General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Latest path moan

Simon Challands · 2004-01-16T08:10:10+00:00

I'm at the footpath moaning thing again - you've been warned, so if you got sick of me the last time here's your chance to stop now! They are on to low level paths now (I've seen this happen before, but one today irritated me immensley). It's mostly through woodland, with a stretch across an open field, in the Lakes. All across the field and the first stretch of woodland is a raised almost road-like surface (very tightly compacted small gravel). Looks awful, although time will probably blend the edges a little. I've heard it said the rest of the path (Lingholm, near Keswick, to the field) will also get done. There was a patch at the end of the field that used to get pretty muddy, but IIRC that was sorted out some years ago. The only conclusion is that some- one thinks such obviously made surfaces, nice and smooth, are better for footpaths than something that looks like a natural track. There is no erosion issue, unless you count getting a bit of mud on your feet. It can't be for the dubious explanation of disabled access either; there's still a stone slab bridge that's impossible to get a wheelchair across. No, it can only be either pandering to the type of city visitor who hates paths that don't look like they belong in their local park (instead of the more sensible type of city visitor who's trying to escape that sort of thing), or someone with far too much time on their hands. Can't be the NT this time, although it could be the National Park trying to put pressure on the landowner (Lingholm estate, I think). -- Simon Challands, creator of The Acorn Elite Pages: http://elite.acornarcade.com/ Three Dimensional Encounters: http://www.3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk/

Started by Simon Challands · 16 January 2004 · Last activity 27 January 2004 · 35 posts · 1,387 views

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01 / Original postLatest path moanSimon Challands · 16 Jan 2004 02 / This pagePosts 1–20Page 1 of 2 · chronological order 03 / Latest replyPost #35Paul Rooney · 27 Jan 2004

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Original section: General fitness, health and nutrition
Published: 16 January 2004
Last activity: 27 January 2004
Original author: Simon Challands
Posts: 35
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Original post
Simon Challands
Archived post

16 January 2004, 08:10 UTC #1

I'm at the footpath moaning thing again - you've been warned, so if you got sick of me the last time
here's your chance to stop now!
They are on to low level paths now (I've seen this happen before, but one today irritated me
immensley). It's mostly through woodland, with a stretch across an open field, in the Lakes. All
across the field and the first stretch of woodland is a raised almost road-like surface (very
tightly compacted small gravel). Looks awful, although time will probably blend the edges a little.
I've heard it said the rest of the path (Lingholm, near Keswick, to the field) will also get done.
There was a patch at the end of the field that used to get pretty muddy, but IIRC that was sorted
out some years ago. The only conclusion is that some- one thinks such obviously made surfaces,
nice and smooth, are better for footpaths than something that looks like a natural track. There is
no erosion issue, unless you count getting a bit of mud on your feet. It can't be for the dubious
explanation of disabled access either; there's still a stone slab bridge that's impossible to get
a wheelchair across. No, it can only be either pandering to the type of city visitor who hates
paths that don't look like they belong in their local park (instead of the more sensible type of
city visitor who's trying to escape that sort of thing), or someone with far too much time on
their hands.
Can't be the NT this time, although it could be the National Park trying to put pressure on the
landowner (Lingholm estate, I think).
--
Simon Challands, creator of The Acorn Elite Pages: elite.acornarcade.comelite.acornarcade.com Three Dimensional
Encounters: 3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk

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Chris Gilbert
Archived post

16 January 2004, 08:10 UTC #2

"Simon Challands" wrote
Quoted message said:
No, it can only be either pandering to the type of city visitor who hates paths that don't look
like they belong in their local park (instead of the more sensible type of city visitor who's
trying to escape that sort of thing),

or
Quoted message said:
someone with far too much time on their hands.
Ever thought that it might have somethig to do with Access For All ? Local authorities are under a
lot of pressure to make thier amenities inclusive. If this means upgrading a small number of low
level, flat paths so that they can take a wheelchair then its churlish to say the least to object
when there are many thousands of square miles of upland region that are already easily accessible to
the able bodied.
Chris
--
Cressbrook on the web
cressbrook.netcressbrook.net

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Pete Bland
Archived post

16 January 2004, 08:10 UTC #3

Simon Challands said:
It's mostly through woodland, with a stretch across an open field, in the Lakes. All across the
field and the first stretch of woodland is a raised almost road-like surface (very tightly
compacted small gravel)... I've heard it said the rest of the path (Lingholm, near Keswick, to the
field) will also get done.
If this is the Lingholm on the W. side of Derwentwater, it is only a couple of kms from Keswick
(less from Portinscale), is on the line of the Cumbria Way and is fairly low lying. Even if it is
not suitable for wheelchairs it seems like a prime candidate for making up the surface to something
fairly durable.
As Chris says, there is considerable pressure on local authorities to make some of the path network
more accessible to people with mobility problems - which doesn't *have* to mean being a wheelchair
user. It also doesn't mean that we can expect handrails on Striding Edge or Crib Goch! The National
Park has had a programme called 'Miles without stiles' working towards this end - some info on their
website, though a bit hard to find.
From the point of view of a hill walker who enjoys rough country, I don't begrudge some path
improvements closer to towns and villages if it helps people get out on foot where they might have
had problems previously. I think we have to accept that in terms of total visitor numbers the 'hard
walkers' are very much in a minority.
Quoted message said:
Looks awful, although time will probably blend the edges a little.
I'm sure you will hardly notice it after 18 months or so if you didn't already know it had
been improved.
--
Pete Bland

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Rob
Archived post

16 January 2004, 08:10 UTC #4

"Simon Challands" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
I'm at the footpath moaning thing again - you've been warned, so if you got sick of me the last
time here's your chance to stop now!
They are on to low level paths now (I've seen this happen before, but one today irritated me
immensley). It's mostly through woodland, with a

stretch
Quoted message said:
across an open field, in the Lakes. All across the field and the first stretch of woodland is a
raised almost road-like surface (very tightly compacted small gravel). Looks awful, although time
will probably blend

the
Quoted message said:
edges a little. I've heard it said the rest of the path (Lingholm, near Keswick, to the field)
will also get done.
There was a patch at the end of the field that used to get pretty muddy,

but
Quoted message said:
IIRC that was sorted out some years ago. The only conclusion is that some- one thinks such
obviously made surfaces, nice and smooth, are better for footpaths than something that looks like
a natural track. There is no erosion issue, unless you count getting a bit of mud on your feet. It

can't
Quoted message said:
be for the dubious explanation of disabled access either; there's still a stone slab bridge that's
impossible to get a wheelchair across. No, it can only be either pandering to the type of city
visitor who hates paths that don't look like they belong in their local park (instead of the more
sensible type of city visitor who's trying to escape that sort of thing),

or
Quoted message said:
someone with far too much time on their hands.
Can't be the NT this time, although it could be the National Park trying

to
Quoted message said:
put pressure on the landowner (Lingholm estate, I think).
--
Simon Challands, creator of The Acorn Elite Pages: elite.acornarcade.comelite.acornarcade.com Three Dimensional
Encounters: 3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk
How can a track be natural? (3rd paragraph)

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Peter Ward
Archived post

16 January 2004, 08:10 UTC #5

Simon, don't assume that "disabled access" just means wheelchair access. There are a lot of people
with impaired mobility who can get out and about provided they have a reasonable surface to walk on.
Do take these people into consideration.
Regards
Peter
Simon Challands <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
I'm at the footpath moaning thing again - you've been warned, so if you got sick of me the last
time here's your chance to stop now!
They are on to low level paths now (I've seen this happen before, but one today irritated me
immensley). It's mostly through woodland, with a

stretch
Quoted message said:
across an open field, in the Lakes. All across the field and the first stretch of woodland is a
raised almost road-like surface (very tightly compacted small gravel). Looks awful, although time
will probably blend

the
Quoted message said:
edges a little. I've heard it said the rest of the path (Lingholm, near Keswick, to the field)
will also get done.
There was a patch at the end of the field that used to get pretty muddy,

but
Quoted message said:
IIRC that was sorted out some years ago. The only conclusion is that some- one thinks such
obviously made surfaces, nice and smooth, are better for footpaths than something that looks like
a natural track. There is no erosion issue, unless you count getting a bit of mud on your feet. It

can't
Quoted message said:
be for the dubious explanation of disabled access either; there's still a stone slab bridge that's
impossible to get a wheelchair across. No, it can only be either pandering to the type of city
visitor who hates paths that don't look like they belong in their local park (instead of the more
sensible type of city visitor who's trying to escape that sort of thing),

or
Quoted message said:
someone with far too much time on their hands.
Can't be the NT this time, although it could be the National Park trying

to
Quoted message said:
put pressure on the landowner (Lingholm estate, I think).
--
Simon Challands, creator of The Acorn Elite Pages: elite.acornarcade.comelite.acornarcade.com Three Dimensional
Encounters: 3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk

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Gordon
Archived post

16 January 2004, 08:10 UTC #6

Chris Gilbert <[email hidden]> wrote
Quoted message said:
"Simon Challands" wrote
Quoted message said:
No, it can only be either pandering to the type of city visitor who hates paths that don't look
like they belong in their local park (instead of the more sensible type of city visitor who's
trying to escape that sort of thing),

or
Quoted message said:
someone with far too much time on their hands.
Ever thought that it might have somethig to do with Access For All ? Local authorities are under a
lot of pressure to make thier amenities inclusive. If this means upgrading a small number of low
level, flat paths so that they can take a wheelchair then its churlish to say the least to object
when there are many thousands of square miles of upland region that are already easily accessible
to the able bodied.

I agree in principle, and in fact I took my wife out in a chair when she was incapacitated, but even
the flattened gravel paths were too rough without large pneumatic tyres. Only tarmac would be
suitable for someone with spinal damage.
--
Gordon

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Gordon
Archived post

16 January 2004, 08:10 UTC #7

Simon Challands <[email hidden]> wrote
Quoted message said:

Even if that was the reason, and they were used, I still wouldn't agree, and I think I still
wouldn't agree if you cut my legs off and stuck me in a wheelchair.

We wouldn't ask you - we'd ask a disabled person. ;-)
--
Gordon

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Nick Kew
Archived post

16 January 2004, 08:10 UTC #8

In article <[email hidden]>, one of infinite monkeys
at the keyboard of Gordon said:
I agree in principle, and in fact I took my wife out in a chair when she was incapacitated, but
even the flattened gravel paths were too rough without large pneumatic tyres. Only tarmac would be
suitable for someone with spinal damage.
There are a lot of people less disabled than that who nevertheless benefit from flat, easy terrain
where they can manage a short walk.
How long are hip operation waiting lists these days?
--
Hutton: Nobody is asking why Blair was so keen to have a damaging inquiry into a minor side-issue of
going to war.
So, what has he successfully deflected media attention from?

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Peter
Archived post

16 January 2004, 08:10 UTC #9

"Simon Challands" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
I'm at the footpath moaning thing again - you've been warned, so if you got sick of me the last
time here's your chance to stop now!
They've ruined what used to be a nice little wet day spin from theBrotherswater to Patterdale and
back too...
Peter
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (grisoft.comgrisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.558 / Virus Database: 350 - Release Date: 07/01/2004

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Simon Challands
Archived post

16 January 2004, 08:11 UTC #10

In message <[email hidden]>
Chris Gilbert said:
"Simon Challands" wrote
Quoted message said:
No, it can only be either pandering to the type of city visitor who hates paths that don't look
like they belong in their local park (instead of the more sensible type of city visitor who's
trying to escape that sort of thing),

or
Quoted message said:
someone with far too much time on their hands.
Ever thought that it might have somethig to do with Access For All ? Local authorities are under a
lot of pressure to make thier amenities inclusive. If this means upgrading a small number of low
level, flat paths so that they can take a wheelchair then its churlish to say the least to object
when there are many thousands of square miles of upland region that are already easily accessible
to the able bodied.
If you read the post you'll see that I said there is a bridge in the middle of the built section
that is impossible to get a wheelchair across. There is also a bit of a hill that would require a
lot of effort to get one up (just after the aforementioned bridge, oddly enough).
I know of another low-level path (Brandlehow woods) where a lot of its character has been destroyed
to make a boring, smooth surface just for this reason, and I have never seen a wheelchair on it.
Even if that was the reason, and they were used, I still wouldn't agree, and I think I still
wouldn't agree if you cut my legs off and stuck me in a wheelchair.
--
Simon Challands, creator of The Acorn Elite Pages: elite.acornarcade.comelite.acornarcade.com Three Dimensional
Encounters: 3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk

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Simon Challands
Archived post

16 January 2004, 08:11 UTC #11

In message <[email hidden]>
Rob said:

How can a track be natural? (3rd paragraph)
Very funny, I'm sure you know what I meant (i.e. one where the surface has not been deliberately
constructed). In this case some of it never was, but it was far less obvious, and I'm sure that's
not entirely down to wear and tear.
--
Simon Challands, creator of The Acorn Elite Pages: elite.acornarcade.comelite.acornarcade.com Three Dimensional
Encounters: 3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk

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Paul Saunders
Archived post

16 January 2004, 08:11 UTC #12

Rob said:
How can a track be natural? (3rd paragraph)
Easy. Nature creates creatures. Creatures do what comes naturally. Tracks are created.
What bugs me is the way humans are so often considered to be somehow separate from nature. We
aren't. Technically everything we do is natural, because we naturally evolved to do these things. So
we make stuff? So do other animals. Termite mounds, natural? Bird's nests, natural?
I guess if we want to make a practical distinction then I'd say that any changes that humans make
"by design" are therefore not natural, whereas anything we do unintentionally, like eroding a track
by simply walking along the ground, is natural. Just as many other creates create tracks by simply
walking along the ground.
Only when we start laying down slabs of rock in an orderly pattern or laying down tarmac does it
become unnatural. Arguably.
Paul
--
Calendars for 2004
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukcal.html
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.uk
photosig.comuserphotos

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Simon Challands
Archived post

16 January 2004, 08:11 UTC #13

In message <[email hidden]>
Fran said:
[email hidden] said...
Quoted message said:
Only tarmac would be suitable for
Quoted message said:
someone with spinal damage.
There are a lot of people less disabled than that who nevertheless benefit from flat, easy
terrain where they can manage a short walk.

Not to mention people with young children...
We're talking about paths I used to run all over the place on as a young child, probably from not
that long after I was able to walk.
The issue for me (well, another of them) is that paths like that belong in city parks, which makes
it sound like someone has taken "national park" too literally. Smoothing the rough edges is a bad
move, it's just trying to "tidy up", by creating something that doesn't look too far off a tarmaced
surface. I honestly can't understand anyone who doesn't find it an aesthetic calamity, whatever
benefits it may provide.
--
Simon Challands, creator of The Acorn Elite Pages: elite.acornarcade.comelite.acornarcade.com Three Dimensional
Encounters: 3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk

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Fran
Archived post

16 January 2004, 08:11 UTC #14

[email hidden] said...
Quoted message said:
Only tarmac would be suitable for
Quoted message said:
someone with spinal damage.
There are a lot of people less disabled than that who nevertheless benefit from flat, easy terrain
where they can manage a short walk.

Not to mention people with young children...
--
Fran If you need my email address please ask.

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Andyp
Archived post

16 January 2004, 08:11 UTC #15

"Simon Challands" <[email hidden]> wrote
Quoted message said:
The issue for me (well, another of them) is that paths like that belong in city parks, which makes
it sound like someone has taken "national park"

too
Quoted message said:
literally. Smoothing the rough edges is a bad move, it's just trying to "tidy up", by creating
something that doesn't look too far off a tarmaced surface. I honestly can't understand anyone who
doesn't find it an aesthetic calamity, whatever benefits it may provide.
I must admit I found it an aesthetic calamity as you put it when Forest Enterprise turned one of my
favourite paths into a smooth cycle track. But on the other hand every time I see a 2 year old
having fun freewheeling down it I'm happy they're having the opportunity to do so. And my mum likes
it better with her high heels.

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W. D. Grey
Archived post

25 January 2004, 23:05 UTC #16

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> writes
Quoted message said:
Only when we start laying down slabs of rock in an orderly pattern or laying down tarmac does it
become unnatural. Arguably.
Arguably seeing as we are animals like other creature albeit with superior intellect, then it is
that superior intellect that gives us the notion to make things easier to walk on. Therefore a
"natural" act for us humans.
Is it natural for a crow to build a nest using bits of baler twine and copper wire ? Of course it is
- it uses what it can to do the job it wants to do. A nest comprising such unusual nest building
material was found at the Baglan Hydro Carbons Plant.
--
Bill Grey billboy.co.ukbillboy.co.uk

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W. D. Grey
Archived post

25 January 2004, 23:05 UTC #17

In article <[email hidden]>, Peter <[email hidden]> writes
Quoted message said:

"Simon Challands" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
I'm at the footpath moaning thing again - you've been warned, so if you got sick of me the last
time here's your chance to stop now!
They've ruined what used to be a nice little wet day spin from theBrotherswater to Patterdale and
back too...
Peter

I don't know the area, but do you have to walk on the path?
--
Bill Grey billboy.co.ukbillboy.co.uk

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Craven Birds
Archived post

25 January 2004, 23:05 UTC #18

"W. D. Grey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
In article <[email hidden]>, Peter <[email hidden]> writes
Quoted message said:

"Simon Challands" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
I'm at the footpath moaning thing again - you've been warned, so if you got sick of me the last
time here's your chance to stop now!
They've ruined what used to be a nice little wet day spin from theBrotherswater to Patterdale and
back too...
Peter

I don't know the area, but do you have to walk on the path?
Yep, unless you want to walk on the road :-(
--
Craven Birds
Bird sightings based around 'Craven' Skipton, North Yorks. cravenbirds.mysite.freeserve.comcravenbirds.mysite.freeserve.com
freewebs.combirding mysite.freeserve.comcravenbirds

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Gordon
Archived post

26 January 2004, 00:05 UTC #19

W. D. Grey <[email hidden]> wrote
Quoted message said:
In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> writes
Quoted message said:
Only when we start laying down slabs of rock in an orderly pattern or laying down tarmac does it
become unnatural. Arguably.
Arguably seeing as we are animals like other creature albeit with superior intellect, then it is
that superior intellect that gives us the notion to make things easier to walk on. Therefore a
"natural" act for us humans.
Is it natural for a crow to build a nest using bits of baler twine and copper wire ? Of course it
is - it uses what it can to do the job it wants to do. A nest comprising such unusual nest building
material was found at the Baglan Hydro Carbons Plant.
Of course the cleverer birds now tend to go for bits of discarded carbon fibre. ;-)
--
Gordon

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Paul Saunders
Archived post

26 January 2004, 02:04 UTC #20

W. D. Grey said:
Quoted message said:
Only when we start laying down slabs of rock in an orderly pattern or laying down tarmac does it
become unnatural. Arguably.
Arguably seeing as we are animals like other creature albeit with superior intellect, then it is
that superior intellect that gives us the notion to make things easier to walk on. Therefore a
"natural" act for us humans.
It depends how you define "natural".
Quoted message said:
Is it natural for a crow to build a nest using bits of baler twine and copper wire ?
Is it natural for a crow to build a nest using twigs?
If you define "natural" as meaning something created "by nature" (not animals), i.e. by the laws of
chance and chaos (weather, geology etc.) then a nest is not natural, it's a creation by an animal.
Animals may be part of nature, but what they create is by their own design, not by "nature's design"
(i.e. random).
Of course the other argument is that since animals are created by nature then anything they create
is also natural, but if we use that argument then everything in the world must be classed as
natural, so the word artificial would cease to have any meaning.
I prefer to differentiate natural and artificial by whether something is created randomly or by
design. So all animal creations, bird's nests, termite mounds etc, are artificial IMO. Anything
created by a creature is designed by that creature, not by nature, even though the creature itself
is the product of nature. Nature does not create bird's nests by random chance.
IMO. All a question of definitions.
Paul
--
Calendars for 2004
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukcal.html
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.uk
photosig.comuserphotos

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