Ciocc

"Ego sum rex Romanus, et supra grammaticam." - Sigismund
On 29 Dec 2003 19:26:50 -0800, [email hidden] (Scott)

Quoted message said:

John Dacey said:

Sergio SERVADIO said:

It is certainly an abbreviation and no one
can tell for sure not knowing what it is from.

I believe it derives from "ciuccio"; Neapolitan slang for donkey, or in this case, more likely
"jackass" (further euphemised to "joker" for retelling the corporate history).

Naples? What makes you say that? I'm curious why a frame maker would want to name their products
after a jackass.

That's the original meaning, but as applied to people, it has a much broader use whose meaning is
almost entirely contextual. It can be function as a term of endearment (my wife's mother from Naples
has called me this many times) or as mildly disparaging (she couldn't have intended to say something
mean about *me*, could she?). Usage spans such situations as: "Oh you little chooch, you got cookie-
crumbs on the new tablecloth." "What a chooch! He didn't grease the tapers and now he needs a new
crank." "Hey, that chooch of a waiter short-changed me." It seems to sometimes connotes a lack of
cleverness, but just as easily can apply to a someone with a scamp-like or scalawag quality. I
assume it's the latter that Ciocc means to convey.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As used as an all-purpose, mildly derisive slur used to describe a person, the word corrupted
into a single syllable (pronounced "chooch"😉. See one use of the word from Mario Puzo (The
Godfather) in the account here (middle of the page):
randomhouse.comspeaks2.htmlOpen ↗

Why would Puzo have insight into this? I know his parents were born in Italy, but wasn't Mario
born in NY?

It's a slang term that was (is?) in widespread use in Italian neighborhoods in New York. I don't
know Puzo's family history, but I assume his parents (or at least grandparents) emigrated from Italy
and that a mix of Italian & English was spoken at home.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Ciocc" I believe is the attempt to phonetically spell the corrupted form of the word as
pronounced in the Italian of the region, which may be closer to "choach".

But you're saying it's the Naples dialect not the Val d'Aosta dialect?

I don't know how widespread use of the word may be, or what regional modifications it may have
undergone. Perhaps Sergio S can comment.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for the perspective... but we still don't have anything "definitive". I sent an e-mail off
to the Ciocc company when this thread first started - no response as of yet.

-------------------------------
John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida businesscycles.combusinesscycles.comOpen ↗ Now in our twenty-first
year. Our catalog of track equipment: eighth year online
-------------------------------

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

censored Wise said:

Ciocc, Could someone tell me the proper pronunciation of this frame.

As you can see, it is Italian and has a German umlaut over the O which leads me to believe the
name came from South Tyrol or Alto Adige as the Italians call it.

With all due respect to Jobst's knowledge about such things, this is not correct. AFAIK "Ciöcc" is a
word from a northwest italian dialect (piemontese) that has nothing in common with the german
language (in Südtirol, the word would be written something like "Tschötsch"😉 By the way, the Name of
the famous Lamborghini Countach is taken from the same dialect, i believe. If you want to know how
the name "Ciöcc" (and many other italian names related to cycling) are pronounced, check out
mappel.desound.htmlOpen ↗ i put two mp3-files there. They are not mine, i found them on
the web. I hope they are not copyrighted...

regards, Martin

Martin Appel said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ciocc, Could someone tell me the proper pronunciation of this frame.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As you can see, it is Italian and has a German umlaut over the O which leads me to believe the
name came from South Tyrol or Alto Adige as the Italians call it.

Quoted message said:

With all due respect to Jobst's knowledge about such things, this is not correct. AFAIK "Ci?cc" is
a word from a northwest Italian dialect (Piemontese) that has nothing in common with the German
language (in S?dtirol, the word would be written something like "Tsch?tsch"😉

The Piemonte does not have any one dialect, it covering many Provinces of the eastern Po valley,
literally the foothills. The only region not part of it is Valle d'Aosta in the northwest corner.
Consider that both Cuneo and Verbania are part of this region, each having some linguistic nuances.

The problem with that scenario and the pronunciations you offer on the web is that "Ci?cc" is the
only word/name in the list that does not follow Italian or other pronunciation rules. The ending
"cc" would have to be a "k" sound unless followed by an "i" or "e" as in "Dedacciai" where the "ci"
is the Italian equivalent of the English "ch" and has no vowel sound as in "Gianni" pronounced
"Jahnny" rather than "Gee-ahn-ny" as many people think. Italian has no J,K, or Y and makes its "j"
sounds by following a "g" with "i" or "e" and the "k" sound before "i" and "e" by the "ch"
combination or the "gh" combination for instance in "Spaghetti." Without the "gh" it would be
pronounced "spa-jetty".

Quoted message said:

By the way, the Name of the famous Lamborghini Countach is taken from the same dialect, i believe.

Val d'Aosta is a largely French speaking region and as these web sites show, the name of the region
varies with language.

initaly.comvaldsta.htmOpen ↗ regione.vda.itregione.vda.itOpen ↗
aostavalley.comaostavalley.comOpen ↗

The last two come in French and Italian.

Quoted message said:

If you want to know how the name "Ci?cc" (and many other Italian names related to cycling) are
pronounced, check out:

mappel.desound.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

I put two MP3-files there. They are not mine, I found them on the web. I hope they are not
copyrighted...

The inflection on the accented syllable of these words sound like an ethnic caricature. Italian
isn't spoken -----\_/--, upsy downsy as the speaker on that sound track does.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Martin Appel said:

Quoted message said:

> Ciocc, Could someone tell me the proper pronunciation of this frame.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As you can see, it is Italian and has a German umlaut over the O which leads me to believe the
name came from South Tyrol or Alto Adige as the Italians call it.

Quoted message said:

With all due respect to Jobst's knowledge about such things, this is not correct. AFAIK "Ci?cc"
is a word from a northwest Italian dialect (Piemontese) that has nothing in common with the
German language (in S?dtirol, the word would be written something like "Tsch?tsch"😉

The Piemonte does not have any one dialect, it covering many Provinces of the eastern Po valley,
literally the foothills. The only region not part of it is Valle d'Aosta in the northwest corner.
Consider that both Cuneo and Verbania are part of this region, each having some linguistic
nuances.

company founder Giovanni Peizzoli is from Bergamo, as is the bicycle company.

Quoted message said:

The problem with that scenario and the pronunciations you offer on the web is that "Ci?cc" is the
only word/name in the list that does not follow Italian or other pronunciation rules. The ending
"cc" would have to be a "k" sound unless followed by an "i" or "e" as in "Dedacciai" where the
"ci" is the Italian equivalent of the English "ch" and has no vowel sound as in "Gianni"
pronounced "Jahnny" rather than "Gee-ahn-ny" as many people think.

you're right. On the other hand the "u" in "Guerini" IS to be Goo-erini, not "Gerini" (All the
foreigners make that mistake, our italian teammember assured me)

Quoted message said:

Italian has no J,K, or Y and makes its "j" sounds by following a "g" with "i" or "e" and the "k"
sound before "i" and "e" by the "ch" combination or the "gh" combination for instance in
"Spaghetti." Without the "gh" it would be pronounced "spa-jetty".

if it was pronounced in the italian way, it wouldn't be much of a dialect. take the
"countach" example: the "ch" at the end would then also be pronounced like a "k", but it
isn't - its also a "sh".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

By the way, the Name of the famous Lamborghini Countach is taken from the same dialect, i
believe.

Val d'Aosta is a largely French speaking region and as these web sites show, the name of the
region varies with language.

undoubtedly. But the Valle d'aosta is nowhere related to either Pelizzoli or Ciöcc, as far
as i know.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you want to know how the name "Ci?cc" (and many other Italian names related to cycling) are
pronounced, check out:

mappel.desound.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

I put two MP3-files there. They are not mine, I found them on the web. I hope they are not
copyrighted...

The inflection on the accented syllable of these words sound like an ethnic caricature. Italian
isn't spoken -----\_/--, upsy downsy as the speaker on that sound track does.

The guy who speaks is definetly a native italian. Of course he speaks very articulated - he is
recorded so that other people can understand what he says, after all.

Martin

On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 02:26:40 GMT, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Lysdexic as I sometimes am,

Jobst, there is a group for people like us.

Will you join me in the DNA? That's the National Dyslexics Association.

;-)

On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 08:41:22 -0600, dianne_1234

may have said:

Quoted message said:

Lysdexic as I sometimes am,

Jobst, there is a group for people like us.

Will you join me in the DNA? That's the National Dyslexics Association.

There's also DAM, Mothers Against Dyslexia, for those with offspring similarly afflicted.

.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

dianne_1234 may have said:

Quoted message said:

Lysdexic as I sometimes am,

Jobst, there is a group for people like us.

Will you join me in the DNA? That's the National Dyslexics Association.

There's also DAM, Mothers Against Dyslexia, for those with offspring similarly afflicted.

.

Dear Jobst, Dianne, and Werehatrack,

Luckily, there's a new wonder drug that cures the malady--dyslexelsyd.

Unfortunately, palindrome-syndrome is a side-effect.

Witch-Sword, an herbal remedy, is said to minimize the side-effects, but can lead to Spoonerism.

Carl Fogel

John Dacey <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Ego sum rex Romanus, et supra grammaticam." - Sigismund On 29 Dec 2003 19:26:50 -0800,

(Scott) said:

John Dacey said:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:53:13 +0100, Sergio SERVADIO <[email hidden]> wrote:

> It is certainly an abbreviation and no one
> can tell for sure not knowing what it is from.

I believe it derives from "ciuccio"; Neapolitan slang for donkey, or in this case, more likely
"jackass" (further euphemised to "joker" for retelling the corporate history).

Naples? What makes you say that? I'm curious why a frame maker would want to name their products
after a jackass.

That's the original meaning, but as applied to people, it has a much broader use whose meaning is
almost entirely contextual. It can be function as a term of endearment (my wife's mother from
Naples has called me this many times) or as mildly disparaging (she couldn't have intended to say
something mean about *me*, could she?). Usage spans such situations as: "Oh you little chooch, you
got cookie-crumbs on the new tablecloth." "What a chooch! He didn't grease the tapers and now he
needs a new crank." "Hey, that chooch of a waiter short-changed me." It seems to sometimes
connotes a lack of cleverness, but just as easily can apply to a someone with a scamp-like or
scalawag quality. I assume it's the latter that Ciocc means to convey.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As used as an all-purpose, mildly derisive slur used to describe a person, the word corrupted
into a single syllable (pronounced "chooch"😉. See one use of the word from Mario Puzo (The
Godfather) in the account here (middle of the page):
randomhouse.comspeaks2.htmlOpen ↗

Why would Puzo have insight into this? I know his parents were born in Italy, but wasn't Mario
born in NY?

It's a slang term that was (is?) in widespread use in Italian neighborhoods in New York. I don't
know Puzo's family history, but I assume his parents (or at least grandparents) emigrated from
Italy and that a mix of Italian & English was spoken at home.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Ciocc" I believe is the attempt to phonetically spell the corrupted form of the word as
pronounced in the Italian of the region, which may be closer to "choach".

But you're saying it's the Naples dialect not the Val d'Aosta dialect?

I don't know how widespread use of the word may be, or what regional modifications it may have
undergone. Perhaps Sergio S can comment.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for the perspective... but we still don't have anything "definitive". I sent an e-mail off
to the Ciocc company when this thread first started - no response as of yet.

-------------------------------
John Dacey

Dear John,

Chooch . . . cheech?

Hmmm . . . Chong's partner?

In romance languages, consonants count for very little, and vowels don't matter at all.

Linguistically yours,

Carl Fogel

John Dacey <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Ego sum rex Romanus, et supra grammaticam." - Sigismund On 29 Dec 2003 19:26:50 -0800,

(Scott) said:

John Dacey said:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:53:13 +0100, Sergio SERVADIO <[email hidden]> wrote:

> It is certainly an abbreviation and no one
> can tell for sure not knowing what it is from.

I believe it derives from "ciuccio"; Neapolitan slang for donkey, or in this case, more likely
"jackass" (further euphemised to "joker" for retelling the corporate history).

Naples? What makes you say that? I'm curious why a frame maker would want to name their products
after a jackass.

That's the original meaning, but as applied to people, it has a much broader use whose meaning is
almost entirely contextual. It can be function as a term of endearment (my wife's mother from
Naples has called me this many times) or as mildly disparaging (she couldn't have intended to say
something mean about *me*, could she?). Usage spans such situations as: "Oh you little chooch, you
got cookie-crumbs on the new tablecloth." "What a chooch! He didn't grease the tapers and now he
needs a new crank." "Hey, that chooch of a waiter short-changed me." It seems to sometimes
connotes a lack of cleverness, but just as easily can apply to a someone with a scamp-like or
scalawag quality. I assume it's the latter that Ciocc means to convey.

I suspect this is quite anectdotal and I'm not sure how much it applies to the topic at hand.
"Ciuccio" (other than meaning pacifier/binky in Italian) also means "donkey" in the dialect of
the Lucania (I don't quite understand who they are, but googling makes it appear they're from
the Basilicata region and they want independence?). So are the frames named after a pacifier
or a donkey?

Dialects are quite complicated. And sub-dialects make things even more difficult. For example, in
Sicily there are "carusi" (in Catania), "fighioli" (in Messina), and "picchiotti" (in Palermo). All
mean "ragazzi" (kids/guys/fellows) in Italian. We seem to be discussing the reverse-problem. One
word can mean many different things depending on the region and dialect.

I won't be convinced of any pronouncements (no pun intended!) of proper pronunciation until the
derivation of the name is firmly established. Until then, I think we've just heard a lot "I've
heard/I'm told/I deduce"...

Come one, us Californians can't even agree on how to pronounce California (just as Gray Davis or
Arnold). Is it no wonder this thread is inconclusive.

Scott-

P.S. Still no word from Ciocc themselves.

On 1 Jan 2004 11:37:58 -0800, [email hidden] (Carl Fogel)

Quoted message said:

John Dacey <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > It is certainly an abbreviation and no one
> > can tell for sure not knowing what it is from.
>
> I believe it derives from "ciuccio"; Neapolitan slang for donkey, or in this case, more likely
> "jackass" (further euphemised to "joker" for retelling the corporate history).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> As used as an all-purpose, mildly derisive slur used to describe a person, the word corrupted
> into a single syllable (pronounced "chooch"😉. See one use of the word from Mario Puzo (The
> Godfather) in the account here (middle of the page):
> randomhouse.comspeaks2.htmlOpen ↗

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's a slang term that was (is?) in widespread use in Italian neighborhoods in New York. I don't
know Puzo's family history, but I assume his parents (or at least grandparents) emigrated from
Italy and that a mix of Italian & English was spoken at home.

Quoted message said:

> "Ciocc" I believe is the attempt to phonetically spell the corrupted form of the word as
> pronounced in the Italian of the region, which may be closer to "chyoach".

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Dear John,

Chooch . . . cheech? Hmmm . . . Chong's partner?

No. I posit that ciuccio shortens to ciucc in common parlance which further evolved to ciöcc by
Pelizzoli's phonetic spelling in his regional dialect. It's consistent with the widespread notion
that "Ciöcc" is an inside joke and/or may have been a nickname. It also addresses why it ends in a
double-c and contains an umlauted o.

I'm not persuaded by the "poker-face" explanation. I doubt that the game of poker was even much
known in Bergamo in the '70s (or whenever the company originated). Many Italian framebuilders whose
existence much predates Ciöcc have used playing card symbols as frame details (Colnago's club,
DeRosa's heart, etc). If you place much importance into the use of playing card symbols, you might
be led to think that a large portion of the roster of Italian framebuilders is filled from the ranks
of degenerate gamblers.

Quoted message said:

In romance languages, consonants count for very little, and vowels don't matter at all.

Quoted message said:

Linguistically yours,

Carl Fogel

-------------------------------
John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida Now in our twenty-first year. Our catalog of track
equipment: eighth year online. businesscycles.combusinesscycles.comOpen ↗

On 1 Jan 2004 16:32:45 -0800, [email hidden] (Scott)

Quoted message said:

John Dacey <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > It is certainly an abbreviation and no one
> > can tell for sure not knowing what it is from.
>
> I believe it derives from "ciuccio"; Neapolitan slang for donkey, or in this case, more likely
> "jackass" (further euphemised to "joker" for retelling the corporate history).

I'm curious why a frame maker would want to name their products after a jackass.

As noted elsewhere, I think the connotation isn't quite so literal. In a similar vein though: is
there really a Signore Scapin who founded that firm, or is that marque named for Molière's
famous swindler?

<snip>

Quoted message said:

but googling makes it appear they're from the Basilicata region and they want independence?). So
are the frames named after a pacifier or a donkey?

Google "ciucc" and you'll see it's donkey/mule/ass.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I won't be convinced of any pronouncements (no pun intended!) of proper pronunciation until the
derivation of the name is firmly established. Until then, I think we've just heard a lot "I've
heard/I'm told/I deduce"...

Come one, us Californians can't even agree on how to pronounce California (just as Gray Davis or
Arnold). Is it no wonder this thread is inconclusive.

Just as the correct pronunciation of Joe Bfstplk was what Al Capp said it was, Ciöcc themselves are
the final arbiters of this matter.

Quoted message said:

Scott-

P.S. Still no word from Ciocc themselves.

Has anyone ever called them on the telephone? After "pronto", what do they say?

-------------------------------
John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida businesscycles.combusinesscycles.comOpen ↗ Now in our twenty-first
year. Our catalog of track equipment: eighth year online
-------------------------------

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Dialects are quite complicated. And sub-dialects make things even more difficult. For example, in
Sicily there are "carusi" (in Catania), "fighioli" (in Messina), and "picchiotti" (in Palermo).
All mean "ragazzi" (kids/guys/fellows) in Italian. We seem to be discussing the reverse-problem.
One word can mean many different things depending on the region and dialect.

I won't be convinced of any pronouncements (no pun intended!) of proper pronunciation until the
derivation of the name is firmly established. Until then, I think we've just heard a lot "I've
heard/I'm told/I deduce"...

Come one, us Californians can't even agree on how to pronounce California (just as Gray Davis or
Arnold). Is it no wonder this thread is inconclusive.

We could always dredge up the Mavic, Mah-veek, May-vick debate again... It seems to fit here!

Mike

Quoted message said:

Scott-

P.S. Still no word from Ciocc themselves.

John Dacey <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(Scott) said:

John Dacey <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

but googling makes it appear they're from the Basilicata region and they want independence?). So
are the frames named after a pacifier or a donkey?

Google "ciucc" and you'll see it's donkey/mule/ass.

I'm not sure what you're trying to counter or convey with all the snipping, but my point was that
the word is surely used by many Italians in many dialects; meaning changes accordingly.

Quoted message said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I won't be convinced of any pronouncements (no pun intended!) of proper pronunciation until the
derivation of the name is firmly established. Until then, I think we've just heard a lot "I've
heard/I'm told/I deduce"...

Come one, us Californians can't even agree on how to pronounce California (just as Gray Davis or
Arnold). Is it no wonder this thread is inconclusive.

Just as the correct pronunciation of Joe Bfstplk was what Al Capp said it was, Ciöcc themselves
are the final arbiters of this matter.

Perhaps not even they... as I was trying to point out by the disagreement over the pronunciation of
California.

I think the far more interesting question that can be distilled from this thread is "Why are they
called Ciocc?" The answer should be available definitively.

Quoted message said:

Has anyone ever called them on the telephone? After "pronto", what do they say?

I guess I'll have to give www.paginegialle.it a try and see if I can get a number.

Scott-

John Dacey <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I'm not persuaded by the "poker-face" explanation. I doubt that the game of poker was even much
known in Bergamo in the '70s (or whenever the company originated).

[snip]

Dear John,

See your doubt and raise you.

While the translator may have led me astray, Giovanni Guareschi's Don Camillo stories set in the post-
war Po valley through the early 1960's featured the burly priest and communist mayor playing poker
enthusiastically (and cheating wildly), possibly a legacy of the Allied invasion.

It'll cost you five chips to call and find out the name of the story--am I bluffing?

(I've always wanted to play poker by mail. Chess by mail was so tame.)

Carl Fogel

On 2 Jan 2004 19:09:30 -0800, [email hidden] (Carl Fogel)

Quoted message said:

John Dacey <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I'm not persuaded by the "poker-face" explanation. I doubt that the game of poker was even much
known in Bergamo in the '70s (or whenever the company originated).

[snip]

Dear John,

See your doubt and raise you.

While the translator may have led me astray, Giovanni Guareschi's Don Camillo stories set in the
post-war Po valley through the early 1960's featured the burly priest and communist mayor playing
poker enthusiastically (and cheating wildly), possibly a legacy of the Allied invasion.

It'll cost you five chips to call and find out the name of the story--am I bluffing?

(I've always wanted to play poker by mail. Chess by mail was so tame.)

You "Card Sharpers" are all alike. I call you.

-------------------------------
John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida businesscycles.combusinesscycles.comOpen ↗ Now in our twenty-first
year. Our catalog of track equipment: eighth year online
-------------------------------

Carl Fogel said:

Dear John,

See your doubt and raise you.

While the translator may have led me astray, Giovanni Guareschi's Don Camillo stories set in the
post-war Po valley through the early 1960's featured the burly priest and communist mayor playing
poker enthusiastically (and cheating wildly), possibly a legacy of the Allied invasion.

It'll cost you five chips to call and find out the name of the story--am I bluffing?...

Dear Carl,

Does the loser have to drink a bottle of castor oil?

Tom Sherman – Close to 41½ N, 90½ W

It could be rhymed with the word at tinyurl.com2vvksOpen ↗

Tom Ace

John Dacey <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(Carl Fogel) said:

John Dacey <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I'm not persuaded by the "poker-face" explanation. I doubt that the game of poker was even much
known in Bergamo in the '70s (or whenever the company originated).

[snip]

Dear John,

See your doubt and raise you.

While the translator may have led me astray, Giovanni Guareschi's Don Camillo stories set in the
post-war Po valley through the early 1960's featured the burly priest and communist mayor playing
poker enthusiastically (and cheating wildly), possibly a legacy of the Allied invasion.

It'll cost you five chips to call and find out the name of the story--am I bluffing?

(I've always wanted to play poker by mail. Chess by mail was so tame.)

You "Card Sharpers" are all alike. I call you.

-------------------------------
John Dacey

Dear John,

Well, since you already have the title up your sleeve, I suppose that I won't collect my winnings.

Here's a nice link:

mywebpages.comcast.netdilemma.htmOpen ↗

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

John Dacey <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... [snip]

Quoted message said:

I'm not persuaded by the "poker-face" explanation. I doubt that the game of poker was even much
known in Bergamo in the '70s (or whenever the company originated).

Quoted message said:

[snip]

Carl Fogel said:

See your doubt and raise you. While the translator may have led me astray, Giovanni Guareschi's
Don Camillo stories set in the post-war Po valley through the early 1960's featured the burly
priest and communist mayor playing poker enthusiastically (and cheating wildly), possibly a legacy
of the Allied invasion. It'll cost you five chips to call and find out the name of the story--am I
bluffing? (I've always wanted to play poker by mail. Chess by mail was so tame.)

My favorite of the genre is "Christ stopped at Eboli". A good read and curious to this Italian-
American learning about Italians.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Carl Fogel said:

Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]-
berlin.de>...

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel said:

Dear John, While the translator may have led me astray, Giovanni Guareschi's Don Camillo
stories ...

Try to get to see the movie, instead. Hysterical, even if you don't understand a word of it.

Sergio Pisa