Long runs too fast?

Ryan Pearman said:

I can't pace myself for the life of me. I find myself actually preferring the treadmill to keep
myself honest. Anyhow....

I'm trying for a sub-3 effort at Boston.... I've got a couple of 20's in already and did my first
22 today. Figure a good pace for my long runs is ~7:30/mile. I do two loops of a mostly flat
course around downtown portland mainly so I can stock up on goodies (fluids) halfway through. No
mile markers really to speak of on the course, but I do know where "1 mile to go" is, and bugger
all if I ran the first "10" at 6:40 pace and the "11-21" at 7:00 pace.

Question: while it's nice to see that I can run that fast without really trying so hard, does this
somehow mitigate the long run training effect? Other than a longer recovery time, should I be
worried? Am I leaving my race out on the training course?

Ryan - It sounds like you're in good shape.

I would suggest running your marathon pace (MP) miles at the end of the 20-miler. Start off slow
(force yourself) for 5 miles, and then gradually ramp it up. If you can run 6:45 pace for miles 11-
20, and still feel comfortable then you are really looking good. But I wouldn't do that for every
long run - that could take a lot out of you. Try holding yourself back and run no faster than 7:30
pace for some of the long runs.

Since Boston is downhill at the beginning and uphill towards the end
(if I remember correctly from what I've read), then it's a good idea to
try and find a similar course for your long runs. Get your legs ready for

what is in store.

Good luck,

Anthony.

Ryan Pearman said:

I can't pace myself for the life of me. I find myself actually preferring the treadmill to keep
myself honest. Anyhow....

I'm trying for a sub-3 effort at Boston.... I've got a couple of 20's in already and did my first
22 today. Figure a good pace for my long runs is ~7:30/mile. I do two loops of a mostly flat
course around downtown portland mainly so I can stock up on goodies (fluids) halfway through. No
mile markers really to speak of on the course, but I do know where "1 mile to go" is, and bugger
all if I ran the first "10" at 6:40 pace and the "11-21" at 7:00 pace.

Whilst I can't really comment on your overall pace, one method of pacing oneself a bit better on the
long run is to run out and backs. I know it sounds boring but it's not so bad really.

What I do is run for a set time in one direction, turn around and make sure that I always run the
return leg slightly faster. Part of the challenge as your fitness improves is to see how much
further the turnaround point gets from home. The thought that the further you run, the further
you've got to run back helps to inhibit you from pushing too hard in the first half. If Boston does
finish uphill, saving yourself for the second half is going to be particularly improtant.

Good luck with the sub-3

Tim

--
Remove the obvious to reply by email. Please support rheumatoid arthritis research! Visit
justgiving.comspeysideOpen ↗ or www,justgiving.comspeysideOpen ↗ if you're a UK
tax payer.

I would suggest getting a speed monitor... the Forerunner is the cheapers and probably one of the
best. I found that having such a gadget has drastically improved my pacing ability. You could also
go by heart rate instead and buy an el chepo HRM. As for actual pace, I've often heard it said that
the long slow runs cannot be too slow.

--
Nova Scotia, Canada

Ryan:

Sounds to me like you are now ready for a sub 3, if that run didn't take that much out of you.

I can honestly say that I never ran a 20 faster than Marathon Pace. I once did a 20 averaging 6:10,
and that was way too fast (I raced at 5:50 -
6:00/mile), and hurt my next marathon. Mostly, I ran a minute to 2 slower than MP. The 20+ milers
are not speedwork!

Fortunately, Boston is in April, so you'll be fully recovered. There is an off chance that you are
in much better than 3:00 shape.

A great predictor for a marathon is a 10k race. If you can run a 10k at MP - 25 seconds (eg, 6:22)
without tapering (an easy medium-length run the day before), you're ready. A 10k is a great
speed/strength workout. And you recover in a couple of days from it, whereas a too-hard 20 can mess
you up for a week.

--Dan

"Ryan Pearman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I can't pace myself for the life of me. I find myself actually preferring the treadmill to keep
myself honest. Anyhow....

I'm trying for a sub-3 effort at Boston.... I've got a couple of 20's in already and did my first
22 today. Figure a good pace for my long runs is ~7:30/mile. I do two loops of a mostly flat
course around downtown portland mainly so I can stock up on goodies (fluids) halfway through. No
mile markers really to speak of on the course, but I do know where "1 mile to go" is, and bugger
all if I ran the first "10" at 6:40 pace and the "11-21" at 7:00 pace.

Question: while it's nice to see that I can run that fast without really trying so hard, does this
somehow mitigate the long run training effect? Other than a longer recovery time, should I be
worried? Am I leaving my race out on the training course?

--Ryan

"Tim Downie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Ryan Pearman said:

I can't pace myself for the life of me. I find myself actually preferring the treadmill to keep
myself honest. Anyhow....

I'm trying for a sub-3 effort at Boston.... I've got a couple of 20's in already and did my
first 22 today. Figure a good pace for my long runs is ~7:30/mile. I do two loops of a mostly
flat course around downtown portland mainly so I can stock up on goodies (fluids) halfway
through. No mile markers really to speak of on the course, but I do know where "1 mile to go"
is, and bugger all if I ran the first "10" at 6:40 pace and the "11-21" at 7:00 pace.

Whilst I can't really comment on your overall pace, one method of pacing oneself a bit better on
the long run is to run out and backs. I know it sounds boring but it's not so bad really.

What I do is run for a set time in one direction, turn around and make sure that I always run the
return leg slightly faster. Part of the challenge as your fitness improves is to see how much
further the turnaround point gets from home. The thought that the further you run, the further
you've got to run back helps to inhibit you from pushing too hard in the first half. If Boston
does finish uphill, saving yourself for the second half is going to be particularly improtant.

Good luck with the sub-3

Tim

Just a couple of elementary thoughts. Don't leave your fight in the gym. You're on a good pace to
break 3 so keep up pushing yourself, but taper off early so you will be fresh. The emotion of that
event will bring lots of energy. It's hard not to dissipate some of it just waiting for the start.

Dan Stumpus said:

Ryan:

Sounds to me like you are now ready for a sub 3, if that run didn't take that much out of you.

I can honestly say that I never ran a 20 faster than Marathon Pace. I once did a 20 averaging 6:10,
and that was way too fast (I raced at 5:50 -
6:00/mile), and hurt my next marathon. Mostly, I ran a minute to 2 slower than MP. The 20+ milers
are not speedwork!

Fortunately, Boston is in April, so you'll be fully recovered. There is an off chance that you are
in much better than 3:00 shape.

A great predictor for a marathon is a 10k race. If you can run a 10k at MP - 25 seconds (eg, 6:22)
without tapering (an easy medium-length run the day before), you're ready. A 10k is a great
speed/strength workout. And you recover in a couple of days from it, whereas a too-hard 20 can mess
you up for a week.

--Dan

Although I can't even dream about running that fast I agree with Dan. I say if you truly
feel "comfortable" at a 6:45-7:00 pace it is potential possible that that IS a good long run
pace for you at this time. If so your highly likely to be able to run a MP significantly
lower. I'd say as Dan stated do a 10K TT or race. to get a really good idea were your
current fitness is and base your pacing on that. Unless you know were you're at now it's
very difficult to say whther your pace is to fast or to slow.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

"Ryan Pearman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I can't pace myself for the life of me. I find myself actually preferring the treadmill to keep
myself honest. Anyhow....

I'm trying for a sub-3 effort at Boston.... I've got a couple of 20's in already and did my first
22 today. Figure a good pace for my long runs is ~7:30/mile. I do two loops of a mostly flat
course around downtown portland mainly so I can stock up on goodies (fluids) halfway through. No
mile markers really to speak of on the course, but I do know where "1 mile to go" is, and bugger
all if I ran the first "10" at 6:40 pace and the "11-21" at 7:00 pace.

Question: while it's nice to see that I can run that fast without really trying so hard, does
this somehow mitigate the long run training effect? Other than a longer recovery time, should I
be worried? Am I leaving my race out on the training course?

--Ryan

In article said:

I would suggest getting a speed monitor... the Forerunner is the cheapers and probably one of the
best. I found that having such a gadget has drastically improved my pacing ability.

Not effective for too reasons: one is that most of these units don't give very good immediate pace
readouts, and another is that if you are running a hilly course, you will get a fairly wide
variation in splits if you run by even effort. There are much better ways to improve ones pacing --
intervals on track, training on short (1 mile or so) loop courses, racing.

I don't think pacing is his main problem anyway -- the main issue for him is to work out what effort
level is appropriate for these runs.

BTW I have a GPS unit and a Fitsense. I use both to get a rough idea of milage, but both are too
imprecise for good instantaneous speed readouts.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Ryan Pearman said:

I can't pace myself for the life of me. I find myself actually preferring the treadmill to keep
myself honest. Anyhow....

Quoted message said:

I'm trying for a sub-3 effort at Boston.... I've got a couple of 20's in already and did my first
22 today. Figure a good pace for my long runs is ~7:30/mile. I do two loops of a mostly flat
course around downtown portland mainly so I can stock up on goodies (fluids) halfway through. No
mile markers really to speak of on the course, but I do know where "1 mile to go" is, and bugger
all if I ran the first "10" at 6:40 pace and the "11-21" at 7:00 pace.

Quoted message said:

Question: while it's nice to see that I can run that fast without really trying so hard, does this
somehow mitigate the long run training effect? Other than a longer recovery time, should I be
worried? Am I leaving my race out on the training course?

Quoted message said:

--Ryan

Absolutely not! You want to be careful not to do this every week and make sure you recover, but if
you are sub-3 a hard long run is not bad. Most really fast guys do 10-12 miles of marathon paced
work during at least half of their long runs. Andy Hass