winter program critique

I don't know about anyone else, but I can't see the training plan. If you sum it up, I (and others) might be able to give you some advice.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by CalicoCat [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I don't know about anyone else, but I can't see the training plan. If you sum it up, I (and others) might be able to give you some advice.

I can read it, but wouldn't recommend it to many folks.

It leans heavily to HIIT work with a steady diet of four minute intervals, typically three rest days per week and a 2.5 hour endurance ride on the weekend to round things out. Here's a direct link to the file: http://www.training4cyclists.com/wintertraining.pdf

To the OP, I'd strongly suggest searching these forums and the internet in general for information on SST (Sweet Spot Training) as a way to build sustainable power over the winter and lay the foundation for future development. Basically ride a lot at an intensity that's solid training but not so intense that you're fried all the time and too burnt out mentally or physically to train at five or six days per week.

There's plenty of discussion on these boards alone on how to structure a plan like that and some of the tradeoffs over more traditional LSD (Long Slow/Steady Distance) winter training in terms of time to train and cycling goals.

Good luck,
-Dave

Thank you for the answer! 'Sweet spot training' on this forum only gives two hits.. But as I understand it is mean training longer intervals app. 20 min at maybe 85% HRM and then doing that more frequently?

Have you maybe got a link to at better program - about 12-15 hours/week - or could you give an example?

Here is one place for an explanation of SST fascatcoaching.comtempotraining.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

To the OP, I'd strongly suggest searching these forums and the internet in general for information on SST (Sweet Spot Training) as a way to build sustainable power over the winter and lay the foundation for future development. Basically ride a lot at an intensity that's solid training but not so intense that you're fried all the time and too burnt out mentally or physically to train at five or six days per week.

What is the rationale for not following the programme? Evidence that L5 gains tend to taper off after 5-6 weeks in the literature or the mentally demanding nature of doing efforts?

Fergie,

Both those reasons plus I haven't had nearly as much success personally or working with team mates on sustained 'pull up' approaches vs. sustained 'push up' training.

The plan linked has rider's doing two mid week days of L5 work as various flavors of 'aerobic power' workouts which are all 3 to 5 minute intervals alternating with three midweek rest days. Saturday is 'power sprinting' which isn't rigorously defined but is clearly L7 work and then one weekend day of 2.5-3.5 hours of 'endurance group ride'.

This might be an interesting approach to pre-season prep after some form of base building but I wouldn't recommend this as a way to build that winter base. Too much intensity too far away from competition periods, too many rest days, too little CTL for winter work IMO.

I'm definitely a fan of Lydiard/Coggan/Howe style SST/L4 base building and a push up approach especially during the early portions of winter base building. For someone looking for a first time base building plan I definitely wouldn't suggest the HIIT approach linked from both mental and physiological perspectives.

Just my two cents worth,
-Dave

P.S. To the OP, search SST and you'll get many pages of hits, also check out the link above and this primer by Charles Howe that's given in power terms but you don't need a power meter to use these approaches you just need to do the sort of work he advocates: http://velodynamics2.webs.com/rcgtp1.pdf

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Both those reasons plus I haven't had nearly as much success personally or working with team mates on sustained 'pull up' approaches vs. sustained 'push up' training.

Thanks for your guidance because what you have been posting on this forum for a few years and how I have been applying that in my own schedule I am starting to see a very positive impact.
Consistent application of "Time at level" (L3/SST/L4) seems to be really working for me.

Thanks Dave

You had me at Lydiard

KiwiFergie

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
I'm definitely a fan of Lydiard/Coggan/Howe style SST/L4 base building and a push up approach especially during the early portions of winter base building. For someone looking for a first time base building plan I definitely wouldn't suggest the HIIT approach linked from both mental and physiological perspectives.

I somewhat agree with that but not to the extent that it should be just for early portions of winter base building - if that's what you may have been alueding to. That approach, if done correctly, is massively effective at building threshold power at any point of the season and that the big limiters for most people is the self induced monotony that such training should always be within specific zones. Personally, if I want to do 2.5 hours of high end L3, I might to do 3 hours in the hills and not worry about forcing the pace on the descents - just so I don't have to think "I need to ride for x time and therefore I must gaze at my handlebar computer and ride at exactly that pace of X hours"

But I think it should be pointed out that there's nothing stoping someone from going out and having some fun from time to time - either at the end of a good hard L3/L4 session or on a seperate day and just go out blasting up hills really fecking hard for no other reason than it's really really good fun. It's almost like that in the text books, the fun has been taken out of it and there's no foot note that says "if you've got the legs, have at it bucko." I spent this weekend at a "cycling clinic", which was pretty informative, but on talking about training with power with a couple of other riders I got the impression that they're almost afraid to push the boundaries if they're feeling super-strong during a session. To me, that's like a "open season" invitation to raise the bar and see what's on tap... and that the extra effort is good for both the head and legs.

HIIT approach... I just got done farting around with a little javascript program to help me keep track of intervals when I'm on the trainer and I put in my old coaches gnarliest interval training session. My knees trembled... bad memories were brought back and the taste of pre-puke acid in the back of the throat appeared via a psychosomatic response. LOL

5 minutes warm up.
1 x 5 minutes with 1 minute rest.
2 minutes rest.
5 x 2 mintes with 1 minute rest.
2 minutes rest.
10 x 1 minutes with 1 minute rest.
2 minutes rest.
12 x 30 second with 30 seconds rest.
The end...

Effective? Yes. Massively effective for road races and hilly time trials. Fun? Yes, if you're the kinda guy that loved to stab themselves in the legs with a rusty knife and pour salt and vinegar into the wound.

Would this be better:

Mon: 1 hr recovery
Tue: 2 hr zone 2 - incl 2x20 min zone 4
Wed: 1,5 hr VO2 intervals
Thur: 2,5 hr zone 2 - incl 2x20 zone 4
Fri: off
Sat: 3,5-4,5 hr zone 2
Sun: 3,5-4,5 hr zone 2

I'd say it's better than the plan originally linked, but still not my preferred approach.

But yeah, a lot of folks do something like this although many find a three day block with L4, L5, L4 might be hard to sustain for very long.

Read the linked doc by Charles Howe, do the SST searches, read the 'It's Killing me..." thread.

But what you've linked is a blend of LSD winter base building with a large weekly percentage at L2 with some SST/L4 emphasis and the L5 work thrown in if you can actually do it. If you've got the time to do all the L2 work described it can definitely work but many folks have found they can dole out their time, energy and ability to recover better with more of an SST/L4 emphasis. There's still room for some longer rides in a plan like that but they don't have to happen all the time and rides up to three hours or more can still be done in L3 vs. L2.

But there are many ways and many philosophies when it comes to training. What you've posted aint half bad in my opinion (other than the possible reality check to your midweek block) but I've had the best results with less L2 and more L3/L4 especially for laying down winter base.

YMMV,
-Dave

Thanks for the clarifying answer!

Now i know what to do for the night - reading 'it's killing me..' 😉