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Winter Safety

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
15 March 2004
Last activity
19 March 2004
Original author
Michael Hobby
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29
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  1. Other members may be interested to see the following which
    is the text of a letter I have written to the Department of
    Education.

    I would welcome any comments you may wish to make, as long
    as they're not too rude!

    "On Saturday 13th March, whilst walking in Snowdonia, I
    noticed a large number of youngsters – predominantly girls –
    following the same mountain path as myself. There were, I
    believe, about twelve to fifteen teenagers with about three
    or four young adults “leading” them. The fact that I had
    seen them getting out of two mini buses adorned with the
    name of a school led me to believe they were a school party.
    Unfortunately I did not think to make a note of the name of
    the school but I believe it may have been somewhere in the
    Midlands – possibly Mansfield.

    The mountain weather conditions on Saturday could, at best,
    be described as “wintry” and were consistent with the
    forecasts. From about 1200 feet there were increasingly
    large patches of snow and ice and at 2000 feet I estimated
    that the wind was gusting at up to 30 mph. There were
    frequent showers of snow, sleet and hail.

    I became concerned when I noticed that no members of the
    party appeared to be adequately equipped for walking in such
    conditions and have to say that their clothing appeared only
    at best suitable for adverse summer conditions. Nobody
    appeared to be carrying ice axes – an essential item in
    winter – let alone trekking poles and some appeared not to
    have gloves. At one point four teenagers became separated –
    although not at that time dangerously so – from the main
    party whilst they were cavorting in the snow.

    Making light conversation with one of the adults, I was
    given to understand that they were intending to ascend
    Glyder Fach and Glyder Fawr, both of which are in excess of
    3000 feet. Although my intended route did not take me in the
    same direction I could see that conditions on the summits
    were worse with much more snow, presumably more ice and the
    added problem of cloud cover.

    I have, myself, taken many groups of young people into the
    hills and I would be that last person to want to discourage
    such groups from discovering the enjoyment of hill walking
    and mountaineering. However, in the light of some notable
    tragedies in the past involving young people and their
    “leaders” I believe, that as one who is experienced in this
    field, I have a responsibility; without being intrusive;
    towards ensuring that others act and conduct themselves with
    equal responsibility.

    As I mentioned earlier I was unable to identify the group
    but I am writing to you to bring these circumstances to
    light in the hope that, in doing so, this information can be
    passed on and, hopefully, another tragedy averted."

  2. On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:23:03 -0000, "Michael Hobby"
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    I became concerned when I noticed that no members of the
    party appeared to be adequately equipped for walking in
    such conditions and have to say that their clothing
    appeared only at best suitable for adverse summer
    conditions.

    Agree wholeheartedly. There should be a big sign at each of
    the common start points for Snowdon warning that this is,
    for all its touristiness, a mountain on which people die.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

  3. "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:23:03 -0000, "Michael Hobby"
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    I became concerned when I noticed that no members of the
    party appeared


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    be adequately equipped for walking in such conditions and
    have to say


    that

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    their clothing appeared only at best suitable for
    adverse summer


    conditions.

    Quoted message said:


    Agree wholeheartedly. There should be a big sign at
    each of the common start points for Snowdon warning
    that this is, for all its touristiness, a mountain on
    which people die.

    Oh let them die. It's called Darwinism.

  4. Rifleman said:

    Oh let them die. It's called Darwinism.

    But think of the litter they'd make.

    --
    Chris

  5. I agree with everything you say. In fact you don't go far
    enough. There should be manned guard posts at all access
    points to the hills, where anybody wishing to venture
    further would be quizzed as to their knowledge and
    preparation for the prevailing (or potential) conditions. Of
    course, anybody attempting to take a party of children onto
    the hills would be immediately arrested and charged with
    attempted manslaughter.

  6. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    Agree wholeheartedly. There should be a big sign at
    each of the common start points for Snowdon warning
    that this is, for all its touristiness, a mountain on
    which people die.


    " It's OK! it's "other people" that die!"

  7. Michael Hobby said:

    Other members may be interested to see the following which
    is the text of a letter I have written to the Department of
    Education.

    I would welcome any comments you may wish to make, as long
    as they're not too rude!

    Conditions weren't that bad on Saturday. There was little
    snow on Tryfan, although cloud cover could have been an
    issue. An adult - pupil ratio of 1:3 or 1:4 seems more than
    adequate so long as they were suitably qualified to lead a
    party in winter conditions.

    I frequently set off on an assent without wearing gloves, so
    I don't see that as necessarily an issue so long as they had
    some in their packs.

    Tragedies involving school parties in the mountains are
    blissfully rare, although that's no excuse for being
    complacent. It is far more important that children are
    allowed to take part in healthy activities than wrapped up
    in cotton wool, and if that means that 5 children per decade
    lose their lives on school trips, so be it. They are still a
    great many times more likely to be killed by cars than
    mountains. Indeed, a shopping trip in the High Street is far
    more dangerous that a hike along High Street.

  8. Michael Hobby said:

    let alone trekking poles

    Hahahahahahahahaaa!

    --

    Paul

    My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003):

    paulrooney.netfirms.compaulrooney.netfirms.com

  9. In message <[email hidden]>,
    Simon Caldwell <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    I agree with everything you say. In fact you don't go far
    enough. There should be manned guard posts at all access
    points to the hills, where anybody wishing to venture
    further would be quizzed as to their knowledge and
    preparation for the prevailing (or potential) conditions.
    Of course, anybody attempting to take a party of children
    onto the hills would be immediately arrested and charged
    with attempted manslaughter.


    Why not just send them to Guantanemo Bay.

    --
    Martin Richardson
    227/284 Munros - 20% to go
    228/34 'Furths' & 439/439 Nuttalls - 0% to go
    229/89 Donalds - 64% to go
    230/1552 Marilyns - 73% to go /? Himalayans - 100% to go

  10. [email hidden] said...

    Quoted message said:

    Other members may be interested to see the following which
    is the text of a letter I have written to the Department
    of Education.

    I would welcome any comments you may wish to make, as long
    as they're not too rude!

    "On Saturday 13th March, whilst walking in Snowdonia, I
    noticed a large number of youngsters – predominantly girls
    – following the same mountain path as myself.

    The gender of the party is only relevant for identification
    of the school or club. Don't forget they could have been
    borrowing the minibuses and may not have had anything to do
    with the school whose name appeared on the side.

    Quoted message said:

    The mountain weather conditions on Saturday could, at
    best, be described as “wintry” and were consistent with
    the forecasts.

    The forecasts are a relevant point.

    Quoted message said:

    I became concerned when I noticed that no members of the
    party appeared to be adequately equipped for walking in
    such conditions and have to say that

    But were they carrying anything? Clothing can be carried in
    bags, don't forget. And I distinctly remember one particular
    urw expedition whereat although we had very cold and windy
    blizzard-like conditions at the top of our chosen hill I
    nonetheless walked up the first bit of it in a short-sleeved
    T-shirt because despite the snow I was hot.

    Quoted message said:

    Making light conversation with one of the adults, I was
    given to understand that they were intending to ascend
    Glyder Fach and Glyder Fawr, both of which are in excess
    of 3000 feet. Although my intended route did not take me
    in the same direction I could see that conditions on the
    summits were worse with much more snow, presumably more
    ice and the added problem of cloud cover.

    Out of interest, did you find out whether any of them had
    done that route before?

    Quoted message said:

    As I mentioned earlier I was unable to identify the group
    but I am writing to you to bring these circumstances to
    light in the hope that, in doing so, this information can
    be passed on and, hopefully, another tragedy averted."

    Passed on to whom?
    --
    Fran If you need my email address please ask.

  11. In message <[email hidden]>,
    Fran <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    But were they carrying anything? Clothing can be carried in
    bags, don't forget. And I distinctly remember one
    particular urw expedition whereat although we had very cold
    and windy blizzard-like conditions at the top of our chosen
    hill I nonetheless walked up the first bit of it in a short-
    sleeved T-shirt because despite the snow I was hot.


    I was walking across Derry Cairngorm and Bheinn Mhanach on
    Tuesday last week on deep snow and ice wearing a T-shirt -
    and almost suffering from heatstroke. I wished I had taken
    shorts and a sunhat with me. My bag was full of silly things
    like furry hats, gloves, waterproofs and a scarf.

    Mind you on Thursday I could barely stand up in the wind on
    Carn Dearg.

    But then, look, only 20% to go and I'll no longer need to
    put up with these silly weather extremes. Hurrah!

    --
    Martin Richardson
    227/284 Munros - 20% to go 34/34 'Furths' & 439/439 Nuttalls
    - 0% to go
    228/89 Donalds - 64% to go 0/? Himalayans - 100% to go
    229/1552 Marilyns - 73% to go

  12. [email hidden] said...

    Quoted message said:

    I agree with everything you say. In fact you don't go far
    enough. There should be manned guard posts at all access
    points to the hills, where anybody wishing to venture
    further would be quizzed as to their knowledge and
    preparation for the prevailing (or potential) conditions.

    Oh, absolutely. And GOMLs should be rewarded for their
    stance against irresposible use of hills and wide open
    spaces.

    Quoted message said:

    Of course, anybody attempting to take a party of children
    onto the hills would be immediately arrested and charged
    with attempted manslaughter.

    Oh I say, that's coming it a bit too strong, dontcher know,
    what? Attempted manslaughter? Surely anyone endangering the
    lifes of the next generation of hooligans should be awarded
    a medal for their efforts.
    --
    Fran If you need my email address please ask.

  13. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Fran said:


    Surely anyone endangering the lifes of the next
    generation of hooligans should be awarded a medal
    for their efforts.

    Is there something you need to tell us?

    --
    Nick Kew

  14. Rifleman said:

    "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]>
    wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:23:03 -0000, "Michael Hobby"
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    I became concerned when I noticed that no members of the
    party appeared


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    be adequately equipped for walking in such conditions
    and have to say


    that

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    their clothing appeared only at best suitable for
    adverse summer


    conditions.

    Quoted message said:


    Agree wholeheartedly. There should be a big sign at
    each of the common start points for Snowdon warning
    that this is, for all its touristiness, a mountain on
    which people die.

    Oh let them die. It's called Darwinism.

    Darwinism on the part of the teachers is one thing, but
    leading minors to their deaths is another. There's accidents
    that can happen to anyone on a nice day and there is leading
    people into dangerous situations. If the conditions were as
    the OP says I'd have told the leaders they appeared to be
    heading into deep [censored] both legally and morally.

    Quoted message said:

    --
    79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot. The other
    42% are made up later on. In Warwick - looking at flat
    fields and that includes the castle.

  15. [email hidden] said...

    Quoted message said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>, Fran

    Quoted message said:


    Surely anyone endangering the lifes of the next
    generation of hooligans should be awarded a medal
    for their efforts.

    Is there something you need to tell us?

    <G>
    --
    Fran If you need my email address please ask.

  16. Martin Richardson said:

    I was walking across Derry Cairngorm and Bheinn Mhanach on
    Tuesday last week on deep snow and ice wearing a T-shirt -
    and almost suffering from heatstroke. I wished I had taken
    shorts and a sunhat with me. My bag was full of silly
    things like furry hats, gloves, waterproofs and a scarf.

    Derry Cairngorm *and* Bheinn Mhanach on the same day. That's
    one hell of a walk!
    --
    Phil Cook looking north over the park to the
    "Westminster Gasworks"

  17. "Fran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] said... GOMLs

    By the use of this sneering shorthand I presume you are a
    left-wing townie?

  18. "Michael Hobby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    The mountain weather conditions on Saturday could, at
    best, be described


    as

    Quoted message said:

    "wintry" and were consistent with the forecasts. From
    about 1200 feet


    there

    Quoted message said:

    were increasingly large patches of snow and ice and at
    2000 feet I


    estimated

    Quoted message said:

    that the wind was gusting at up to 30 mph. There were
    frequent showers of snow, sleet and hail.

    Making light conversation with one of the adults, I was
    given to


    understand

    Quoted message said:

    that they were intending to ascend Glyder Fach and Glyder
    Fawr, both of which are in excess of 3000 feet. Although
    my intended route did not take


    me

    Quoted message said:

    in the same direction I could see that conditions on the
    summits were


    worse

    Quoted message said:

    with much more snow, presumably more ice and the added
    problem of cloud cover.

    A report in the Western Mail of the rescue, the same day, of
    2 apparently ill equipped walkers one of whom fell whilst
    descending from Bwlch Coch on Crib y Ddysgl can be read at
    tinyurl.com3cg92 It would appear to confirm your
    opinion of the weather conditions Mike.

    I quote an extract:- "Chris Lloyd, Ogwen Valley Mountain
    Rescue Organisation member and spokesman, said

    ""These were some of the worst weather conditions we've seen
    this winter.

    I've no idea why they were up there - nobody else stopped to
    help them because there was nobody else up there as they had
    all heeded the weather warnings.""

    The team also criticised the pair's lack of preparation,
    saying they were not even properly equipped for a summer
    walk - the injured man was wearing light summer boots
    and his friend wore trainers, while neither had a torch
    or a whistle."

    One can but wonder.

    Gwyn

  19. In message <[email hidden]>,
    Phil Cook <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:22:36 +0000, Martin Richardson

    Quoted message said:

    I was walking across Derry Cairngorm and Bheinn Mhanach on
    Tuesday last week on deep snow and ice wearing a T-shirt -
    and almost suffering from heatstroke. I wished I had taken
    shorts and a sunhat with me. My bag was full of silly
    things like furry hats, gloves, waterproofs and a scarf.

    Derry Cairngorm *and* Bheinn Mhanach on the same day.
    That's one hell of a walk!

    Sorry I meant Mheadhoin - it was late when I wrote that.

    --
    Martin Richardson
    227/284 Munros - 20% to go 34/34 'Furths' & 439/439 Nuttalls
    - 0% to go
    228/89 Donalds - 64% to go 0/? Himalayans - 100% to go
    229/1552 Marilyns - 73% to go

  20. Ferlas Mor said:

    A report in the Western Mail of the rescue, the same day,
    of 2 apparently ill equipped walkers one of whom fell
    whilst descending from Bwlch Coch on Crib y Ddysgl can be
    read at tinyurl.com3cg92 It would appear to confirm
    your opinion of the weather conditions Mike.

    For weather details see
    fhc.co.ukarchive.

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