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Maximum strength and cycling performance

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Cycling Training
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7 November 2012
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dominikk85
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  1. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by frost [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    Exactly. A story about some pro cyclist going to gym forgets to mention a small detail that they ride their bike 30000 km/year.
    And not only what they do but why they do it. Fergie's story of prescribing gym training for some of his athletes for motivational reasons is a good example.
    And even we tend to think that it's only for juniors or us mere mortals that top athletes don't need any motivational support but they are like machines that only do what is strictly improving their performance, I don't think that is the case. Wiggins with his history of alcohol abuse and recent pictures from holiday with a cigarette (a joint some might say) in hand is a good example. You probably wouldn't drink and smoke because a TdF winner does, at least not claiming that it is for performance.


    He didn`t mention the drinking/smoking, but the visit to the gym and the 4-5 hour ride in the cold.

  2. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by Felt_Rider [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    Not true at mine.....ugh!! [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]


    My local gyms are filled with fatties trying to get healthy.

  3. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by POGATA [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    Boardman is a world record holder


    Wrong, no he isn't.

    4000m individual pursuit 4:10.534 Jack Bobridge

    Jack is a little skinny guy from Adelaide.

  4. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by POGATA [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    He didn`t mention the drinking/smoking, but the visit to the gym and the 4-5 hour ride in the cold.


    I think you got the point?

    Or do you say that you want to base your training on one newspaper article rather than hundred years of scientific study?

  5. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by POGATA [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    And who are you, why should I care what you say?

    What about core strength?

    I don`t care much for "groups", I`m more interested in what the people who perform at the very highest level do.


    So a fan boy? Good luck with that.

    How much business would I do as a coach if I said, well today team we are going to train like this because Chris Boardman did it in 1996 and it worked for him then. Tomorrow we will train like Wiggo so I will all see you at the Airport as we fly for Tenerife at 2pm[IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]

  6. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by frost [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    I think you got the point?

    Or do you say that you want to base your training on one newspaper article rather than hundred years of scientific study?

    One of those people whose training changes every month when the latest cycling mag arrives with some new advice.

  7. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by ambal [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    Wrong, no he isn't.

    Jack is a little skinny guy from Adelaide.


    Quoted post said:

    Best hour performance 56km375 CHRISTOPHER BOARDMAN (GBR) 06.09.1996 MANCHESTER (GBR)

    uci.chlayout.asp

    Sosenka is a certified doper(en.wikipedia.orgOnd%C5%99ej Sosenka).

    And CS is also a little skinny guy, who claims to have worked out in the gym as a part of his training towards riding fast on a bike.
    [IMG]cyclingforums.com700[/IMG]

  8. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by frost [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    I think you got the point?

    Or do you say that you want to base your training on one newspaper article rather than hundred years of scientific study?

    He`s a TdF winner/olympic champion and he claims he went to a gym to work on his core. And you guys on this forum claim that going to the gym is a waste of time/energy, and now you claim that hundred years of scientific study proves it. So why does this TdF winner/olympic champion waste his time/energy going to a gym to work on his core, or just claim to do so?

  9. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by fergie [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    So a fan boy? Good luck with that.

    How much business would I do as a coach if I said, well today team we are going to train like this because Chris Boardman did it in 1996 and it worked for him then. Tomorrow we will train like Wiggo so I will all see you at the Airport as we fly for Tenerife at 2pm[IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]

    So you agree with CB that lifting weights can be bebeficial to a cyclist?

    What I think is weird is that you guys claim that(or seem to do) lifting weights is completely useless, while the fastest raodracer in the world, claims that he goes to the gym, i.e. something doesn`t add up.

    So the job of a coach is to do things differentely than what has worked for others?

  10. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by fergie [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    One of those people whose training changes every month when the latest cycling mag arrives with some new advice.


    No, I`ve been weight training/running/cycling for 20 years, never read a cycling mag etc.

  11. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by POGATA [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    He`s a TdF winner/olympic champion and he claims he went to a gym to work on his core. And you guys on this forum claim that going to the gym is a waste of time/energy, and now you claim that hundred years of scientific study proves it. So why does this TdF winner/olympic champion waste his time/energy going to a gym to work on his core, or just claim to do so?


    As I have been trying to say for several times: we don't know why he is going to the gym (at least based on that article only). Scientific evidence doesn't support very well that endurance cycling performance can be improved with strength training, but there are various other reasons to include gym or other training or even non-training to someone's training program that are not directly related to the performance. If someone believes that being strong helps cycling performance and that actually makes him/her try harder and achieve better results, then that's worth while even being strong wouldn't physically help. That's the part of coaching.

    But as long as we don't know the reasons (and the whole training program which in case of top athletes is probably not public information in very detail level) it is not very wise to just blindly copy parts of the program and think that is their secret to success.

  12. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by POGATA [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    So the job of a coach is to do things differentely than what has worked for others?


    Yes, the job of a coach is to do things the way that work for you. Otherwise there wouldn't be much need for coaches.

  13. The Confusion Principle

    Those emulating a particular pro(s) based on a web article, magazine, rumor mill or recorded statement.
    Fergie and Frost have already commented on this, but I can testify to this as well and was duped myself when I first started lifting. Back in my first days all we had were muscle magazines and just about everyone in my local area attempted to emulate what we read in those magazines. My first few years were emulating guys that were loaded to the gills on drugs and little did I understand there were several things going on in those magazines that was highly important to my personal success. First and foremost was the 1 in 10,000 genetics. Second, was the drug use. Third, was intentional falsehood because their fellow competitors also wanted to know what and how their competition is training. Fourth, was glamorizing their training as if they are indeed the most hardcore trained athlete on the planet.

    When I moved to the Atlanta area I was fortunate to train at one of best hardcore gyms in the nation, Coffee's Gym, which is owned by one of the best Olympic lifting coaches in the world. In that gym were all sorts of elite level athletes and I cannot tell you how many times I would be standing within hearing distance and a high level athlete intentionally tell a young guy or girl something totally bogus because they thought it was humorous to do that in front of their friends. Those new people so eager to hear what this elite level person did and just soaking it all up as if it were the absolute truth. Another thing I found about some of these high level athletes were many of them were absolutely dumb as a rock and the only reason they got up to the elite level was due to 1 in 10,000 genetics and being coached, but when it came down to discussing training they seemed pretty stupid concerning physiology. They didn't have to learn because progressing came so easy that they didn't have to spend time studying like most of us. Also having genetics that good allowed them to do inefficient things in their training and they gained not because of those things, but in spite. I shared an apartment with two females that had 1 in 10,000 genetics. One became a pro IFBB bodybuilder and the other set records in powerlifting and olympic lifting. Both were an emotional mess, did things people should not do for good health, stayed out late partying, training was hit and miss most of the time. It wasn't until the bodybuilder got to the pro level is when she finally faced others with similar genetics that took training more serious. That is when she finally had to take her training more serious, but before that she could gain so easily with very little stimulation, technique or thought.

    For me with not so good genetics. I couldn't emulate the pros and what they did. I trained myself and I coached others with hope of finding the most efficient avenue based on their genetics, their schedule and their goals while keeping it evidence based as my guide. Like Frost said it is part science and part art.

    Those that have training for health and training to win confused.
    I have seen this a whole lot in my days of either consulting others and I take a person's goals very seriously. If someone approached me with intention to win and have a healty stature I am going to take that into consideration, but I am going to be honest that training to win is not necessarily healthy. Most elite level atheletes are not the healthiest of individuals. Many have overuse injuries, weakened immune systems, higher cortisol levels, higher emotional stress and many other aspects like heat stroke and other serious risk when pushing the body to the brink. Not to mention those with the "win at all costs" type of attitude, which I too had at one time that crossed me into to that territory of breaking the law and major health risks. I can name, though I am not on the web, more than five people that I personally knew that have died young as a result of trying to win and go to the next level. I can tell you of another batch that have permanent physical damage due to pushing to win.

    So what is my point? I have seen on these discussions things like, "you need to train strength because it is good for your general health" in context to the cyclist that only does cycling. The answer is good health and winning are two different things. Sure a good solid core is good general health and being able to lean over and pick up a 50 lb box may be a good thing, but it isn't necessary to sit on a bike and win a race. It has been said countless times and just by general observation anyone can see that sitting on a bike takes very little fitness, core or good health. Winning a high level race is very difficult though and takes a lot of concentrated specific training effort. How many upper level cyclists have risked good health by using EPO? How many professional athletes in various sports show up in the media arrested for recreational drug use. Do they care about their health? Many do and many do not, but that doesn't keep the genetically gifted from winning. Good health and winning are two different things. Shaping the physique to fit the sport is not always the heathiest. For the cyclists shaping that body to have decreased frontal area is more important than being able to bench their body weight.

    Now my disclaimer after making a lot of bad choices in my youth and getting a very stern warning from my doctor that I was very near death I now consider good health more important than winning, but that applies to my personal goals as of now.

    Those that think strength training for a few winter weeks is going to have a lasting effect.
    Just as any progressive training goes the moment you stop the gains will be lost. The body adapts to whatever stress you place on it. Train it aerobically and it adapts. Confine it in a wheelchair and it adapts by reducing what is not needed - atrophy of muscle. Sit at an office desk and sit on the couch at night the heart adapts to the low stress. Train it for picking up a box and it gets better at picking up boxes. Stop picking up boxes and it no longer has a need and it adapts again. If you raise your FTP by 20 watts over a few months and then have to stop what happens? If you increase your squat weight in 5 weeks and then turn the focus to cycling and abandon lifting what happens?

    From this I have seen a lot of "cycling gurus" talk about strength training and yet don't have a clue as to what they are talking about or they completely forget this training and detraining aspect. It also seems to be a point of confusion to those just learning about training in general.

    --------------------

    Well those are a few stumbling areas that I see on these discussions. I am sure there are other points of confusion and I have a lot to learn as well when it comes to endurance training.

  14. That is an excellent post Felt!

  15. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by frost [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    Yes, the job of a coach is to do things the way that work for you. Otherwise there wouldn't be much need for coaches.

    What if it works for me to, should the coach prescribe something else in defiance?

  16. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by frost [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    As I have been trying to say for several times: we don't know why he is going to the gym (at least based on that article only). Scientific evidence doesn't support very well that endurance cycling performance can be improved with strength training, but there are various other reasons to include gym or other training or even non-training to someone's training program that are not directly related to the performance. If someone believes that being strong helps cycling performance and that actually makes him/her try harder and achieve better results, then that's worth while even being strong wouldn't physically help. That's the part of coaching.

    But as long as we don't know the reasons (and the whole training program which in case of top athletes is probably not public information in very detail level) it is not very wise to just blindly copy parts of the program and think that is their secret to success.

    So strength training might be beneficial to a cyclists performance on the bike?

  17. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by Felt_Rider [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    The Confusion Principle

    Those emulating a particular pro(s) based on a web article, magazine, rumor mill or recorded statement.
    Fergie and Frost have already commented on this, but I can testify to this as well and was duped myself when I first started lifting. Back in my first days all we had were muscle magazines and just about everyone in my local area attempted to emulate what we read in those magazines. My first few years were emulating guys that were loaded to the gills on drugs and little did I understand there were several things going on in those magazines that was highly important to my personal success. First and foremost was the 1 in 10,000 genetics. Second, was the drug use. Third, was intentional falsehood because their fellow competitors also wanted to know what and how their competition is training. Fourth, was glamorizing their training as if they are indeed the most hardcore trained athlete on the planet.

    When I moved to the Atlanta area I was fortunate to train at one of best hardcore gyms in the nation, Coffee's Gym, which is owned by one of the best Olympic lifting coaches in the world. In that gym were all sorts of elite level athletes and I cannot tell you how many times I would be standing within hearing distance and a high level athlete intentionally tell a young guy or girl something totally bogus because they thought it was humorous to do that in front of their friends. Those new people so eager to hear what this elite level person did and just soaking it all up as if it were the absolute truth. Another thing I found about some of these high level athletes were many of them were absolutely dumb as a rock and the only reason they got up to the elite level was due to 1 in 10,000 genetics and being coached, but when it came down to discussing training they seemed pretty stupid concerning physiology. They didn't have to learn because progressing came so easy that they didn't have to spend time studying like most of us. Also having genetics that good allowed them to do inefficient things in their training and they gained not because of those things, but in spite. I shared an apartment with two females that had 1 in 10,000 genetics. One became a pro IFBB bodybuilder and the other set records in powerlifting and olympic lifting. Both were an emotional mess, did things people should not do for good health, stayed out late partying, training was hit and miss most of the time. It wasn't until the bodybuilder got to the pro level is when she finally faced others with similar genetics that took training more serious. That is when she finally had to take her training more serious, but before that she could gain so easily with very little stimulation, technique or thought.

    For me with not so good genetics. I couldn't emulate the pros and what they did. I trained myself and I coached others with hope of finding the most efficient avenue based on their genetics, their schedule and their goals while keeping it evidence based as my guide. Like Frost said it is part science and part art.

    Those that have training for health and training to win confused.
    I have seen this a whole lot in my days of either consulting others and I take a person's goals very seriously. If someone approached me with intention to win and have a healty stature I am going to take that into consideration, but I am going to be honest that training to win is not necessarily healthy. Most elite level atheletes are not the healthiest of individuals. Many have overuse injuries, weakened immune systems, higher cortisol levels, higher emotional stress and many other aspects like heat stroke and other serious risk when pushing the body to the brink. Not to mention those with the "win at all costs" type of attitude, which I too had at one time that crossed me into to that territory of breaking the law and major health risks. I can name, though I am not on the web, more than five people that I personally knew that have died young as a result of trying to win and go to the next level. I can tell you of another batch that have permanent physical damage due to pushing to win.

    So what is my point? I have seen on these discussions things like, "you need to train strength because it is good for your general health" in context to the cyclist that only does cycling. The answer is good health and winning are two different things. Sure a good solid core is good general health and being able to lean over and pick up a 50 lb box may be a good thing, but it isn't necessary to sit on a bike and win a race. It has been said countless times and just by general observation anyone can see that sitting on a bike takes very little fitness, core or good health. Winning a high level race is very difficult though and takes a lot of concentrated specific training effort. How many upper level cyclists have risked good health by using EPO? How many professional athletes in various sports show up in the media arrested for recreational drug use. Do they care about their health? Many do and many do not, but that doesn't keep the genetically gifted from winning. Good health and winning are two different things. Shaping the physique to fit the sport is not always the heathiest. For the cyclists shaping that body to have decreased frontal area is more important than being able to bench their body weight.

    Now my disclaimer after making a lot of bad choices in my youth and getting a very stern warning from my doctor that I was very near death I now consider good health more important than winning, but that applies to my personal goals as of now.

    Those that think strength training for a few winter weeks is going to have a lasting effect.
    Just as any progressive training goes the moment you stop the gains will be lost. The body adapts to whatever stress you place on it. Train it aerobically and it adapts. Confine it in a wheelchair and it adapts by reducing what is not needed - atrophy of muscle. Sit at an office desk and sit on the couch at night the heart adapts to the low stress. Train it for picking up a box and it gets better at picking up boxes. Stop picking up boxes and it no longer has a need and it adapts again. If you raise your FTP by 20 watts over a few months and then have to stop what happens? If you increase your squat weight in 5 weeks and then turn the focus to cycling and abandon lifting what happens?

    From this I have seen a lot of "cycling gurus" talk about strength training and yet don't have a clue as to what they are talking about or they completely forget this training and detraining aspect. It also seems to be a point of confusion to those just learning about training in general.

    --------------------

    Well those are a few stumbling areas that I see on these discussions. I am sure there are other points of confusion and I have a lot to learn as well when it comes to endurance training.


    Why does CB/BW claim to go to the gym, if it doesn`t benefit them as cyclists, which is their livelihood? Or do you think they did it just for laughs, i.e. to mislead the people reading their books?

  18. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by POGATA [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    So strength training might be beneficial to a cyclists performance on the bike?


    In the context I presented almost anything might be beneficial.

  19. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by POGATA [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    What if it works for me to, should the coach prescribe something else in defiance?


    Has anyone even remotely indicated that? Did you read that text by Fergie (a coach who is very convinced that strength training or especially maximum strength - subject of thread - is not beneficial to endurance cyclists or not even necessarily to sprinters) about prescribing gym training to some of his athletes for motivational reasons?

  20. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by POGATA [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    Why does CB/BW claim to go to the gym, if it doesn`t benefit them as cyclists, which is their livelihood? Or do you think they did it just for laughs, i.e. to mislead the people reading their books?

    I have no earthly idea why either of them make the claim. Several us threw out some potential ideas of why some people make the claim. I am not going to continue wasting my time trying to convince you. You believe and apply what you want. It makes no difference to me in the least.

    I will say apart from CB/BW there are, have been and will be a lot of books topping the NY Best Seller list that have intentional or non-intentional misleading information in them either for the sake of pushing a certain agenda and/or for personal gain. How many star athletes endorse nutritional supplements that have no supporting evidence of positive results? I guess I am either less naive or simply a lot more skeptical in my older years.

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