Phantom vs P38

In article <[email hidden]>, dizone1 @lycos.com says...

Quoted message said:

Has anyone owned both the Phantom and P38 or have carnal knowledge of both? I am trying to decide
between the two. I have sizing issues which I won't go into here and some preferences but I do not
want to flavor the feed back. I would be buying just a frame and then building it the way I want
so component related differences would be negated. Is the weight diff between the two mostly
component differences or the frame? Is one frame just a better performer due to the difference in
construction? My understanding is the geometry is the same. Please let me know if I am incorrect.
I am also undecided on the two handlebar choices with the attendant differences in shifters and
brake levers. What the heck are the "A" brakes on the Phantom? I did not see V-brakes as a frame
option for the Phantom.

Please feel free to contact me off the forum if you wish. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks, Don

Other than a ride or two on a Phantom, All my experience is with the P-38. I will try to restrict
my comments thus. The P-38 will likely be a little lighter and faster. Seating can be improved
minimally. Seating adjustment on the Lightning (either flavor) is not possible. Brakes are
terrible and you are restricted with interference with the chain in front and (for me in the back
too). The "A" brakes that you refer are Odyssey A Brakes that mount with the cable on the left and
are IMO [censored].

The P-38 is a fast and can be developed into a decent bike. The prices between the two are reflected
in the construction geometry. The drop
h/b found on the P-38 are nice if you like barcon shifters(I do) The 30° Drop bend h/b work well if
you are comfortable with GRIPSHIFT shifters (I am). A Bacchetta Giro is a better bike out of the
box than the Lightning P- 38 and over $1000 less. I would prefer a Giro over a Phantom because I
can get comfortable on it and the seating is more comfotrable and adjustable. It takes a lot of
work to get a P-38 in racing condition. I would like better seating but I have adapted to the
limited angle of the Lightning seat.

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

I have to respectfully disagree with Cletus. As far as the comparison of the Phantom (which I own)
to the Bacchetta, I posed the comparison to the dealer- (Rolf at Hostelshoppe) and even tho' he
would have made more selling me the Bacchetta, he recommended the Phantom. I have ridden a P-38 a
few times and it is a wonderful bicycle, lighter, and I assume faster than my Phantom, but for me it
was a matter of an additional $1000, which I could not justify. The seat on the Phantom is quite
adjustable, and extremely comfortable, much more so than my Linear LWB which I once had. As for the
bars, due to my leg length, I find the drop bars having a better chance for knee 'interruption' than
the straight bar. Either shifting mechanism works fine. Hope this helps. chas

Well ... it's turning out to be a confusing and difficult decision but after test-riding the
drop-dead-gorgeous Bacchetta Aero twice ... I am beginning to suspect that the P-38 design may be
"better" for me in terms of body-to-bike fit, comfortable seating, power-application, whatever. I
sold a P-38 XT instead of keeping it for a 2nd "fast-on-hills" recumbent .... and I am beginning to
think selling it may have been a mistake. I'm now (maybe) thinking about looking around for a used
F-80 or R-84. Hmmm.

"Dj Blag" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I have to respectfully disagree with Cletus. As far as the comparison of

the

Quoted message said:

Phantom (which I own) to the Bacchetta, I posed the comparison to the dealer- (Rolf at
Hostelshoppe) and even tho' he would have made more selling me the Bacchetta, he recommended the
Phantom. I have ridden a P-38 a few times and it is a wonderful bicycle, lighter,

and

Quoted message said:

I assume faster than my Phantom, but for me it was a matter of an

additional

Quoted message said:

$1000, which I could not justify.

I was ready to give up my long dream of owning a Lightning in favor of the Bacchetta, but Rolf
talked me out of it. One reason its weight, and the other was he didn't think it handled as well as
a Lightning. chas

[email hidden] (Don) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Has anyone owned both the Phantom and P38 or have carnal knowledge of both? I am trying to decide
between the two. I have sizing issues which I won't go into here and some preferences but I do not
want to flavor the feed back. I would be buying just a frame and then building it the way I want
so component related differences would be negated. Is the weight diff between the two mostly
component differences or the frame? Is one frame just a better performer due to the difference in
construction? My understanding is the geometry is the same. Please let me know if I am incorrect.
I am also undecided on the two handlebar choices with the attendant differences in shifters and
brake levers. What the heck are the "A" brakes on the Phantom? I did not see V-brakes as a frame
option for the Phantom.

Please feel free to contact me off the forum if you wish. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks, Don

One difference that makes some people prefer the Phantom is the ability to adjust both the boom and
the seat fore-and-aft to dial in weight distribution between the two wheels.

The Oddessy(sp?) A-brake is a brand of V-brake.

The handle bar styles are strictly personal preference, with regard to both grip angle and style
of shifter.

The 700mm rear wheel on the P-38 permits the use of tires with the lowest rolling resistance.

Most people I know who have ridden both bikes consider the Phantom's handling less
sensitive at speed.

Len Thunberg

[email hidden] (Don) wrote in news:bf9a2acd.0302281802.725114 @posting.google.com:

Quoted message said:

Has anyone owned both the Phantom and P38 or have carnal knowledge of both? I am trying to decide
between the two. I have sizing issues which I won't go into here and some preferences but I do not
want to flavor the feed back. I would be buying just a frame and then building it the way I want
so component related differences would be negated. Is the weight diff between the two mostly
component differences or the frame? Is one frame just a better performer due to the difference in
construction? My understanding is the geometry is the same. Please let me know if I am incorrect.
I am also undecided on the two handlebar choices with the attendant differences in shifters and
brake levers. What the heck are the "A" brakes on the Phantom? I did not see V-brakes as a frame
option for the Phantom.

Please feel free to contact me off the forum if you wish. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks, Don

While the P38 was a fine machine, and certainly helped win the war,no propeller driven aircraft
could begin to cope with a crazy mad jet like the F1 Phantom!!!!!!!!

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

One difference that makes some people prefer the Phantom is the ability to adjust both the boom
and the seat fore-and-aft to dial in weight distribution between the two wheels.

I was not aware that the Phantom seat was different from the P-38. Having a seat that has no
adjustments is a big issue for me with my P-
38.

Now if the seat tilt could happen, that IMO would be a big improvement.

--
Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Yeah, but P-38 has such a 'ring' to us WW2 brats! Chas

I ride a Phantom II, which has the same component level of the base P-38 (love those bar end
shifters)with the exception of a 26" wheel instead of a 700C. Same hub though. IMO, it is clearly
a better bike than any other sub $2,000 bike I have tried. I don't know if the P-38 is $700-$800
better. I think the Phantom will outclimb everything but a P-38 (or a DF). The Phantom II is a
good compromise between the performance of the P-38 and the price of the Phantom base model, IMO.
I submitted a detailed review to RCN, no official word as to its publication yet. It is a very
good bike.

[email hidden] (Don) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Has anyone owned both the Phantom and P38 or have carnal knowledge of both? I am trying to decide
between the two. I have sizing issues which I won't go into here and some preferences but I do not
want to flavor the feed back. I would be buying just a frame and then building it the way I want
so component related differences would be negated. Is the weight diff between the two mostly
component differences or the frame? Is one frame just a better performer due to the difference in
construction? My understanding is the geometry is the same. Please let me know if I am incorrect.
I am also undecided on the two handlebar choices with the attendant differences in shifters and
brake levers. What the heck are the "A" brakes on the Phantom? I did not see V-brakes as a frame
option for the Phantom.

Please feel free to contact me off the forum if you wish. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks, Don

Quoted message said:

I have sizing issues which I won't go into here and some preferences but I do

not want to flavor the feed back.>>

If we knew what your sizing issues are, we might be able to give you better advice. I test rode a
2000 Stealth (the former version of the Phantom). And I loved it. But I wanted more speed, so I
shelled out the extra $$ for the P-38. I've never regretted it. To repeat the advice I've given here
before, if you buy a P-38, for God's sake just get the base model. Do your own upgrades after you've
ridden it 1000 miles.

Norm

Thanks for all the input. Dj--do you have long legs or short that make you prefer the v-bars instead
of the drop? With my short legs the drop bars seemed to be in the way on the large frame I sat on.
Short riders have their knees come much closer to their chest that riders that are taller. And small
differences in crank arm length don't make up the difference.

I am still confused on the tilt stem available on the Phantom vs the ??? on the P-38. How does the
P-38 stem work adjustment wise?

I dislike the Giro design because the seat would climb the tube to get it close enough to the crank
for me. The web site pictures are scary with the seat bottom pointed 45 degrees into the air. Still,
I was willing to give them a try but the local dealer won't have any smalls in stock until May. I
live in CA and have been riding all winter. It is quickly becoming spring and I have ridden 6 out of
the last 12 days and plan on riding tomorrow and the day after. May is not acceptable. I want to
avoid the spring rush to buy and start enjoying the bike now.

More Information requested: How tall are you? What is your X-seam? What sizes of which bikes have
you tried?

I am 5'7" with a 41-42" X-seam.

I have a Med P-38 and a Std Giro. I tried a Strada but I am too short. The Std Giro fits me
just fine.

I tested a Large P-38 and a Large Phantom. Seat to ground was a stretch and I could not comfortably
reach the pedals. I got a Medium P-38. The Boom is at the outer limit of adjustment. (I hope I've
stopped growing). I probably could not be comfortable on a small Lightning. I got my P-38 with a
16"(349) front wheel I did not like the small wheel. With a 20" fork, I am happier with the
Lightning. You should be talking to Tim Brummer about fitting a Lightning. (well maybe not. He
talked me into the 16" fork.)

The Bacchetta is 10 times a better designed bike than the Lightning. Both are good but I took a long
time tweaking the Lightning to make it work well for me. The longer WB on the Bacchetta Giro makes
for a more comfortable ride over the P-38.

I wish I could get a Bacchetta seat on my lightning. Out of the Box, the foam seat pad is wimpy and
non supportative. I replaced the foam with a Thermarest stadium seat and I am happier. The tubular
frame hits me across my neck vertibrae just at my shoulders. It was a painful to ride more than
15-20 miles untill I padded the frame at that point with Pipe insulation. The seat laces have to be
replaced often since the grommets cut through them every few thousand miles. The seat laces must be
kept tight or recumbo'butt will set in.

In article <[email hidden]>, dizone1 @lycos.com says...

Quoted message said:

Thanks for all the input. Dj--do you have long legs or short that make you prefer the v-bars
instead of the drop? With my short legs the drop bars seemed to be in the way on the large frame I
sat on. Short riders have their knees come much closer to their chest that riders that are taller.
And small differences in crank arm length don't make up the difference.

I am still confused on the tilt stem available on the Phantom vs the ??? on the P-38. How does the
P-38 stem work adjustment wise?

Here is a pic of the tilt stem on my P-38: clee.orgLightningLockingSteering2.jpgOpen ↗
clee.orgLightningLockingSteering.jpgOpen ↗

The length of the stem is adjusted with the lock bolt seen in the top photo just above the tilt
steering clamp.

Quoted message said:

I dislike the Giro design because the seat would climb the tube to get it close enough to the
crank for me.

This is the problem I had with the Strada, Unless you are very much shorter than I, the Std Giro
should be comfortable for you.

Quoted message said:

The web site pictures are scary with the seat bottom pointed 45 degrees into the air. Still, I was
willing to give them a try but the local dealer won't have any smalls in stock until May. I live
in CA and have been riding all winter. It is quickly becoming spring and I have ridden 6 out of
the last 12 days and plan on riding tomorrow and the day after. May is not acceptable. I want to
avoid the spring rush to buy and start enjoying the bike now.

You may be too late. The trees have already started to re-leaf here in Texas.

--
Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Cletus D. Lee said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

One difference that makes some people prefer the Phantom is the ability to adjust both the boom
and the seat fore-and-aft to dial in weight distribution between the two wheels.

I was not aware that the Phantom seat was different from the P-38. Having a seat that has no
adjustments is a big issue for me with my P-
38.

Now if the seat tilt could happen, that IMO would be a big improvement.

Not only the seat angle, but also seat position. Which means the seat angle is not limited by the
seat/tire interference - you can just move the seat forward. The tilt angle is only limited by leg
reach, which is a disadvantage of the Lightning seat - since the seat is so deep and wide, if you
tilt it too far you can't put your feet down. I used to have to tiptoe on my Stealth, but I can
put my feet down flat on the Bacchetta Aero (M5 hardshell seat) despite the higher and more
reclined seat.

Also I've heard that the P-38 fork has a very narrow clearance. On the Stealth/Phantom you can mount
a 20x1.75 Comp Pool and still use a standard fender.

I think the P-38 and Phantom has the same (optional) tilt mechanism. I don't like it - the
adjustment steps are too coarse. Maybe the TerraCycle stem is better. I think there's one available
that fits Lightning bikes.

Ken Kobayashi [email hidden] solarwww.mtk.nao.ac.jppersonalOpen ↗

I have owned both a Stealth (now called Phantom) and a P38. I even owned a Bachetta Strada. Of the 3
I like the P38 the best which is why I still have it. The Stealth was a great bike. It took me on
some great rides that I wouldn't have been able to do on a regular bike. The only reason I got rid
of it was to buy the P38 that I got a great deal on. For me, the P38 is faster. It handles great and
is really comfortable. I was really glad I was riding it on the last Century I was in. The Strada is
a great bike also. I really like the idea of wheels the same size. My problem with it was that I
couldn't get the seat adjusted to fit me. With it tilted back, it killed my neck. I just couldn't
get it tilted up enough to be comfortable. Combined with the RANS style seat, it just didn't work
out for me. I know that I am one of the few who just can't get comfortable on a RANS style seat. So,
for me, the P38 is the bike to go with. I wish I still had the Stealth as well to use as a commuter
bike. If I could have a Lighnting seat on a Bachetta, it would probably be just right also. The best
way to see what works for you, is to ride, ride, ride. A bike is a very personal thing and what
works for me or Cletus or any of the other guys might not work for you. Ride them all and go with
what works. Good luck....Bob

Thanks to all for the comments. Cletus, thanks for the pics. Are those stock or something you added?
I thought I remember you mentioning tweaking the stem. I had envisioned something more like a
"flip-it" as stock.

Bob, your suggestion to ride all the bikes only adds to my frustration. I can not even find bikes to
look at let alone one that fits me for a ride. I do appreciate your comparison between the Stealth
(Phantom) and P-38. Sounds like I could probably be happy with either with my bank account being
happier with the former.

I preferred the P-38 based on specs because it is lower in the small size and lighter. I was afraid
the combo size S/M Phantom would be a compromise size wise. I need the smallest they make.

Now I need to find a place to buy it at a good price. The 50% mark-up is too much to pay to a dealer
that has none in stock and just wants to order, and deliver. That is not full service and does not
deserve full mark-up. I probably will only order a frame because I want Ultegra or better components
and the Ultegra package is over-priced and a moot point because it is not available on small frames.
I am going to have to build it myself to get it affordable and the way I want it.

In article <[email hidden]>, dizone1 @lycos.com says...

Quoted message said:

Thanks to all for the comments. Cletus, thanks for the pics. Are those stock or something you
added? I thought I remember you mentioning tweaking the stem. I had envisioned something more like
a "flip-it" as stock.

The Lockdown steering column seen in the pics is lightning stock (Std on the Phantom and extra
on the P-38)

I am still left in the dark as to why you think you need a Small. I didn't think any biking male
would be shorter than me.

--
Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Cletus, or should I say "Big Dog", I am 5.3" and all heart, no legs. X-seam 36.5-37. I contacted
Lightning to see if a med could be massaged shorter but they said I needed a small. I have nothing
else to go on but their spec sheet and response to me. I certainly would feel more comfortable
using the bike with the lowest seat--depending on how it interacted with my legs when I try to
reach the ground.

The bike that fits me great is the TE or GRR but that is more bike than I want to deal with
tranporting and storing. I am spoiled by having everyone of my bikes (Haluzak and 4 DFs) all fit in
the back of my Subaru wagon.

Cletus D. Lee <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The Lockdown steering column seen in the pics is lightning stock (Std on the Phantom and extra on
the P-38)

I am still left in the dark as to why you think you need a Small. I didn't think any biking male
would be shorter than me.

In article <[email hidden]>, dizone1 @lycos.com says...

Quoted message said:

Cletus, or should I say "Big Dog", I am 5.3" and all heart, no legs. X-seam 36.5-37. I contacted
Lightning to see if a med could be massaged shorter but they said I needed a small.

I just measured my boom. I have the Med and the boom is fully extended. If it were at the min mark,
you would only get a little less than 2" A Small Lightning is going to limit you to a 16" wheel.
These small wheels 'feel' every dimple in the road I was not happy with the ride of my Voyager when
I had a 16" wheel.

A Small Giro would maybe work if you could find one. Another thing you might spec is 165mm cranks.
These come Standard on a Small Giro.

FWIW A few year's back, I was working on a programming team comprised of mostly Asians and me the
lone Caucasian. I was actually one of the taller in the group.One day, we were all BS'ing about
being 'vertically challenged.' And then everyone turned on my friend Khoa and started giving him a
hard time about being the shortest in the group. I brought the chatter to a chuckling halt when I
said, "The only reason we keep Khoa around is so that the rest of us can feel tall."

Khoa and I worked together for a few more years and then both of us moved on to other programming
jobs. Last Spring, I helped Khoa get on where I am now developing web pages. Khoa too is all Heart.
And the best damned work mate I have ever had.

--
Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Cletus D. Lee <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, dizone1 @lycos.com says...

Quoted message said:

Cletus, or should I say "Big Dog", I am 5.3" and all heart, no legs. X-seam 36.5-37. I contacted
Lightning to see if a med could be massaged shorter but they said I needed a small.

I just measured my boom. I have the Med and the boom is fully extended. If it were at the min
mark, you would only get a little less than 2" A Small Lightning is going to limit you to a 16"
wheel. These small wheels 'feel' every dimple in the road I was not happy with the ride of my
Voyager when I had a 16" wheel.

A Small Giro would maybe work if you could find one. Another thing you might spec is 165mm cranks.
These come Standard on a Small Giro.

A small, used Giro on sale here rapidtransitcycles.comindex.htmlOpen ↗