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Paul Saunders said:

Nature does not create bird's nests by random chance.

'Nature' doesn't *do* anything. Birds exist by random chance, and are able, by random chance, to
build nests. So saith science. The usual distinction is between the natural and the man-made.

--

Paul

My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003):

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Paul Rooney said:

'Nature' doesn't *do* anything.

Exactly.

Quoted message said:

Birds exist by random chance, and are able, by random chance, to build nests.

Not exactly random, that's a speciality that they've evolved. I know that evolution depends on
random mutations, but those mutations that work best tend to be most successful, so if building a
nest is what a bird needs to do then random mutations that favour good nest building will tend to
survive through selective breeding (most birds probably prefer to choose good nest builders to be
their mates).

Anyway, whatever the cause, birds decide to build nests, they choose a spot to build them and they
choose the materials to construct them, so a nest is "designed" and results from conscious
decisions.

Quoted message said:

So saith science. The usual distinction is between the natural and the man-made.

It used to be. Man was conveniently considered to be separat from the rest of the natural world by
his ability to create tools. Unfortunately this trait has now been recognised in other species so
the diividing line is not so clear cut anymore.

The bottom line is that the notion that man is somehow different from all the other animals stemmed
from strong religious beliefs, back in the days when it was heresy to consider the idea that man
evolved from other animals. Man was something special, something different from the rest of nature.

Of course that's complete twaddle. Man is an animal just like any other and we're as much a part of
nature as every other animal, so all these man vs. nature arguments are fundamentally flawed. In
principle a human building a computer is no different from a bird building a nest, they only differ
in the level of complexity involved.

Animals make a mess of the world just as humans do, they just make a small mess, not a huge
mess like us.

Paul
--
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Paul Saunders said:

Anyway, whatever the cause, birds decide to build nests, they choose a spot to build them and they
choose the materials to construct them, so a nest is "designed" and results from conscious
decisions.

As far as we know, it isn't - it's just instinct.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So saith science. The usual distinction is between the natural and the man-made.

It used to be. Man was conveniently considered to be separat from the rest of the natural world by
his ability to create tools. Unfortunately this trait has now been recognised in other species so
the diividing line is not so clear cut anymore.

There were/are many more reasons than that for considering man to be separate from nature.

Quoted message said:

The bottom line is that the notion that man is somehow different from all the other animals stemmed
from strong religious beliefs, back in the days when it was heresy to consider the idea that man
evolved from other animals. Man was something special, something different from the rest of nature.

Of course that's complete twaddle.

Well, it may be, but I think that's a minority view!

Quoted message said:

Man is an animal just like any other and we're as much a part of nature as every other animal, so
all these man vs. nature arguments are fundamentally flawed. In principle a human building a
computer is no different from a bird building a nest, they only differ in the level of complexity
involved.

Animals make a mess of the world just as humans do, they just make a small mess, not a huge
mess like us.

Paul

What is 'a mess', except something defined purely in human terms?

--

Paul

My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003):

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Paul Saunders said:

(most birds probably prefer to choose good nest builders to be their mates).

I think this unlikely, but then I have not spent much time observing Friday-night mating rituals in
my back garden :-) Doesn't nest building come after courting and mating ?

"Do you want to come back to my place ?" is probably not often twittered...

[Seriously, a good nest-builder may well successfully rear more offspring, but presuming birds don't
carry a CV around, this won't affect mating choices.]

--
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Mail john rather than nospam...

John Laird said:

Paul Saunders said:

(most birds probably prefer to choose good nest builders to be their mates).

I think this unlikely, but then I have not spent much time observing Friday-night mating rituals in
my back garden :-) Doesn't nest building come after courting and mating ?

"Do you want to come back to my place ?" is probably not often twittered...

[Seriously, a good nest-builder may well successfully rear more offspring, but presuming birds
don't carry a CV around, this won't affect mating choices.]

In some species it is the male that builds the nest as a courtship display. Females will chose the
best nest and mate with the builder.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

Phil Cook said:

John Laird said:

Paul Saunders said:

(most birds probably prefer to choose good nest builders to be their mates).

I think this unlikely, but then I have not spent much time observing Friday-night mating rituals
in my back garden :-) Doesn't nest building come after courting and mating ?

"Do you want to come back to my place ?" is probably not often twittered...

[Seriously, a good nest-builder may well successfully rear more offspring, but presuming birds
don't carry a CV around, this won't affect mating choices.]

In some species it is the male that builds the nest as a courtship display. Females will chose the
best nest and mate with the builder.

I sit (partially) corrected. Afterwards though, do they sleep with his best mate, tell him he was
rubbish at everything, and kick him out of his own nest ?

Just wondering...

--
Money can't buy happiness, but allows a choice of misery.

Mail john rather than nospam...

"Paul Rooney" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyway, whatever the cause, birds decide to build nests, they choose a spot to build them and
they choose the materials to construct them, so a nest is "designed" and results from conscious
decisions.

Quoted message said:

As far as we know, it isn't - it's just instinct.

Each different species of bird is very conservative and traditional when it comes to nest building
aren't they? As a child I used to wonder why a blue [censored] doesn't look at a long tailed [censored]'s nest and
think "Hmm, that all enclosed roof looks nice and snug I reckon I'll build myself one of them. Stuff
the way all the other blue [censored] are doing it". Or why a blackbird doesn't look at a swallow's nest
and think "Hmm, that looks like a good place to build a nest up there away from the cat. I'll be
better off than in the hedge with all the other blackbirds."

AndyP <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Each different species of bird is very conservative and traditional when it comes to nest building
aren't they? As a child I used to wonder why a blue [censored] doesn't look at a long tailed [censored]'s nest
and think "Hmm, that all enclosed roof looks nice and snug I reckon I'll build myself one of them.
Stuff the way all the other blue [censored] are doing it". Or why a blackbird doesn't look at a swallow's
nest and think "Hmm, that looks like a good place to build a nest up there away from the cat. I'll
be better off than in the hedge with all the other blackbirds."

And the cuckoo says: "Nest-building? F*** that for a game of soldiers! I'll lay my eggs in a smaller
bird's nest, and my lads'll see off the other kids"!
--
Gordon

"Gordon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

AndyP <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Each different species of bird is very conservative and traditional when

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

comes to nest building aren't they? As a child I used to wonder why a

blue

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[censored] doesn't look at a long tailed [censored]'s nest and think "Hmm, that all enclosed roof looks nice
and snug I reckon I'll build myself one of them. Stuff the way all the other blue [censored] are doing
it". Or why a blackbird doesn't look at a swallow's nest and think "Hmm, that looks like a good
place to build a nest up there away from the cat. I'll be better off

than

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in the hedge with all the other blackbirds."

And the cuckoo says: "Nest-building? F*** that for a game of soldiers! I'll lay my eggs in a
smaller bird's nest, and my lads'll see off the other kids"!

ROTFL

--
Craven Birds

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"W. D. Grey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Only when we start laying down slabs of rock in an orderly pattern or laying down tarmac does it
become unnatural. Arguably.

Arguably seeing as we are animals like other creature albeit with superior intellect, then it is
that superior intellect that gives us the notion to make things easier to walk on. Therefore a
"natural" act for us humans.

There's something in that I reckon.
--

Bernie Get back on the wagon to reply..

"Craven Birds"

Quoted message said:

Bird sightings based around 'Craven' Skipton, North Yorks.
cravenbirds.mysite.freeserve.comcravenbirds.mysite.freeserve.comOpen ↗ freewebs.combirdingOpen ↗
mysite.freeserve.comcravenbirdsOpen ↗

Whilst we're talking about birds and noting your interest from the above websites, this morning
(about 6am) I heard something that I'd describe as a cross between steam escaping from a whistling
kettle and a girl screaming. Never heard anything like it before but I thought it must probably some
kind of owl although not like the usual noises that tawny owls make and not like the noise I heard a
little owl making a while ago. Is that the kind of calls barn owls make?

"John Laird" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Paul Saunders said:

(most birds probably prefer to choose good nest builders to be their mates).

I think this unlikely, but then I have not spent much time observing Friday-night mating rituals
in my back garden :-) Doesn't nest building come after courting and mating ?

No, nest building can occour before 'courting' and especially mating. Depends on the species.

I think, I'm going to regret this;-)

Quoted message said:

"Do you want to come back to my place ?" is probably not often

twittered...

Quoted message said:

[Seriously, a good nest-builder may well successfully rear more offspring, but presuming birds
don't carry a CV around, this won't affect mating choices.]

With certain bird species their nest building capabilities is their CV to

Been reading too many Ecology books me thinks;-)

--
Craven Birds

Bird sightings based around 'Craven' Skipton, North Yorks. cravenbirds.mysite.freeserve.comcravenbirds.mysite.freeserve.comOpen ↗
freewebs.combirdingOpen ↗ mysite.freeserve.comcravenbirdsOpen ↗

"AndyP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Craven Birds"

Quoted message said:

Bird sightings based around 'Craven' Skipton, North Yorks.
cravenbirds.mysite.freeserve.comcravenbirds.mysite.freeserve.comOpen ↗ freewebs.combirdingOpen ↗
mysite.freeserve.comcravenbirdsOpen ↗

Whilst we're talking about birds and noting your interest from the above websites, this morning
(about 6am) I heard something that I'd describe as

a

Quoted message said:

cross between steam escaping from a whistling kettle and a girl screaming. Never heard anything
like it before but I thought it must probably some

kind

Quoted message said:

of owl although not like the usual noises that tawny owls make and not

like

Quoted message said:

the noise I heard a little owl making a while ago. Is that the kind of calls barn owls make?

Difficult to tell from your description [What a get out;-)]

Try listening to the sounds of the barn owl:

owlpages.comDefault.htmOpen ↗

Then make up your own mind;-)

Around Skipton N. Yorks. & East Lancs. they are pretty rare, so their calls aren't heard that often
+ I'm tone deaf :-0

--
Craven Birds

Bird sightings based around 'Craven' Skipton, North Yorks. cravenbirds.mysite.freeserve.comcravenbirds.mysite.freeserve.comOpen ↗
freewebs.combirdingOpen ↗ mysite.freeserve.comcravenbirdsOpen ↗

"Craven Birds" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Difficult to tell from your description [What a get out;-)]

Try listening to the sounds of the barn owl:

owlpages.comDefault.htmOpen ↗

Then make up your own mind;-)

Thanks, sounded pretty much like the third call down on that page labelled "Typical Adult - Spain"
I reckon. Haven't seen any barn owls since I was a kid. I'll keep an eye out around there next
Monday morning.

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 23:39:00 -0000, "Craven Birds" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

With certain bird species their nest building capabilities is their CV to

With the qualification, of course, that we have no real idea what makes them choose the mate they do
choose, nor what they 'regard' as the best nest, nor how, nor why!

--

Paul

My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003):

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