Double Top Tubes?

"Gary Mishler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:UOEPb.117922$8H.278883@attbi_s03...

Quoted message said:

I just returned from a business trip to Mexico City and I noticed that

many

Quoted message said:

of the bikes that the locals were riding around town had two top tubes.

One

Quoted message said:

was located in the conventional location and a second located parallel but a couple of inches
below the first.

Has anyone ever heard of this before? Or, know why?

TIA, Mish

I'm going to take a guess that the steel used for the tubing is probably inexpensive therefore
somewhat 'softer' than what you would find in a 'regular' bike, and that these bikes take a hell of
a beating over their lifetimes and are made a little stouter than 'regular' bikes. I also think that
more than a few of these bikes are used commercially, deliveries, small freight transport etc. Did
you see a brand name on any of them?

some of the old raleigh roadsters had the same design - i think sheldon has some pics.

why? marginal increase in stiffness. mechanically pointless if the single tubes are selected
appropriately, but esthetically quite funky.

Gary Mishler said:

I just returned from a business trip to Mexico City and I noticed that many of the bikes that the
locals were riding around town had two top tubes. One was located in the conventional location and
a second located parallel but a couple of inches below the first.

Has anyone ever heard of this before? Or, know why?

TIA, Mish

"Dave Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Gary Mishler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:UOEPb.117922$8H.278883@attbi_s03...

Quoted message said:

I just returned from a business trip to Mexico City and I noticed that

many

Quoted message said:

of the bikes that the locals were riding around town had two top tubes.

One

Quoted message said:

was located in the conventional location and a second located parallel

but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a couple of inches below the first.

Has anyone ever heard of this before? Or, know why?

TIA, Mish

I'm going to take a guess that the steel used for the tubing is probably inexpensive therefore
somewhat 'softer' than what you would find in a 'regular' bike, and that these bikes take a hell
of a beating over their lifetimes and are made a little stouter than 'regular' bikes. I also think
that more than a few of these bikes are used commercially, deliveries,

small

Quoted message said:

freight transport etc. Did you see a brand name on any of them?

I found a picture here: planeta.commexbike.htmlOpen ↗

"Dave Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qt6dnZsLvJ9EupLdRVn-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Gary Mishler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:UOEPb.117922$8H.278883@attbi_s03...

Quoted message said:

I just returned from a business trip to Mexico City and I noticed that

many

Quoted message said:

of the bikes that the locals were riding around town had two top

tubes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One

Quoted message said:

was located in the conventional location and a second located parallel

but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a couple of inches below the first.

Has anyone ever heard of this before? Or, know why?

TIA, Mish

I'm going to take a guess that the steel used for the tubing is probably inexpensive therefore
somewhat 'softer' than what you would find in a 'regular' bike, and that these bikes take a hell
of a beating over their lifetimes and are made a little stouter than 'regular' bikes. I also

think

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that more than a few of these bikes are used commercially, deliveries,

small

Quoted message said:

freight transport etc. Did you see a brand name on any of them?

I found a picture here: planeta.commexbike.htmlOpen ↗

And here: benotto.com.mxprincipal.htmlOpen ↗ then click on 'Otros Modelos' and then
click on the R28.

"Dave Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Gary Mishler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:UOEPb.117922$8H.278883@attbi_s03...
> I just returned from a business trip to Mexico City and I noticed

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

many
> of the bikes that the locals were riding around town had two top

tubes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One
> was located in the conventional location and a second located

parallel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but

Quoted message said:

> a couple of inches below the first.
>
> Has anyone ever heard of this before? Or, know why?
>
> TIA, Mish
>
>
I'm going to take a guess that the steel used for the tubing is

probably

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

inexpensive therefore somewhat 'softer' than what you would find in a 'regular' bike, and that
these bikes take a hell of a beating over

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lifetimes and are made a little stouter than 'regular' bikes. I also

think

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that more than a few of these bikes are used commercially, deliveries,

small

Quoted message said:

freight transport etc. Did you see a brand name on any of them?

I found a picture here: planeta.commexbike.htmlOpen ↗

And here: benotto.com.mxprincipal.htmlOpen ↗ then click on 'Otros Modelos' and
then click on the R28.

Yes very much like these, except not near as nice - much more "used". I never saw any that were
actually being used to haul anything like the paperboy pictured showed. The ones I saw were just
being ridden by people.

The smog is so thick in that city (plus the high elevation) that I can't imagine trying to cycle at
all, let alone while carrying a load. Yuck.

Thanks for the info, Mish

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 19:37:45 -0800, "Dave Thompson"

may have said:

And here: benotto.com.mxprincipal.htmlOpen ↗ then click on 'Otros Modelos' and then
click on the R28.

Interesting. It appears that the rear brakes are mounted to the chainstays.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

"Gary Mishler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:0mIPb.118996$8H.300612@attbi_s03...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:s86dnTGTfc8U2JLdRVn-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> "Gary Mishler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:UOEPb.117922$8H.278883@attbi_s03...
> > I just returned from a business trip to Mexico City and I noticed

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> many
> > of the bikes that the locals were riding around town had two top

tubes.

Quoted message said:

> One
> > was located in the conventional location and a second located

parallel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but
> > a couple of inches below the first.
> >
> > Has anyone ever heard of this before? Or, know why?
> >
> > TIA, Mish
> >
> >
> I'm going to take a guess that the steel used for the tubing is

probably

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> inexpensive therefore somewhat 'softer' than what you would find in

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 'regular' bike, and that these bikes take a hell of a beating over

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> lifetimes and are made a little stouter than 'regular' bikes. I also

think

Quoted message said:

> that more than a few of these bikes are used commercially,

deliveries,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

small
> freight transport etc. Did you see a brand name on any of them?
>
I found a picture here: planeta.commexbike.htmlOpen ↗

And here: benotto.com.mxprincipal.htmlOpen ↗ then click

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

'Otros Modelos' and then click on the R28.

Yes very much like these, except not near as nice - much more "used". I never saw any that were
actually being used to haul anything like the paperboy pictured showed. The ones I saw were just
being ridden by

people.

Quoted message said:

The smog is so thick in that city (plus the high elevation) that I can't imagine trying to cycle
at all, let alone while carrying a load. Yuck.

Thanks for the info, Mish

I used to live in Mexico City.Even though smoggy, it can be very beautiful. I've seen bicyles with
'sidecars' delivering 6, 5 gallon jugs of 'purified water' to hotels and restaurants. That's 240 (!)
pounds of water plus the weight of the rider. I was surprised that the bikes didn't have bridge
trusses welded on for strength and look like the Eiffel Tower.

"Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dave Thompson' may have said:

And here: benotto.com.mxprincipal.htmlOpen ↗ then click

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

'Otros Modelos' and then click on the R28.

Interesting. It appears that the rear brakes are mounted to the chainstays.

I didn't notice that. It looks like the brakes are rod operated and the rear brake pushes against
the inside of the rim surface near the spokes. Whic would make operational sense using rods instead
of cables. And look at the price, $1017.00, which in pesos is slightly over $100.00 US!

"Dave Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KqmdnVTgvNLE35LdRVn-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qt6dnZsLvJ9EupLdRVn-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Gary Mishler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:UOEPb.117922$8H.278883@attbi_s03...
> I just returned from a business trip to Mexico City and I noticed that

many

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> of the bikes that the locals were riding around town had two top

tubes. One

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> was located in the conventional location and a second located parallel

but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> a couple of inches below the first.
>
> Has anyone ever heard of this before? Or, know why?
>
> TIA, Mish
>
>
I'm going to take a guess that the steel used for the tubing is probably inexpensive therefore
somewhat 'softer' than what you would find in a 'regular' bike, and that these bikes take a
hell of a beating over their lifetimes and are made a little stouter than 'regular' bikes. I
also

think

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that more than a few of these bikes are used commercially, deliveries,

small

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

freight transport etc. Did you see a brand name on any of them?

I found a picture here: planeta.commexbike.htmlOpen ↗

And here: benotto.com.mxprincipal.htmlOpen ↗ then click on 'Otros Modelos' and
then click on the R28.

Dear Dave,

That's a weird frame, all right, with two parallel top tubes. But I'm puzzled by what kind of stress
the Mexican designers are trying to resist.

Do top tubes buckle first?

I can't help wondering whether this double-top-tube design is just wishful thinking, the sort of
thing that Jobst Brandt sometimes points out when he writes about "new" designs that turn out to
have been tried and abandoned a century ago.

The 1916 Morley Bicycle catalogue shows some similar double-top-tube designs:

fixedgeargallery.com04.jpgOpen ↗ fixedgeargallery.com05.jpgOpen ↗
fixedgeargallery.com06.jpgOpen ↗

Thumbnails of the whole catalogue are at:
fixedgeargallery.commorleyOpen ↗

But no modern mountain bikes facing heavy bashing or tandems carrying heavy loads use this
design, do they?

Carl Fogel

"Carl Fogel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Dave Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KqmdnVTgvNLE35LdRVn-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qt6dnZsLvJ9EupLdRVn-
[email hidden]...
>
> "Gary Mishler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:UOEPb.117922$8H.278883@attbi_s03...
> > I just returned from a business trip to Mexico City and I noticed

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

many

Quoted message said:

> > of the bikes that the locals were riding around town had two top

tubes. One

Quoted message said:

> > was located in the conventional location and a second located

parallel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but

Quoted message said:

> > a couple of inches below the first.
> >
> > Has anyone ever heard of this before? Or, know why?
> >
> > TIA, Mish
> >
> >
> I'm going to take a guess that the steel used for the tubing is

probably

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> inexpensive therefore somewhat 'softer' than what you would find in

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 'regular' bike, and that these bikes take a hell of a beating over

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> lifetimes and are made a little stouter than 'regular' bikes. I also

think

Quoted message said:

> that more than a few of these bikes are used commercially,

deliveries,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

small

Quoted message said:

> freight transport etc. Did you see a brand name on any of them?
>
I found a picture here: planeta.commexbike.htmlOpen ↗

And here: benotto.com.mxprincipal.htmlOpen ↗ then click

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

'Otros Modelos' and then click on the R28.

Dear Dave,

That's a weird frame, all right, with two parallel top tubes. But I'm puzzled by what kind of
stress the Mexican designers are trying to resist.

Do top tubes buckle first?

I can't help wondering whether this double-top-tube design is just wishful thinking, the sort of
thing that Jobst Brandt sometimes points out when he writes about "new" designs that turn out to
have been tried and abandoned a century ago.

The 1916 Morley Bicycle catalogue shows some similar double-top-tube designs:

fixedgeargallery.com04.jpgOpen ↗ fixedgeargallery.com05.jpgOpen ↗
fixedgeargallery.com06.jpgOpen ↗

Thumbnails of the whole catalogue are at:
fixedgeargallery.commorleyOpen ↗

But no modern mountain bikes facing heavy bashing or tandems carrying heavy loads use this design,
do they?

Carl Fogel

Carl: I honestly don't know why they build them like that. I can think of a couple of marketing
reasons; to set themselves apart from the others, or to give the appearance of extra strength.

Did'ja see the angles on the seat and head tubes. Boy, talk about being laid back!

Gary Mishler said:

I just returned from a business trip to Mexico City and I noticed that many of the bikes that the
locals were riding around town had two top tubes. One was located in the conventional location and
a second located parallel but a couple of inches below the first.

Has anyone ever heard of this before? Or, know why?

It was offered as a "heavy duty frame" option by Raleigh many years ago on the DL-1 roadster. It
remained popular in some markets for along time, being perceived as "stronger".

When lots of bike manufacturers still offered a Roadster, (and those were almost universally Raleigh-
interchangeable) I noticed that was listed as an option by several. Our Japanese export guy in the
seventies said he sold double top tubes to only one customer- in Guatemala.

Have youever seen buckled top and down tubes from a front crash? I suppose this might be an
overreaction to that.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 19:37:45 -0800, "Dave Thompson"

may have said:

And here: benotto.com.mxprincipal.htmlOpen ↗ then click on 'Otros Modelos' and
then click on the R28.

Werehatrack said:

Interesting. It appears that the rear brakes are mounted to the chainstays.

That's standard on a Roaster: yellowjersey.orgEASTMAN.HTMLOpen ↗

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

-snip- Dave Thompson wrote

Quoted message said:

Carl: I honestly don't know why they build them like that. I can think of a couple of marketing
reasons; to set themselves apart from the others, or to give the appearance of extra strength.

Did'ja see the angles on the seat and head tubes. Boy, talk about being laid back!

Again, standard Roadster geometry. These are absolutely the most popular bicycles ever made...by a
very wide margin.

You guys should get around more.
c.f. Carl's post about XMart bikes, sneakers, etc.
--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

jim beam said:

some of the old raleigh roadsters had the same design - i think sheldon has some pics.

why? marginal increase in stiffness. mechanically pointless if the single tubes are selected
appropriately, but esthetically quite funky.

quite common, as it is very easy to produce, using the same lugs and two identical toptubes. Some
'custom'builders of touring bikes over here still do it!
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL www.m-gineering.nl

A Muzi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Werehatrack said:

Interesting. It appears that the rear brakes are mounted to the chainstays.

That's standard on a Roaster: yellowjersey.orgEASTMAN.HTMLOpen ↗

Really? I'd have thought brakes on a chicken were as rare as hen's teeth!

(Sorry)

Peter Storey

Carl Fogel said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> I just returned from a business trip to Mexico City and I noticed that many of the bikes that
>> the locals were riding around town had two top tubes. One was located in the conventional
>> location and a second located parallel but a couple of inches below the first.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Has anyone ever heard of this before? Or, know why?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I'm going to take a guess that the steel used for the tubing is probably inexpensive therefore
> somewhat 'softer' than what you would find in a 'regular' bike, and that these bikes take a
> hell of a beating over their lifetimes and are made a little stouter than 'regular' bikes. I
> also think that more than a few of these bikes are used commercially, deliveries, small freight
> transport etc. Did you see a brand name on any of them?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I found a picture here:

planeta.commexbike.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And here:

benotto.com.mxprincipal.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

then click on 'Otros Modelos' and then click on the R28.

Quoted message said:

That's a weird frame, all right, with two parallel top tubes. But I'm puzzled by what kind of
stress the Mexican designers are trying to resist.

Quoted message said:

Do top tubes buckle first?

No but when you only have one size tube available for frames you can double the torsional stiffness
of the frame by adding a parallel tube. This was common in the 1930-40's in the USA. Then there was
a long time when few bicycles were built in the USA and 'English' bicycles were sold to those who
insisted on going against the American idiom and riding bike. About that time a resurgence of racing
grew on French and Italian racing frames and you see to what that lead.

Quoted message said:

I can't help wondering whether this double-top-tube design is just wishful thinking, the sort of
thing that Jobst Brandt sometimes points out when he writes about "new" designs that turn out to
have been tried and abandoned a century ago.

Not at all. There is method to this madness.

Quoted message said:

The 1916 Morley Bicycle catalogue shows some similar double-top-tube designs:

fixedgeargallery.com04.jpgOpen ↗ fixedgeargallery.com05.jpgOpen ↗
fixedgeargallery.com06.jpgOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Thumbnails of the whole catalogue are at:

fixedgeargallery.commorleyOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

But no modern mountain bikes facing heavy bashing or tandems carrying heavy loads use this design,
do they?

We can get good frame tubing in a wide selection of diameters and wall thicknesses today.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Gary Mishler said:

I just returned from a business trip to Mexico City and I noticed that many of the bikes that the
locals were riding around town had two top tubes. One was located in the conventional location and
a second located parallel but a couple of inches below the first.

Has anyone ever heard of this before? Or, know why?

It's occasionally done by framebuilders for abnormally large frames. I don't know why it's popular
in Mexico.

"Gary Mishler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<UOEPb.117922$8H.278883@attbi_s03>...

Quoted message said:

I just returned from a business trip to Mexico City and I noticed that many of the bikes that the
locals were riding around town had two top tubes. One was located in the conventional location and
a second located parallel but a couple of inches below the first.

Has anyone ever heard of this before? Or, know why?

TIA, Mish

They are very common in the UK as Royal Mail delivery bikes for postmen often have double top tubes
just as you describe (though many other designs are also in use).

?Perhaps they add some siffness to counteract the effect of carrying heavy loads up front?

I know that the Royal Mail "exports" its cast off bikes to the third world, particularly Africa, so
I would expect to see some of these there too.

Andrew Webster

Quoted message said:

It's occasionally done by framebuilders for abnormally large frames. I don't know why it's popular
in Mexico.

I've been told by those in the Mexican bike industry that the origin was a shipment of double top
tube bikes from England destined for the far east that landed in Mexico by mistake. The sturdy heavy
load bearing nature of the frame and the indestructible rod brakes made them popular.

Sadly, in my travels in Mexico over 3 decades I have watched them slowly replaced by the
mountain bike.

Sad to note as well is that almost all bike production has left Mexico for the far east. Virtually
all Benottos, Turbos, Mercurios, etc. are imported.