

My racing wheels are not dished
correctly...when sitting in the frame the rear wheel is
about 1-2mm closer to the left hand chainstay than the
right.

I suggest only loosening the drive side spokes if you
think they're already over-tight because it's a good idea
to have spokes as tight as possible, within reason. It's
common for wheel builders to leave them slacker than they
could be. So you could just tighten left spokes instead if
rim needs to shift left. It depends on how well the wheels
were built or have been trued.

I don't - the original post states that the rim is closer to
the *left hand* chainstay. Unless he rides his bike facing
backwards, the last thing he needs to do is tighten the
nearside spokes! The wheel requires *increased* dishing -
the spokes on the block side need tightening, or the
nearside spokes loosening. Either of these can cause
problems to an inexperienced wheelbuilder; tightening the
already tight can lead to rounded nipples (ouch), or figure-of-
eight wheels, whilst loosening the already loose can lead to
a wheel that's on the verge of collapse.

Repairing what may be a fairly poorly built wheel like this
can be (much) harder than starting from scratch. If you're
not confident, I'd leave it to a good wheelbuilder. If you
still want to have a go, make sure you lubricate the block
side spokes well - spray them with WD40 or similar from both
sides. It's hard to give advice on tension, but it's much
more likely that the wheel is undertensioned than
overtensioned, so you'll need to tighten by at least as much
as you loosen. You'll find that tightening the (tight) block
side spokes 1/4 turn has much less effect than loosening the
nearside spokes, in practice.

The other possibility is that you may have un-dished the
wheel yourself, whilst tweaking. This is always tempting,
precisely because those nearside spokes are so much easier
to use!!! If this is the case, it may be that you actually
*do* need to loosen the nearside a bit.

Other posters' advice is (otherwise) good - especially the
bit about springing the wheel to release twisted spokes.

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"Simon Daw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Repairing what may be a fairly poorly built wheel like
this can be (much) harder than starting from scratch. If
you're not confident, I'd leave it

to

Quoted message said:

a good wheelbuilder.

I wouldn't unless it's an expensive wheel, or someone elses
:-) Instead I'd use it as a good exercise in learning about
wheels, at the end of the day it's not rocket science and is
mainly to do with common sense, patience and experience. It
may take all day to achieve that which a skilled person
would achieve in 20 minutes but so what if you have a day
spare, either you'll have gained a useful skill or unlikely
found you have a block regarding wheels and in future won't
[censored] about but will go straight to a "wheelbuilder".

The only advice I'd add, apart from tightening the drive
side spokes to pull the rim to the right (common sense), is
to be wary of frozen spoke nipples, you can merrily turn the
nipple not realising the whole darn spoke is winding up. It
may be easiest to cut out the offending spoke and if there
are many to replace the whole set.

Here're some tips from The Man:
sheldonbrown.comwheelbuild.htmlOpen ↗

And another useful site:
parktool.comhowfix truing.shtmlOpen ↗
--
Regards, Pete

Simon Daw said:

Quoted message said:

I suggest only loosening the drive side spokes if you
think they're already over-tight because it's a good idea
to have spokes as tight as possible, within reason. It's
common for wheel builders to leave them slacker than they
could be. So you could just tighten left spokes instead
if rim needs to shift left. It depends on how well the
wheels were built or have been trued.

I don't

You don't what?

Quoted message said:

- the original post states that the rim is closer to the
*left hand* chainstay.

Sorry I missed that, but it my advice doesn't clash
with it.....

Quoted message said:

Unless he rides his bike facing backwards, the last thing
he needs to do is tighten the nearside spokes!

I said "*IF* rim needs to shift left...". I like to post
some general advice as well as answering specific questions.

Quoted message said:

The wheel requires *increased* dishing - the spokes on the
block side need tightening, or the nearside spokes
loosening. Either of these can cause problems to an
inexperienced wheelbuilder; tightening the already tight
can lead to rounded nipples (ouch), or figure-of-eight
wheels, whilst loosening the already loose can lead to a
wheel that's on the verge of collapse.

I accept that, but wheels are often built with the right
spokes too loose so there would be scope to tighten them
further (this may also be the case if wheel has been trued
badly subsequently). Obviously you don't go on tightening if
the nipples are hard to turn or spokes seems to tight, you
change tactics.

~PB

MSA <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I noticed last year but have put it off till now to get
something done (plonker, yes I know!). My racing wheels
are not dished correctly...when sitting in the frame the
rear wheel is about 1-2mm closer to the left hand
chainstay than the right. I put another wheel into my
racing frame to confirm it was the wheel and not the frame
alignment...the wheel sat true.

Simplest this to do is to shift washer/spaces from one side
to the other. 2mm is not much.

If you're going to re-do all the spokes then it's also best
to get rid of a much stuff between the hub flanges and the
right side as you can - let's you give the right side as
much dish as possible, which is a Good Thing.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

MSA <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I noticed last year but have put it off till now to get
something done (plonker, yes I know!). My racing wheels
are not dished correctly...when sitting in the frame the
rear wheel is about 1-2mm closer to the left hand
chainstay than the right. I put another wheel into my
racing frame to confirm it was the wheel and not the
frame alignment...the wheel sat true.

Simplest this to do is to shift washer/spaces from one
side to the other. 2mm is not much.

If you're going to re-do all the spokes then it's also
best to get rid of a much stuff between the hub flanges
and the right side as you can - let's you give the right
side as much dish as possible, which is a Good Thing.

I started this conversation wrong by saying tighten the NON-
drive side to pull the wheel to the right (it's 1-2mm closer
to the left stay, I'm sorry, I meant the DRIVE side!

Right, the wheel is fancy, my regular wheels (Open
Pro/Record and
CXP33/Record) are fine. The wheel in question is the one I
race with, its an American Classic 420, 24 spoke, see:
tinyurl.com35sjzOpen ↗

Reading the gumpf on the manufacturers web site it says that
the wheels are built using DT Spoke Freeze and that:

"In order to true an American Classic wheel, you, or your
bike shop will need to use a tool known as a "Twist Resist"
spoke clamp tool, manufactured by Competition Cycles
Services. The Twist Resist tool prevents spoke windup, and
MUST be used for truing any American Classic wheel"

I haven't fiddled about truing the wheel at all, I've only
raced a few hundred miles on it and it's perfectly
true...just not in the right *&^&%$% place!

Guess the Spoke Freeze could pose a problem so:

If I was to go down the route of fitting a thin washer to
the left hand side, that would then necessitate adjusting
the rear derailleur every time I swap over yes?

Thanks for the help guys.

--
Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not
volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during
transmission

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I started this conversation wrong by saying tighten the
NON-drive side to pull the wheel to the right (it's 1-
2mm closer to the left stay, I'm sorry, I meant the
DRIVE side!

Right, the wheel is fancy, my regular wheels (Open
Pro/Record and
CXP33/Record) are fine. The wheel in question is the one I
race with, its an American Classic 420, 24 spoke,
see: tinyurl.com35sjzOpen ↗

Reading the gumpf on the manufacturers web site it says
that the wheels are built using DT Spoke Freeze and that:

"In order to true an American Classic wheel, you, or
your bike shop will need to use a tool known as a
"Twist Resist" spoke clamp tool, manufactured by
Competition Cycles Services. The Twist Resist tool
prevents spoke windup, and MUST be used for truing any
American Classic wheel"

I haven't fiddled about truing the wheel at all, I've only
raced a few hundred miles on it and it's perfectly
true...just not in the right *&^&%$% place!

Guess the Spoke Freeze could pose a problem so:

If I was to go down the route of fitting a thin washer to
the left hand side, that would then necessitate adjusting
the rear derailleur every time I swap over yes?

Thanks for the help guys.

I've just fitted a very thin washer to the wheel, it has
brought it 'almost' in line...it will do for now. I couldn't
fit anything thicker because the hub would not allow (the
ends of the hub did not go through the thickness of the rear
drop outs (did that make sense?). I've just ridden the bike
around the block (in bare feet!), and the thinness of the
washer hasn't seemed to affected the shifting. I'll try it
out for proper tomorrow. At least now the tyre doesn't look
as if it will touch the frame, that's the trouble with
racing geometry...so close everywhere.

--
Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not
volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during
transmission

MSA said:

Right, the wheel is fancy, my regular wheels (Open
Pro/Record and
CXP33/Record) are fine. The wheel in question is the one I
race with, its an American Classic 420, 24 spoke,
see: tinyurl.com35sjzOpen ↗

I think low spoke count wheels with special spokes are a
different bucket of sausages: different from what I was
thinking about, best left to a pro builder

Quoted message said:

Reading the gumpf on the manufacturers web site it says
that the wheels are built using DT Spoke Freeze and that:

"In order to true an American Classic wheel, you, or
your bike shop will need to use a tool known as a
"Twist Resist" spoke clamp tool, manufactured by
Competition Cycles Services. The Twist Resist tool
prevents spoke windup, and MUST be used for truing any
American Classic wheel"

I wouldn't have thought it's quite as important as they make
out because it's easy to see when bladed spokes are twisted
(they can be corrected by normal methods).

Quoted message said:

......If I was to go down the route of fitting a thin
washer to the left hand side, that would then necessitate
adjusting the rear derailleur every time I swap over yes?

Yes, or at least adjusting the cable to correct indexing.

~PB

MSA <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Reading the gumpf on the manufacturers web site it says
that the wheels are built using DT Spoke Freeze and that:

Well, there's a dead giveaway. Stuff like that is only a
cover for poor wheel-building. Common (almost a pre-req) in
boutique products.

"MSA" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I started this conversation wrong by saying tighten the
NON-drive side to pull the wheel to the right (it's 1-
2mm closer to the left stay, I'm sorry, I meant the
DRIVE side!

;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Guess the Spoke Freeze could pose a problem so:

Yes, it could. It's annoying that builders use this sort of
stuff. There are two opposing theories here; to stop spokes
loosening, you either lubricate the threads with oil (e.g),
so that you can tighten them up adequately, or you use
loctite or similar so that they just don't move. In my
experience, the former is vastly superior - if spokes are
tightened adequately they won't loosen. Locking the spokes
is restrictive, and is sometimes used by sloppy
wheelbuilders who just don't tighten the spokes enough in
the first place. (Not that this is likely to be the case
with your wheels.) I don't think you'll find it hard to get
a builder to sort your wheels - there are other tools that
will do the same job.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If I was to go down the route of fitting a thin
washer to the left hand side, that would then
necessitate adjusting the rear derailleur every time
I swap over yes?

I've just fitted a very thin washer to the wheel, it has
brought it 'almost' in line...it will do for now. I
couldn't fit anything thicker because the hub would not
allow (the ends of the hub did not go through the
thickness of the rear drop outs (did that make sense?).
I've just ridden the bike around the block (in bare
feet!), and the thinness of the washer hasn't seemed to
affected the shifting.

I'd get the wheel checked, but what you've done is a
sensible short-term fix which is unlikely to cause problems.
If your bike is out of track, it will be very marginal.
There are lots of frames and wheels out there that do not
track properly!

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"Simon Daw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"MSA" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Guess the Spoke Freeze could pose a problem so:

Yes, it could. It's annoying that builders use this sort
of stuff.

That sounds like an almighty cop-out to me. I've never
suffered a problem with spokes loosening on either the LBS
wheels or those I've built myself and the only real problem
with OEM wheels has been frozen nipples.
--
Regards, Pete

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

MSA said:

"In order to true an American Classic wheel, you, or
your bike shop will need to use a tool known as a "Twist
Resist" spoke clamp tool, manufactured by Competition
Cycles Services. The Twist Resist tool prevents spoke
windup, and MUST be used for truing any American Classic
wheel"

I wouldn't have thought it's quite as important as they
make out because it's easy to see when bladed spokes are
twisted (they can be corrected by normal methods).

I'd imagine it's to hold the spoke to prevent wind-up in the
first place Pete, rather than a pair if pliers or similar
that could damage them.
--
Regards, Pete

"Simon Daw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"MSA" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

If I was to go down the route of fitting a thin washer
to the left

hand

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

side, that would then necessitate adjusting the rear
derailleur every time I swap over yes?

I've just fitted a very thin washer to the wheel, it has
brought it 'almost' in line...it will do for now. I
couldn't fit anything thicker because the hub would not
allow (the ends of the hub did not go through the
thickness of the rear drop outs (did that make sense?).
I've just ridden the bike around the block (in bare
feet!), and the thinness of the washer hasn't seemed to
affected the shifting.

Sorry, should also have added - the washer on the left side
(which is correct for the problem you've described)
shouldn't affect the gear change in any way. If you think
about it, the mech's distance from the sprockets is
unchanged.

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In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

MSA <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Reading the gumpf on the manufacturers web site it
says that the wheels are built using DT Spoke Freeze
and that:

Well, there's a dead giveaway. Stuff like that is only a
cover for poor wheel-building. Common (almost a pre-req)
in boutique products.

In my experience of handbuilt and boutique wheels I will
agree with you on this point. My handbuilt stuff reeks
quality build, but perhaps it's all in the mind? Man over
machine etc.

--
Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not
volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during
transmission

Peter B said:

I'd imagine it's to hold the spoke to prevent wind-up in
the first place Pete, rather than a pair if pliers or
similar that could damage them.

Yes but would the spokes get damaged if they were would up
half a turn for a second then unwound?

~PB

Simon Daw said:

Sorry, should also have added - the washer on the left
side (which is correct for the problem you've described)
shouldn't affect the gear change in any way. If you think
about it, the mech's distance from the sprockets is
unchanged.

You're right. I was thinking of a washer on the right side
when I posted my reply.

~PB