Long (-ish) rides

50 Miles, two water bottles with energy drink and an energy bar does me fine.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by bartsie [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I did my first-ever 50 (with only a banana and a few almonds; didn't stop for lunch) last weekend and it was quite shocking towards the end. So I guess the time has come for me to think about those things.

Congats on the ride!

All it takes is one of these incidents and you'll never leave home unprepared again.

50 miles can be a very different ride depending on the intensity. Some will no doubt try to bolster there insecurities by saying they can do that on just breakfast and a few sips of water. Manly men no doubt but nothing useful will come from that advice.

An easy fifty miles, well that's boring so lets talk about 50 somewhat hilly miles of hammering. Should take about 2:30 hours give or take which is plenty of time to completely deplete your glycogen stores. Take stuff you like to eat or plan a midway stop at a watering hole, but beyond cold cash take some gels or bars. A long time ago I got caught in the middle of nowhere after bonking 3 miles from the return station. Nothing but crickets and grass. The twenty in my wallet was of no use at all. It was the longest and saddest walk of my life... I might have even cried a little at one point (and I've walked dozens of miles at a pop with a 60lb pack).

I take two bottles with plans on refilling at some point. I get through them all. Some will say they can make do swallowing their spit or catching errant raindrops on their tonque... manly men. On a hot day I'll get though 3 bottles easily. If it's a ride in the boonies, you never know when you're gonna hit an oasis. Better to get home with some leftovers.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by danfoz [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
All it takes is one of these incidents and you'll never leave home unprepared again.

50 miles can be a very different ride depending on the intensity. Some will no doubt try to bolster there insecurities by saying they can do that on just breakfast and a few sips of water. Manly men no doubt but nothing useful will come from that advice.

Better to get home with some leftovers.

I can still remember my first lesson back in 2005. Wow!! I had never heard the word Bonk until that day and then I not only learned a new cycling word I received a full dose of practical experience.

From that time forward I carry more than I need and have been able to help a few that received their first lesson.

My Saturday rides are typically around 80 mile routes so I carry plenty of food, water, extra tubes, cash, and items. Plus I develop routes that have stores along the way as well.

I have friends that like to play the sleek looking aero racer with minimal supplies on a training ride. They are typically fortunate not to have issues, but I am not taking that chance on a long distance training/recreational ride.

Congrats on the 50 miler... It's always fun at first but you'll get used to the distance.

If you're an averaged size guy then look to consume about 250Kcals per hour on the bike per hour. That can be in the form of energy drinks, gels or real food. The energy drink route is easiest on the bike as it also takes care of meeting your fluid requirements too which are just as important. If you're going on a 4 hour ride, consider reducing the concentration of engery drink and supplementing with something solid if consuming energy drinks alone makes your stomach feel a little odd.

I like Hammer perpetuem when on the bike and for me it works well. It starts tasting a little odd after 8 hours but it works so I deal with it... but the best engery drink is one that works for you, is something that you'll readily drink and doesn't give you any stomach woes. Try a few different brands but there is a common theme - carbohydrate is king. Protien supplementation may be beneficial. What tastes good in the kitchen before the ride may end up tasting fairly repulsive after 2 hard hours on the bike in the heat...

If you find you're still feeling overly tired at the end of a 50 mile ride and you can honestly say it's not due to lack of training then try increasing the food a little. The reason for saying 250Kcal earlier is that when you're exercising, digesting masses of food can be difficult and can lead to undesirable results.

You'll also need to drink enough - and this depends on your current state of hydration at the start of the ride and the temp/humidity outside during the ride. Even when well hydrated I can go through a 24oz bottle of chilled drink in about an hour in 95+F summer heat when riding on flat roads. On long hills that bottle will go down a bit quicker. Because of this, for longer summer rides my training bike has the usual two bottle cages as well as two behind the seatpost. Sure, it makes the bike look like [censored] but I don't care when I reach back for that bottle after 2 hours and liquid refreshment is available. The current crop of insultated bottles work well. Standard bottles wrapped in aluminum foil stay cooler longer too. In hot weather consider making your drinks about an hour prior to the ride and putting them in the freezer.

Don't skimp on the meal before your ride either, especially if you're riding a couple of days in a row. Skimping on breakfast is normally not a good thing... If you are riding a couple of days in a row then eating plenty of carbs immediately after the ride is key. This can be something as simple as making an extra bottle and putting it in the fridge (or in a cooler in the trunk of your car) for after the ride. Hammer Recoverite is good - I dig mixing the chocolate and strawberry.

Thanks a lot everybody!

Sunday's group ride was tricky in that there was no single food stop or else I missed it. I latched on to one pack, then another, then... ouch. By then it was all rural roads -- crickets & grass (plus horses, ponds and trees, all quite beautiful...)

I am a manly man.

I do 62+ miles a day now. 2 water bottles. No food. I eat breakfast (a couple waffles, banana, milk) before I ride. I eat lunch (bean burritos and milk) when I get home.

In the summer time I drink a bottle of water every 45 minutes and it is not enough. But for the autumn water needs drop with the temperature.

Food is a management issue. If there was food on my route, I would stop, but there is no food. My 75 mile route has food stops at 30 and 45 miles. I make use of them.

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I should say that when I was young my 108 mile route has a food stop at 54 miles. 54 miles in 2:45 did not cause a bonk or lesser distress. A candy bar and sugary pop made a nice quick stop. The 54 miles back in 3:00 caused no problems.

But it is all in conditioning. If you train without food, you get better at it.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I am a manly man.

I do 62+ miles a day now. 2 water bottles. No food. I eat breakfast (a couple waffles, banana, milk) before I ride. I eat lunch (bean burritos and milk) when I get home.

In the summer time I drink a bottle of water every 45 minutes and it is not enough. But for the autumn water needs drop with the temperature.

Food is a management issue. If there was food on my route, I would stop, but there is no food. My 75 mile route has food stops at 30 and 45 miles. I make use of them.

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I should say that when I was young my 108 mile route has a food stop at 54 miles. 54 miles in 2:45 did not cause a bonk or lesser distress. A candy bar and sugary pop made a nice quick stop. The 54 miles back in 3:00 caused no problems.

But it is all in conditioning. If you train without food, you get better at it.

Absolute BS. You don't get better at riding without the necessary caloric intake. Nice try, but the whole "stud" think doesn't seem to be working for you.

OP: Your issues could have been both food and pace related. Successful completion of long rides is a matter of juggling both. You have to be careful not to jump to one of those groups that is pedaling beyond what pace you can maintain.

For the record, in cool temps, 3 water bottles, some with energy stuff and some with electrolytes only (like Nuun), last 40-45 miles. When it gets hot in the desert, the duration can drop to 30-35. As for eats, I'll carry a Clif bar if I'm going over 40 miles. If it's going to be much longer--over, say, 60-70 miles--I might carry a PB&J or a PB&banana. Unfortunately, there's going to be no fixed answer for you found on a forum. You're going to have to experiment to find out how your liquid and food needs vary with distance, effort, and temperature/humidity. Swampy's estimate of average caloric intake is probably a good place to start, but don't think of it as something written in stone.

I am convinced you can train your body to use fuel more effeciently and I am not alone in that theory. Can you do without food and water? No, but everyone is different and some do it better than others.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by alienator [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Absolute BS. You don't get better at riding without the necessary caloric intake. Nice try, but the whole "stud" think doesn't seem to be working for you.

According to your story:

Glycogen stores are about 2000 calories. At 600-700cal/hour. They are gone by 3 hours. Eating 250cal/hr gives one 1 hour more riding. So everyone who rides hard bonks after 4 hours.

It appears that reality disagrees with you.

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By the way I always ride with the necessary caloric intake. It just happens to be less than what you claim.

For the OP's benefit, there is truth to what the old guy and others indicate. The body can be trained to use resources more efficiently. At lower intensities the body metabolizes more fat as fuel. As one approaches threshold it's almost all glucose. Many years ago, the 7-11 team used to put in hundreds of relatively slow miles each week (below 65% of maxHR) for this adaptation alone, or at least according to Andy Hamsten they did.

One can pace themselves so they don't need to refuel often. Or, if they enjoy can ride faster and refuel accordingly. That said if one likes to hammer and engage in such jeuvenile antics as chasing their buddies, glycogen stores deplete more quickly (Edit: I am one for such jeuvenile antics [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]). However, like riding 50 miles in 3 hours, ranking up in the peanut gallery is almost exclusively a fat burning exercise, and can be enjoyed by many ad infinitum, or ad nauseum, depending on perspective.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by alienator [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Swampy's estimate of average caloric intake is probably a good place to start, but don't think of it as something written in stone.

That's all it is - an estimate. It'll help you get through the rides without ending up bonking severely and at the same time will probably not lead to gastric distress either. When you're trying to hit the upper limits of your ability to ride at a given power for that duration you may find a bit of extra sustenance is required, if you're going out for a 3 hour easy spin to smell the roses then maybe you'll need a bit less. Your mileage WILL vary - literally.

I remember when Doug Dailey was the National Coach for the British Cycling Federation back in the 80's and very early 90's. He'd have the road lads off on training camp in somewhere really toasty warm, like southern Spain and have them ride for a couple of hours without food and very little water to "get them better prepared for racing in the heat." Needless to say British Cycling went through a very lean spell with very little in the way of results...

Not fueling properly doesn't just effect that particular ride it also effects recovery. One good quote from Peter Keen, the successor to Mr Dailey and someone whose methods started to bring medals back to British Cycling in a big way, is "The body does not get fitter through exercise; it gets fitter through recovering from exercise". Post ride, you could be looking at consuming 1 to 1.5g of carbohydrate per Kg of body weight within 30 minutes.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

According to your story:

Glycogen stores are about 2000 calories. At 600-700cal/hour. They are gone by 3 hours. Eating 250cal/hr gives one 1 hour more riding. So everyone who rides hard bonks after 4 hours.

It appears that reality disagrees with you.

----

By the way I always ride with the necessary caloric intake. It just happens to be less than what you claim.

When you put out ~700cal an hour riding, your body doesn't forget about doing all the other stuff required to stay alive.

I'm beginning to think that yours does though...

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

According to your story:

Glycogen stores are about 2000 calories. At 600-700cal/hour. They are gone by 3 hours. Eating 250cal/hr gives one 1 hour more riding. So everyone who rides hard bonks after 4 hours.

It appears that reality disagrees with you.

----

By the way I always ride with the necessary caloric intake. It just happens to be less than what you claim.

Nope. It appears you just make assumptions.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by jhuskey [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I am convinced you can train your body to use fuel more effeciently and I am not alone in that theory. Can you do without food and water? No, but everyone is different and some do it better than others.

A body becoming more efficient isn't the same as "getting better at it", and it's pretty much stupid to ride without calories to improve how you ride without food. Never said everyone isn't different. In fact if you read it again, I said, "Unfortunately, there's going to be no fixed answer for you found on a forum. You're going to have to experiment to find out how your liquid and food needs vary with distance, effort, and temperature/humidity."

I have always had the impression that being more effecient was essentially the same as getting better. Imagine my new found confusion.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by jhuskey [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I have always had the impression that being more effecient was essentially the same as getting better. Imagine my new found confusion.

No, it's not. You can get stronger and not be more efficient. One is a matter of directed force, power, and the other is a measure of losses in the system. Take an engine. Make it twice as big. It'll likely make more power. Will it be more efficient? No. Is it possible to get more efficient and stronger? Yup, but they're not the same. Imagine that.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by swampy1970 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

That's all it is - an estimate. It'll help you get through the rides without ending up bonking severely and at the same time will probably not lead to gastric distress either. When you're trying to hit the upper limits of your ability to ride at a given power for that duration you may find a bit of extra sustenance is required, if you're going out for a 3 hour easy spin to smell the roses then maybe you'll need a bit less. Your mileage WILL vary - literally.

I believe the original poster was talking about his first 50 mile ride. 600-700cal/hr is most likely a reasonable estimate of his needs. As you say he could ride all day long without eating (much).

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But if you need to eat while riding, feel free to do it.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I am a manly man.

I do 62+ miles a day now. 2 water bottles. No food. I eat breakfast (a couple waffles, banana, milk) before I ride. I eat lunch (bean burritos and milk) when I get home.

In the summer time I drink a bottle of water every 45 minutes and it is not enough. But for the autumn water needs drop with the temperature.

Food is a management issue. If there was food on my route, I would stop, but there is no food. My 75 mile route has food stops at 30 and 45 miles. I make use of them.

---

I should say that when I was young my 108 mile route has a food stop at 54 miles. 54 miles in 2:45 did not cause a bonk or lesser distress. A candy bar and sugary pop made a nice quick stop. The 54 miles back in 3:00 caused no problems.

But it is all in conditioning. If you train without food, you get better at it.

Old Guy, 62 miles a day is 434 miles a week, or 22,600 miles a year. That's quite a feat. You could probably handle a brevet series up to 1200K non-stop without any additional training. Do you have any reason to ride this much, ie, are you training for brevets, or just don't like staying home? Personally, I get tired somewhere around 150 miles/week, but at 64 I'm likely older than you. Sure, I do more on tour weeks, but week-in/week-out find that 150 miles per week is enough to peg my fun meter.

My experience has been that when I ride without food, ie, start carb-deprived from dieting and then don't eat during the ride, I bonk after a couple of hours on a hard group ride. I can ride easily, by myself, without worrying about fuel, but at higher heartrate and output, I seem to go through the energy reserves pretty quickly.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by dhk2 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Old Guy, 62 miles a day is 434 miles a week, or 22,600 miles a year. That's quite a feat. You could probably handle a brevet series up to 1200K non-stop without any additional training. Do you have any reason to ride this much, ie, are you training for brevets, or just don't like staying home? Personally, I get tired somewhere around 150 miles/week, but at 64 I'm likely older than you. Sure, I do more on tour weeks, but week-in/week-out find that 150 miles per week is enough to peg my fun meter.

My experience has been that when I ride without food, ie, start carb-deprived from dieting and then don't eat during the ride, I bonk after a couple of hours on a hard group ride. I can ride easily, by myself, without worrying about fuel, but at higher heartrate and output, I seem to go through the energy reserves pretty quickly.

I am almost 63. I expect 1800 miles this month. I miss a day from time to time and 2 weeks every few months (vacation with my wife). I think I have a short vacation coming up after the 15th - no bicycling. I have a vacation at Christmas - might get in some time on the California "hills." I expect to be doing 100miles/day most of next year.

I have bad knees from a car/bicycle accident a couple years ago. Bicycling keeps the pain down.

I have no interest in doing events or competitions.

I am pleased that you have fun riding the amount you do. I suspect that you are happy eating on your rides. No need for you to change.