Winter Training

There isn't a physiological reason to avoid L3-L5 intensity in the winter. More a psychological one. Group rides or even group indoor sessions may be the go to keep the intensity there than just slaving to the power meter.

What is your maximum power? A threshold at 67% of your max power would be pretty remarkable or is this Max Aerobic Power?

ah, yes, i was tested in the lab at 213 watts at threshold and 315 MAP so my threshold is 67% of MAP. I have tested myself since getting a new power meter at 255 watts in a 20 min threshold test so I estimate that FTP is 233 now for my zones using this power meter. So i am just wondering based on where I am at what is the best plan for winter. Just keep riding steady at Z1 / Z2 or to start and try to increase FTP by doing sweet spot or tempo / threshold sessions. I am currently 182lbs so my power to weight is not good. Last season I struggled on any incline especially when riding in a group / race. So I have a lot of work to do and want to make the most of my 7 to 9 hours a week.

I do a lot of intensity (and on-the-bike strength training) over the winter, indoors on a trainer because of where I live.

Winter is actually a great time to build, because you can break yourself down a bit without having to worry about recovering in time for competition (or competition getting in the way of a training plan).

With racing in mind I would be looking at more L4-L5 work over the winter trying to lift the threshold higher. But staying fresh through the winter is key which is why I suggest group trainer session of group rides if weather permits. Use others to push yourself harder and avoid getting too competitive (or at least hung up on performances). I think if you do a little each day and a couple of harder sessions you will come through the winter fresh and ready to get stuck into the racing.

With the limited amount of time you have I'd drop anything Z1 or lower (Rec). Unless you plan on getting your butt used to sitting in the saddle for a Race Across America type event, it's not going to be the best use of your time.

Monday - L3 60 mins
Tuesday - OFF
Wednesday - 2 x 20 min L4
Thursday - L2 60 to 90 mins
Friday - 2 x 20 min L4
Saturday - Off
Sunday - L2/L3 120 mins or MTB XC Race

Is there a reason for taking Saturday off, such as work or a family commitment? If your schedule was put like that just for "training purposes" I'd drop Friday and train Saturday with some good hard L2/L3 just like Sunday and making Monday a bit easier. That would give you two good long hard rides, back to back out on the road in daylight.

If you plan on doing rides/races of more than a few hours during the season then you may consider keeping Sundays ride the same intensity but taking it out to 3 hours if time permits.
The L2/L3 sessions are great for getting some really good hard miles in, especially if you take it beyond 2 hours and will definitely help you lose weight. Losing weight should actually be higher up the winter training totem pole than adding more firepower to the arsenal but those long Level2 bordering on L3 sessions will, with sensible eating both on and off the bike, get rid of that weight in short order. Unless you're 6ft + then 182lbs is more than a bit much to be dragging up any sort of incline - trust me, that experience is burned in my brain. With that in mind, one of my late winter favorites the past couple of years was the 90 minutes of trainer induced pain and suffering - 3 x 25 minutes with 5 minutes inbetween. Ridden not a million miles away from threshold. Fun? Not at all. Brutally effective? You bet... but it's one of those sessions that'll seriously "do your head in" unless you have a goal that's got your interest.

If you get lots of L3 in, then it doesn't take a lot of L4 and L5 work to sharpen the fitness and if you start that around the end of December or start of January then it'll give you a few months to build a nice level of fitness from lots of hard training.

My early winter training is rather simple.
Saturday and Sunday: 2.5 to 3 hours L3
Tuesday: 90 to 120 minutes L3 with a fair chunk of L4
Thursday: 90 to 120 minutes L3/L4

The other 3 days are usually recovery and 'getting stuff done' days, as the weekends rides normally leave me a bit stuffed. Depending on work and current mood the mid week sessions may spend a little time in one level than the other - an easy day at work and a good mood makes for sore legs the day after. That training will change when I don't have enough hours midweek to get 90 minutes in outdoors, then those sessions will be 3x25minutes in the garage. Mid December things will change again with the weekend rides getting a little harder and the mid week rides becoming shorter and harder.

Remember that "Levels" are only a guide and it may be prudent to start off at the lower end of a given level. If you find yourself suffering much more than expected, back off a bit and take a breather before resuming at a lower intensity. It may take a while to get the effort for the longer duration rides nailed down.

hi all thanks for some great answers

first of all i was just looking for some confirmation that keeping some intensity over the winter is the way to go, and all of you seem to confirm that, and also that going on group rides where I will probably suffer more compared to others on the rolling roads is OK too

my races will probably mostly be under two hours as distances vary from about 25 to 40 miles mostly so then there probably is less importance on "getting the miles in" ???

you all seem to agree that raising my threshold is very important, my on-road threshold is only 233 watts and on the indoor trainer is even less, only 220 watts, and at 182lbs and 5"10" it is not a good ratio

i am working on my weight also, I have come down from 190lbs over the past 8 or 9 weeks, not by dieting but by changing what i eat, less sugars, no white carbs all brown carbs, etc so i hope by next season to be going a lot better if i am lighter and also have increased my power and threshold

thanks swampy1970 for adjusting the schedule, to answer your question i find it hard to get out on both saturday and sunday, so tend to change my week around to allow for that, i could do a club run on a tuesday night instead of a day off which could replace the traditional weekend club run, then the rest of the week work around that so effectively mon and tues could be my "weekend" i could move the day off to a wednesday and do one of the 2 x 20's at the weekend

so i assume the 2x20's are the big threshold improvers, is there anything i should be doing to try and improve MAP also or will it also increase with these sessions

i know all the key phrases from reading but maybe do not understand fully yet how to put things together so they work so thanks for the help

i only have just got a power meter and getting used to riding with it, and i am definately not fully up-to-speed on how to analysise the results etc yet

Level 4 work is riding at threshold - and that's the meat 'n taters of 2x20. It hurts... but it's effective. You train to race - so you should really spend some time training at the intensity that you race at.

Even events like the Kilo on the track are mainly aerobic. Without lots of good, honest, hard aerobic training you basically have nothing.

I tend to think of the long L2 and L3 sessions as great building blocks of which everything else is built upon - these are not long club runs in 42x17 and whistling Dixie - they'll hurt if done right and for long enough. Remember - that you train to race, so gear up appropriately and no loafing around resting your hands on the tops of the bars when riding on the flats. I remember ye olde English club runs as being fun but long and cold and didn't do anything with regards for training. 100 miles in 6 hours which included a stop for egg on toast 'n baked beans and a cuppa tea. Racing life was better when Saturday and Sunday changed to 2 to 3 hours spuds out at ~best 50 mile TT pace. Monday was a [censored]...

... don't forget that harder training will probably require you to keep careful tabs on how tired you might get. It's all well and good smashing your brains out but you'll get nothing from it unless you're recovering to a certain degree. Just don't expect to feel fresh every day though.

If you have a nice base of L3 work then supplementing that with increasing amounts of L4 and topping it all off with L5 and higher will reap big sustainable gains. Personally, I've found that not getting that quality base in usually leads to erratic form and gains during the racing season that are hard to keep. YMMV. The other advantage of a big base of L3 work is that you get to a point where you can push yourself harder for longer - whether that "longer" is riding flat out in a 10mile TT or trying to hang onto wheels in a 60 mile road race for the last hour in the belief that you've only got the legs to last "just another minute" but that minute turns into a hour.

I have been riding now for almost a year now, with avg weekly milage of 110 miles and avg HR at 75% of max. Looking back most of my solo rides would have been L2 endurance or L3 tempo rides. I had just been riding steady and when i felt like it, with some club races and TT's over the summer. So i am only really starting to do serious and structured training now. So is the riding I have done already OK to count as a base, or do I need to do a period of proper base training before starting the L4 and higher sessions.
Sounds also as if my idea of base training is wrong. I assumed base training was riding steady at L1 and L2 and taking it easy on hills. And then that L3 and L4 work was introduced before moving on to even higher intensities.
So my question now is am I OK to get stuck into a program like you have outlined above with the L3 and 2 x 20 L4 work. This together with some MTB XC races during October and November are OK for my level and at this time of the year ? My focus is really to be a fit as possible for the road races and TT's next year so do i compromise it my doing the MTB XC races ? I would like to have an idea of how long I would stick to this type of program before then having to up the game again and start even higher intensities.
Sorry for maybe asking stupid questions or maybe even the wrong questions. I just really need to know where I should start at my level of fitness and how I should progress this as I get fitter, stronger, and as the season approaches.

I actually prefer to work the L4/L5/L6 in the off. Short and sharp workouts, bucket at the ready. Seems to help keep FTP at a decent level, good for entering into the early season short crits and TTs and then work the longer rides when the weather is more clement.

It is clear from all the answers so far that keeping the intensity is the way to go. So I would hope to do something like what swampy1970 has suggested, L3 session x 2, L4 2x20 session x 2 and maybe a longer L2/L3 session x 1 could be a group ride. This is more intense work than I was planning, but seems sensible now that I know a little more about what others are doing over the winter. I have done some power tests, just wondering if anyone here has any comments on them. My average recorded power during a 20 min turbo test was 245 watts and during a 20 min road test was 255 watts. On the road my power test for 5 min is 309, for 1 min is 444 and for 15 sec is 803. While I have done these tests I don't really know what they tell me, or how they will help me ? I do know that last year I struggles so it is obvious that I need to make a lot of improvement. Can anyone comment on my power figures, weaknesses and any strengths, if there is anything in particular that needs improving to be able to compete initially at Cat 4, and if the plan above will deal with the issues that I need addressed. I am hoping to get from current weight of 182lbs to about 168lbs before next March / April.

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Originally Posted by uptheswa [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Sounds also as if my idea of base training is wrong. I assumed base training was riding steady at L1 and L2 and taking it easy on hills.

L1 - that's recovery pace, which in the old school way of thinking was about the same pace as most club runs where the guys would get the miles in pedalling small gears. Great for the social aspect - not so great if you want stop your theshold power from flushing itself down the toilet.

L2 - done properly, you'll be feeling it after a couple of hours. Solid endurance training. If your threshold is around 230 to 235 then this would be somewhere around 160 to 170watts for you. The first hour will seem easy but by the time you get to 2.5 hours you'll be feeling it. Sure, you'd get some benefit by riding at say 140watts (weight loss, time out on the bike enjoying the sights, sounds and smells etc etc) but as far as efficiently progressing... not so great.

L3 - tempo. 180 to 210ish watts for you and somewhere between 1 to 3 hours is "the norm" for this one. I can tell when training is going well when at 2hrs the legs are still feeling fairly good - at that point it's time to either push out the duration or up the power a bit.

If you build a base from a good mix of L2 and L3 then you'll have a good aerobic foundation to progress from - plus at those levels, training will be hard but not so hard that you can't adapt to spending more time training in your racing position, which if you're a road racing foolio means a chunk of time in the drops or hunkering down low on the brake hoods a la "Mr Paris-Roubaix" De Vlaeminck.

You spend time developing power to go faster via more power... might as well spend time training to become used to a position that requires less power, no?

... I'm guessing this position didn't happen overnight, nor did his ability to get that 53x12 over at a fair rate of knots.
[IMG]cyclingforums.com500Open ↗[/IMG]

Aye that was back in the day when men were men and sheep were very afraid...

I have had a look over the last few longer road rides lasting up to 2.5 hours that I have done. The time I am spending in each zone is pretty steady and a typical ride looks like as follows Z1 - 25% Z2 - 19% Z3 - 17% Z4 - 13% Z5 - 10% Z6 - 16% Time in Z1 will be warm up, warm down and probably coasting downhill. But I am spending quite a bit of time at Z2 and above so this looks OK. I will have time in Z5 and Z6 because there are no flat routes around here, plenty of rolling roads and sharp hills.

Also, looking at my critical power figures, while my 20 min figure is low, my 1 min figure is shockingly bad. Do I just keep working on the 20 min threshold power for now and worry about 15sec, 1 min, and 5 min power closer to the season start ?

Oh, and I do ride in a position similar to De Vlaeminck, how did you know lol I dont use the drops as often as I should probably but I do get very low when on the hoods just like in the picture

I wouldn't worry about 1min power till the season cranks up. That power comes up pretty quick. 5MP tends to come up over 4-6 weeks so I would suggest focus on 20MP and higher over the winter period. A little L5-L7 will not hurt either but the L3-L4 should be the bread and butter training zones.

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Originally Posted by uptheswa [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
... I dont use the drops as often as I should probably but I do get very low when on the hoods just like in the picture...

An effective aerodynamic position is effective and aerodynamic. There is no "right" or "wrong".

Thanks again for all you answers, because of them I am happy now to ignore what I have heard and read about training at east pace in L1 and L2 and hopefully most of my training now will be higher L2/L3 and higher. I would plan now to try and do two sessions of 2 x 20 or similar workouts targeting FTP, and my longer rides will try to ride a little harder and keep in higher L2/L3. I think for now L5 and L6 will get touched on in any group rides I do, as most others are more capable riders than me just now, and when we hit the hills I will find myself in the higher zones. Do you think two days rest is too much. Is it even worthwhile riding a 6th day at recovery level to aid recovery, or if I can ride a 6th day should it be a proper workout ?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by uptheswa [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Thanks again for all you answers, because of them I am happy now to ignore what I have heard and read about training at east pace in L1 and L2 and hopefully most of my training now will be higher L2/L3 and higher. I would plan now to try and do two sessions of 2 x 20 or similar workouts targeting FTP, and my longer rides will try to ride a little harder and keep in higher L2/L3. I think for now L5 and L6 will get touched on in any group rides I do, as most others are more capable riders than me just now, and when we hit the hills I will find myself in the higher zones. Do you think two days rest is too much. Is it even worthwhile riding a 6th day at recovery level to aid recovery, or if I can ride a 6th day should it be a proper workout ?

Start without and see how you feel. If you haven't been doing much in the way of structured training in the past then training regularly will help immensely.

It's great to have a bunch of enthusiasm but sometime reality gives you a big smack in the face when after a week your legs feel like they'd been smashed by a steamroller because you bit off too much. It takes time to increase quality, quantity AND be able to recover from it. If you don't recover from the sessions to a certain degree you'll not progress.

If you have bags of spare time then go for a gentle ride out but if you're pushed for time, spending it with the rest of the family may pay dividends when it comes to the racing season. 😉

I find it better to train harder during my 4 sessions per week when I progress. When it gets to the point where I need more volume, it's easier to tack on an extra set of 20 minutes or stay out for an extra 30 to 60 minutes. OK, it's harder on me but works out better for "the family". When I do that I need those 3 days off.

thanks swampy1970, you have a good way to explain things, and I am more satisfied now with how i should progress so with the time available to me I should forget low intensity work and concentrate on higher intensities and i also need to be careful to get enough rest and recovery based on this it looks like I should try maybe 2 sessions of 2x20 or 3x15 or 4x10 or similar aimed at improving my threshold maybe one or maybe two L3/L4 rides and a group ride or MTB /XC race, which will probably be L3/L4 and with some L5 and L6 thrown in that will be 4 or 5 days on with two or three days recovery then if I find that I still feel fresh and can cope OK, I could make sure to do 5 days on and two days off, and if time permits maybe increase the time out on a couple of the rides I hope that I have understood correctly and that this type of plan is what you all were proposing how long should I try this for, when will I know that it is time to change the plan, or can this type of weekly sessions take me right through to closer to the new season and if I am starting off now with a FTP of 233 should my 2x20's be in the range of 220-245 ? when will i know to increase this, should I do a test every few weeks ? oh, and according to the power profile chart, i am at best Cat 5 and almost in the untrained category. With an FTP of 233 and weight of 83kg that is 2.8/kg which is very low.It looks like even if I can lose some weight I will also need to increase power to between 290 and 310. I assume that this is going to be very very hard. Is there anything else I should be doing now to help me achieve this before next March / April ?

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thanks swampy1970, you have a good way to explain things

Thanks. I tend to use punctuation too - but not always correctly.[IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]

Quoted post said:

and I am more satisfied now with how i should progress so with the time available to me I should forget low intensity work and concentrate on higher intensities and i also need to be careful to get enough rest and recovery based on this it looks like I should try maybe 2 sessions of 2x20 or 3x15 or 4x10 or similar aimed at improving my threshold maybe one or maybe two L3/L4 rides and a group ride or MTB /XC race, which will probably be L3/L4 and with some L5 and L6 thrown in that will be 4 or 5 days on with two or three days recovery then if I find that I still feel fresh and can cope OK, I could make sure to do 5 days on and two days off, and if time permits maybe increase the time out on a couple of the rides I hope that I have understood correctly and that this type of plan is what you all were proposing how long should I try this for, when will I know that it is time to change the plan, or can this type of weekly sessions take me right through to closer to the new season

I'd stick with 4 days of training to start with and take it from there. If you want to ride on the other days feel free, there's no hard and fast rule that says you can't but don't ride hard. I'm a firm believer in keeping things simple and sticking to the plan - as long as the plan leads to a goal. Having a goal is key as it keeps you motivated during those rides where you're not feeling the best.

How long do you want to do this for? Well, if you have no pressing immediate goals then I'd give it at least 12 weeks. The L3 training will help with weight loss providing you don't over eat. 2 hours of L3 and you'll get through a few calories... just try not to put them all back in. [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]

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and if I am starting off now with a FTP of 233 should my 2x20's be in the range of 220-245 ? when will i know to increase this, should I do a test every few weeks ?

I'd start around 210 to 220 and see how that feels. Better to start a little low and finish the sessions than start to hard and feel like quitting. You'll know when to increase it because the sessions will get easier for a given power output.

Two things to note:

1. Most people seem to have a lower FTP on the trainer when it comes time to move indoors.
2. You'll need a big fan when training indoors. The bigger the fan the better - you can never have too big.

If your powermeter has a requirement to follow a 'zero' or reset calibration procedure then follow it religiously. Also, don't forget that tires do lose air over time and loss of pressure reduces the pressure on the roller if you're using a trainer that holds the back of the bike in place.

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oh, and according to the power profile chart, i am at best Cat 5 and almost in the untrained category. With an FTP of 233 and weight of 83kg that is 2.8/kg which is very low.It looks like even if I can lose some weight I will also need to increase power to between 290 and 310. I assume that this is going to be very very hard. Is there anything else I should be doing now to help me achieve this before next March / April ?

Until you have experience with how you respond to training, I wouldn't put a goal on what power you wish to hit in a given time frame. It'll be what ever it ends up at... but with structured training and just enough rest there's a really good chance it'll be a fair bit higher than it was before. In a year or two you'll be able to look back and see how you respond to various types of training and have a more informed view of how to get to where you need (or would like) to be. Training Peaks WKO+ is a great program for keeping track of your training - if you haven't got it I'd look into getting it or something very similar.

I've been through a cyclical "lose weight/gain power followed by a lose power and gain weight" for the past few years... and this will be the first time that I've continued throughout the whole year since I quit racing 14 years ago - so I can feel your pain when it comes to having to increase power and lose weight at the same time but it's not rocket science, it's actually pretty simple. You follow a block of structured training - you get faster. You eat better (avoid junk and eat a suitable quanitity but avoiding excess) and you'll lose weight while training. The only other part left is making sure that you remain reasonably fresh and rested - I say "reasonably" because if you're really, really fresh then you've not gone hard enough during the training session. :P

... and remember, it's all fun and games... until you bonk on the Sunday ride 20 miles from home. [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Regards group rides, I know it is good to ride with people that are a little bit better and stronger than I am, but when does it become a case that if they are too strong, that it might be doing more harm than good to go riding with them. On Tuesday I went on a night group ride, 39 hilly miles, my TSS Score was 272 and intensity factor was 1.03, average power was 197 and NP was 241. Today I was out on a group ride, 50 rolling miles, my TSS Score was 273 and intensity factor was 0.977, average power was 188 and NP was 232. Are these type of group rides good, or are they too hard for me still ? I do really have to make myself suffer to hang in and it can be brutal on the hills, but I feel like I need to be riding with these people now, as they will only get faster and stronger over the winter, so if I am too compete with them next season, do I need to be able to ride with them now ? Looking at the figures from these rides, does it look like my last tested 20 min power at 255 watts ( so 232 threshold power ? )look slightly low ? ( only tested last week ) Love to hear what you guys think. Cheers