Persistent Calf Injury

ok, in the interest of spirited debate and to stir some thing up around here (zzzzz)...i'll take the
folowing posture: maybe you're finished, game over, the fat lady has sung, put a fork in it.....you
could be done pal.

it happens to all runners sooner or later. the only thing that stops most passionate runners from
running is injury and or some chronic - persistent pain...and that sounds like what you've
described...repeatable, predictable, localized pain that might speak more to your own
physical/muscular genetics and vulnerable points (at this stage in your life) then an at-large
general type of injury. or....maybe you're not done. really...you're now 41 and no longer
21. maybe you just can't do the things you did when you were 21.

as a soon to be 41 yr. old...i take no joy in speculating on your potential demise as a runner...but
everything you said to me kind of points to this possibility. it's not popular to say....but heck,
it fits right in with what you yourself have described. just about everything you said is consistent
w/what drives most runners at some point in their life to become "former runners". hits some people
in their 30's, others in their 50's...sooner or later it hits us all.

Good luck and doug on this ng can get you an aarp card.

In article said:

Hi everybody!

Hope somebody can give me some advice!

I was a reasonable club runner 15 years ago (I'm now just turned 41!) and after a lay-off (when I
did other sports- football/circuit training/squash etc) I have made several attempts to get back
into running on a non-competitive, own fitness basis.

One of the biggest obstacles for a former competitive runner who is trying to make a "comeback" is
that they have fairly high expectations. For example, I was horribly disappointed when I returned to
running after getting overweight and out of shape, and finding myself unable to run a single mile in
7 minutes.

Maybe in your club-running days, you were training in the 7-7:30 pace range, but if you go running
now, you may well need to train much slower than that, maybe in the 9:00-10:00 range, and you may
need to do some walk-running before then.

So I think the most important thing to do when returning is to go really slowly. Be willing to "be a
beginner", a true beginner, and forget your self-image as a runner. Take a look at some of these
beginners programs that start by building up a base of walking.

CHeers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

"Zola" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi everybody!

Hope somebody can give me some advice!

I was a reasonable club runner 15 years ago (I'm now just turned 41!) and after a lay-off (when I
did other sports- football/circuit training/squash etc) I have made several attempts to get back
into running on a non-competitive, own fitness basis.

My problem is a recurrent calf injury/muscle type strain which tends to manifest itself when I
have got through the initial new runner phase and I am just starting to stretch myself. It can be
in either calf muscle and is not always in the same place. I usually feel a sudden cramp which
comes on within a few strides and makes further jogging impossible.The only cure is

a

Quoted message said:

complete layoff which plays havoc with any training schedule.

I have also experienced the problem when I have been running quite well

over

Quoted message said:

a period and I push myself particularly hard on say hill sprint work.Any ideas of the cause and
how to avoid it?

Cheers

This might help: julstro.comindex.aspOpen ↗

And check out the forum as well: pub47.ezboard.comfthejulstroandcttcforumfrm3Open ↗

Zola <[email hidden]> writes:
: Hi everybody!

: Hope somebody can give me some advice!

: I was a reasonable club runner 15 years ago (I'm now just turned 41!) and after a lay-off (when I
: did other sports- football/circuit training/squash etc) I have made several attempts to get back
: into running on a non-competitive, own fitness basis.

: My problem is a recurrent calf injury/muscle type strain which tends to manifest itself when I
: have got through the initial new runner phase and I am just starting to stretch myself. It can be
: in either calf muscle and is not always in the same place. I usually feel a sudden cramp which
: comes on within a few strides and makes further jogging impossible.The only cure is a complete
: layoff which plays havoc with any training schedule.

: I have also experienced the problem when I have been running quite well over a period and I push
: myself particularly hard on say hill sprint work.Any ideas of the cause and how to avoid it?

: Cheers

You are overtraining big time. You need to lower the intensity and work on distance and endurance.
The next time you feel the pain, back off.

Quoted message said:

My problem is a recurrent calf injury/muscle type strain which tends to

manifest itself when I have got through the initial new runner phase and I am just starting to
stretch myself. It can be in either calf muscle and is not always in the same place. I usually
feel a sudden cramp which comes on within a few strides and makes further jogging impossible.The
only cure is a

Quoted message said:

complete layoff which plays havoc with any training schedule. I have also

experienced the problem when I have been running quite well over a period and I push myself
particularly hard on say hill sprint work.Any ideas of the cause and how to avoid it?

My own experience has been that it is not unusual to have some calf overuse from starting hill work,
speed work, or sometimes even if ramping up to long runs. It is often stated in running books that
you should expect calf involvement with hills and increased speed.

Also, because you are: (a) describing what you feel as a "cramp;" and (b) indicating that you
sometimes feel it on the left and at other times on the right; tells me that this situation
shouldn't be catastrophic. It doesn't sound like an "injury" in the common sense of the word, but
more like a form of overuse or a symptom of running differently than your norm (e.g., faster, or
longer, or on hills).

I think perhaps you merely need to assess your age, and consider building to your goals more
gradually. FWIW, I am 44 years old myself.

In article said:

ok, in the interest of spirited debate and to stir some thing up around here (zzzzz)...i'll take
the folowing posture: maybe you're finished, game over, the fat lady has sung, put a fork in
it.....you could be done pal.

it happens to all runners sooner or later. the only thing that stops most passionate runners from
running is injury and or some chronic - persistent pain...and that sounds like what you've
described...repeatable, predictable, localized pain that might speak more to your own
physical/muscular genetics and vulnerable points (at this stage in your life) then an at-large
general type of injury. or....maybe you're not done. really...you're now 41 and no longer 21.
maybe you just can't do the things you did when you were 21.

I had a good 6 months of training ruined by achilles tendon problems last year. During the early
stages of my return to running, I was having all sorts of problems (mostly caused by too much
too soon).

I think Bob Glover has had a few bad years in his time, but you're still going to see him picking up
age group awards in the club points races next year.

I think it would be premature of him to quit.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

This post from "LanceAndrew" is complete nonsense. I run with people even into their 70's and 80's,
some of whom outrun people who are 40 years their juniors. Just run within your state of training
and within your age group, and you can still improve. But you cannot advance at the same rate you
did when you were
18. Recommending quitting is mean-spirited.

Quoted message said:

maybe you're finished, game over, the fat lady has sung, put a fork in it.....you could be
done pal.

it happens to all runners sooner or later. the only thing that stops most passionate runners from
running is injury and or some chronic - persistent pain...and that sounds like what you've
described...repeatable, predictable, localized pain that might speak more to your own
physical/muscular genetics and vulnerable points (at this stage in your life) then an at-large
general type of injury. or....maybe you're not done. really...you're now 41 and no longer
21. maybe you just can't do the things you did when you were 21.

as a soon to be 41 yr. old...i take no joy in speculating on your potential demise as a
runner...but everything you said to me kind of points to this possibility. it's not popular to
say....but heck, it fits right in with what you yourself have described. just about everything you
said is consistent
w/what drives most runners at some point in their life to become "former runners". hits some people
in their 30's, others in their 50's...sooner or later it hits us all.

This post from "LanceAndrew" is complete nonsense. I run with people even into their 70's and 80's,
some of whom outrun people who are 40 years their juniors.
__

pointing out exceptions means nothing. i too run with elderly people that smoke younger people...we
all do, illustrates nothing but exceptions.

face it....it's persistent pain & injury(feet/knees/legs, etc.) that ends most runners involvement
w/running. most people know that. it happens to most in a matter of time. again...for all of us for
the most part...it's just a matter of time.

the original poster's word for word desription was 100% consistent with the on set of the ending of
a running career. re-read the posters words. yes, it happens to some people in their 40's. heck it
happens to some people in their 30's.

now i was having some sporting fun in pointing it out.....but my point is valid. the poster's words
are consistent w/the beginning of the end. it's that simple and i was simply pointing that out.
we're all in running clubs right? so what. we have a skewed awareness/perspective because we see the
75 year old doing 8 min. miles. but for every runner you see aged 60 in your club...there might be
hundreds of 60 yr. olds across the country that had to "hang it up". don't let the exception skew
your perspective. look at the bell shaped curve of the age groups of running clubs for crissakes,
what's that tell you?

again, don't argue with me, look at the bell shaped curve of the age groups of any running clubs
race and you'll see it peaks in the 30's and then has an appreciable drop off of runners in their
40's (percentage wise). then there's a gradual decline....and when runners hit 60, another
appreciable decline.

how do you explain that? i explain it as injury and persistent chronic pain that comes naturally
with age....hence the drop off in runners. you call that "complete nonsense"....I am telling you my
original post is for the most part spot on.

please mr. arbor77, do tell how my original post is "complete nonsense"?

global

Quoted message said:

now i was having some sporting fun in pointing it out.....but my point is valid. the poster's words
are consistent w/the beginning of the end.

Giving someone "Doomsday" advice is hardly "sporting fun." That's shooting fish in a barrel.

The bell curve for age-level survivors in the population as a whole would in and of itself explain
the age-distribution curve in running clubs.

Your rationalizations aside, and not counting your posts and mine, take a look at a breakdown of the
other responses so far to this thread:

"You can beat this:" 6

"It's Doomsday:" 0

I say apologize to Zona.

You are doing something wrong - so change it.

Change how fast you get back into it - start slowly with walking, jogging

Change the intensity and length of the workout - once you get back into it, don't push as
hard and often

Change the surface that you are running on

Change the level of incline - avoid hills

Change the number of rest days - add more

Replace running with crosstraining - use treadmills, indoor bike

Change the sneakers

Change your warm up and cool down - add more stretching, after you run

Change diet -add potassium for the cramping

Steven

Zola said:

Hi everybody!

Hope somebody can give me some advice!

I was a reasonable club runner 15 years ago (I'm now just turned 41!) and after a lay-off (when I
did other sports- football/circuit training/squash etc) I have made several attempts to get back
into running on a non-competitive, own fitness basis.

My problem is a recurrent calf injury/muscle type strain which tends to manifest itself when I have
got through the initial new runner phase and I am just starting to stretch myself. It can be in
either calf muscle and is not always in the same place. I usually feel a sudden cramp which comes
on within a few strides and makes further jogging impossible.The only cure is a complete layoff
which plays havoc with any training schedule.

I have also experienced the problem when I have been running quite well over a period and I push
myself particularly hard on say hill sprint work.Any ideas of the cause and how to avoid it?

Cheers

mr. arbor77,

you were non-reponsive to the substance of my points and then are so immature and juvenile that you
try to turn the thread into a popularity contest?.. ...how old are you?...hahahaha...resorting to
that kind of says it all.....to the point: what you said about the bell shaped curve is simply wrong
and at least in the western world, this is not a parallel drop off (deaths) of people in their 40s
that matches that in the running population.

again, the initial posters own words are precise and consistent in detail with that which forces
most life long runners.....to end the activity. it's that simple. and you blame me for recognizing
this and pointing it out? grow up will ya?.... the ng is not for unconditional cheerleading.....it's
for sharing of views/perspetives, input, etc.

instead of attacking me personally....focus on the words of the initial poster. they are pretty much
dead on 100% consistent with the end of a running career....and..it's juvenile and silly to attack
me while negating the validity of my observation.

it's entirely very possible this is the beginning of the end for this runner, accept it or not.
Lots of runners have to "hang it up" when they hit their 40's or at some point in their 40's. This
glaringly reflected in the drop of of runners in club membership and races when you see 30-39 yr.
olds and then 40-49 yr. olds. It's natural...it's expected...it makes sense. I'm not making news
in stating this....it's obvious and most deeply familiary with the running community "at-large"
know this.

However it's a steep decline as well when runners hit their 40's. Those that make it throught their
40's....seem to be able to make it through their 50's....and the next steep decline is when runner's
hit their 60's.

We're not talking about the exceptions we all see and personally know. We're talking about what the
real numbers reflect.

If I were the initial poster....I would perhaps consider having a physical by a sports facility/care
center....and seeing a podiatrist....and collecting an array of data on self. With that data,
impliment a gradual plan to integrate running back into my life. That new plan may include special
insoles, shoes, braces.....i would not even rule out accupressure and accupuncture therapy. However
even after all that....the chronic persistent pain my repeat it's pattern with no resolving of the
situation...and that's basically when for this runner....it's over.

Is there room on this ng for frank honesty?...acknowledging things for what they are? Good grief....

globaldisc

Quoted message said:

Change the sneakers

Many runners comment that they seem to be straining their calves more if they have switched to shoes
with less elevation in the heels (e.g., if they go to something more like track shoes from highly-
cushioned "jogging" shoes). Conversely, it may be possible to reduce calf strain by switching your
shoes to something with more heel height, though that normally is a move opposite to a desire for
increased speed.

Quoted message said:

you try to turn the thread into a popularity contest?..

Pointing out that NO OTHER RUNNER here has chimed in to share your view is not "resorting to a
popularity contest;" it is noting that the consensus is solidly against you.

Quoted message said:

the ng is not for unconditional cheerleading.....

No, of course not. The NG exists so we can tell people to quit running. This is
"rec.quit.running," isn't it?

Besides, making constructive suggestions to someone who asked for advice is not "cheerleading." Just
as it is not constructive advice to "go nuclear" in your first post to someone and, in essence, tell
them their running days are over.

Quoted message said:

If I were the initial poster....I would perhaps consider having a physical by

a sports facility/care center....and seeing a podiatrist....and collecting an

Quoted message said:

array of data on self. With that data, impliment a gradual plan to integrate running back into my
life. That new plan may include special insoles, shoes,

braces.....i would not even rule out accupressure and accupuncture therapy.

Perhaps then, you should have said so in your first, rather than your third, post? Or... have you
begun to recognize that you were too harsh? A little honesty can go a long way...

Maybe we should hear again from "Zola?" Any relation to the barefoot Ms. Budd, incidentally? She
would be about 40-42 years old, now, I believe!

Oh, Zola, I almost forgot. If you are inclined to take "LanceAndrew's" advice,
maybe you should pick up his running book:

amazon.com104 6427765 49087Open ↗ 48?v=glance

"Zola" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi everybody!

Hope somebody can give me some advice!

I was a reasonable club runner 15 years ago (I'm now just turned 41!) and after a lay-off (when I
did other sports- football/circuit training/squash etc) I have made several attempts to get back
into running on a non-competitive, own fitness basis.

My problem is a recurrent calf injury/muscle type strain which tends to manifest itself when I
have got through the initial new runner phase and I am just starting to stretch myself. It can be
in either calf muscle and is not always in the same place. I usually feel a sudden cramp which
comes on within a few strides and makes further jogging impossible.The only cure is

a

Quoted message said:

complete layoff which plays havoc with any training schedule.

I have also experienced the problem when I have been running quite well

over

Quoted message said:

a period and I push myself particularly hard on say hill sprint work.Any ideas of the cause and
how to avoid it?

Cheers

I've read the other responses to your post and have two humble suggestions.
1) Get some deep-tissue massage from a reputable sports masseur. You seem to have an unresolved
muscle injury that might respond to treatment.
2) Maybe you push yourself just a bit too soon? Maybe you should lower your sights a bit for quite a
while? Giving up running seems a bit drastic. Jonathan

Wow! What can I say!

Thank you so much to everybody for taking time-out to reply!

It seems like I have a lot to consider but one things for certain.... I won't give up!

After all, it's only one little area that's the problem so whether it's too much too soon or the
shoes I'm sure I'll get to the bottom of it!

My first step I think is to go to a specialist running shop for advice on shoes & maybe get my
style/technique assessed on one of those computer thingy's. I believe from the results they can
determine the correct shoes &/or specialist insoles!

Then I'll do some steady easy walking/jogging. It's true, the mind remembers the old pace like it
was yesterday but the body doesn't!

I know a few runners my age who are still 'flying' but they never had any time off. Many can show
people half their age about running 5 miles or so!

People get injured all the time I guess. It's funny, when you're young and get an injured it's
accepted & acknowledged as being part of the sport. Get the same injury over 40 and all of the a
sudden people say it's down to age.

I think one would know when it's time to give up. When the aches & pains of your whole body
tells you so or when your heart & mind is not in it! Only then maybe it would be time to hang up
your shoes!

You lot (thanks again!) have made me believe & understand that it's only one little problem (one
little screw in a huge engine) which hopefully can be sorted!!!

Cheers you all!!!!!!

Pointing out that NO OTHER RUNNER here has chimed in to share your view is not "resorting to a
popularity contest;" it is noting that the consensus is solidly against you.
------

mr. arbor, your points means ZERO.....and all the real runners here know I'm for the most part quite
accurate, they know you'r saying my words are "complete nonsense" illustrate your lack of knowledge
of the life arch of a runner.

it varies from person to person. some can keep it up through their 40's, some can't. some their 60's
some can't. in the end, we all succomb to the reality of our personal limitations relative to this
passion we have called running.

Ask yourself the question...what makes the once passionate runner stop? at age 40?.....or 50?....or
60?....or 70? Eventually....we all get to the point that we characterize and speak in words and
specifics EXACTLY like those of the original poster. That's the only point here. Sooner or later we
all will say pretty much the spot on same expression/description as the initial poster.

It's not that they want to stop running...it's just that age and their physical circumstances no
longer are capable of enduring the physical stress of the activity pain free.

We're not all equal mr. arbor and some folks in fact have to hang up the old asics at age 40.
Happens to THOUSANDS of runners every year. A person can actually be imposing non-recoverable damage
onto their physiology by ignoring the possibility that they're now irreversably damaging themeselves
in some way/manner.

look, this ng is not about non-stop unconditional cheerleading. there are serious risk to what we do
(run). just today I posted a thread titled, "A SHOE WITH A STORY" about a great runner who had an
undiagnosed heart condition and died. Guess what. Minus a real thorough physical....any one of us
can fall to the same fate. It's your job as a runner to be informed of all aspects/angles of the
risk associated w/the endeavor.

I repeat....the words in stunning detail characterize spot on the possibility that for this runner
the end is near. I hope I'm wrong, but I could be right. Thousands have to hang it up at a similar
age annually. However what's important is for this person to have a detailed physical and make sure
as they try to again run painfree, they are not imposing irreversable damage onto their body-
physiology.

Good grief....I like to think we're grown adults here and can honestly and frankly discuss the
realities of what we do (run). it's not all upside folks. There are many that argue that we damage
ourselves slowly, daily, as we pound our knees. The point is not whether they are right or wrong.
The point is that this is a forum wherein we can toss out all sides of the matter.....without people
like Mr. Arbor here from declaring my words as non-sense and or sensoring my words.

global.

In article said:

Then I'll do some steady easy walking/jogging. It's true, the mind remembers the old pace like it
was yesterday but the body doesn't!

It's probably worth adding that my enthusiasm, as I started to rapidly approach respectable paces
ultimately led to injury. This happened some time around the point where I was doing track work and
got down to mid-20s for 5k, and was starting to feel like a competitive runner.

My running club includes many former competitive runners who made "comebacks", and some of them had
similar experiences with their comebacks -- pushing too hard in their enthusiasm to return to fast
times, and getting injured.

The injuries don't necessarily happen early in the "comeback". For example, when I made my
"comeback", I started slowly on the treadmill at very steady paces. It was only when I realised that
I was going to be able to run *fast* again that I jumped into the training that ultimately cost
about 6 months of good training. This "training" included running 5k at about race pace daily for
most of a week, trackwork several times a week, rapid jumps in milage, etc. You name the training
error, I was doing it. By the way, it's only about a year later that the achilles tendon problems
have completely faded.

One thing I'd recommend is posting your training logs on this newsgroup in the weekly training
thread. People will tend to draw attention to anything that looks like an obvious training error,
and the act of reporting in itself can provide an incentive to "behave sensibly" -- that is, you're
less likely to do anything really dumb in training if you're going to explain your training to
someone else.

All the best, and hope to hear more from you.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Ask yourself the question...what makes the once passionate runner stop? at age

40?

Uh, let's see here. Ummmm... "bad advice?"

Quoted message said:

The point is that this is a forum wherein we can toss out all sides of the

matter.....without people like Mr. Arbor here from declaring my words as non-sense and or
sensoring my words.

Easy now, no one suggested you should be "sensored." However, if you expect measured commentary,
offer measured advice. This may be merely usenet, but some of us do take it to heart.

I note now that "Zola" herself has weighed in once again:

"It seems like I have a lot to consider but one thing's for certain.... I won't give up!"

"After all, it's only one little area that's the problem so whether it's too much too soon or the
shoes I'm sure I'll get to the bottom of it!"

That's the spirit.

And... QED, LanceAndrew.