Campy BB - Square Taper?

Glenn Katon said:

I was surprised to learn that Campy still uses square taper BBs. Aren't splined BBs supposed to be
stiffer/stronger?

People have been using square-taper bottom brackets for 40 years. How long a trial period do you
need? Splined bottom brackets are, first and foremost, lighter. A bit lighter. Stiffer? Maybe, but
square taper are stiff enough.

Quoted message said:

I'm 210 lbs and put some hard torque down on the cranks - a couple of years ago I broke a BB
(ultegra) spindle in half in a crit. Sill, far stronger riders than I ride Campy so maybe I
shouldn't worry about it.

Maybe not.

However, if you prefer the Shimano splined bottom bracket -- or maybe ISIS, which is supposed to be
better, anyway, you can use that brand of cranks along with the remaining Campy components. Campy
front shifters will shift anything.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or _`\(,_ | that we are to
stand by the president right or wrong, is not (_)/ (_) | only unpatriotic and servile, but is
morally treasonable to the American public. --Theodore Roosevelt

Glenn Katon said:

I've been using Shimano components for as long as I've ridden and raced road bikes but want to
switch to Campy on a yet-to-be-acquired new frame. I was surprised to learn that Campy still uses
square taper BBs. Aren't splined BBs supposed to be stiffer/stronger? I'm 210 lbs and put some
hard torque down on the cranks - a couple of years ago I broke a BB (ultegra) spindle in half in a
crit. Sill, far stronger riders than I ride Campy so maybe I shouldn't worry about it.

Anyone know if there's any real evidence of which type of BB is stronger? Any other considerations
in terms of which to choose? Thanks for any insight. Glenn

Just because it is new doesn't necessarily make it better or preferred. And if you are leaning
toward one of the many new fat spindle systems, Campagnolo's equipment is compatible with all
cranks; you needn't use a Campagnolo crank if you don't want to. However, Campagnolo cranks and BBs
are a very good value, reasonably light weight and have reliability and performance equal to or
better than any.
--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

gkaton-<< I've been using Shimano components for as long as I've ridden and raced road bikes but
want to switch to Campy on a yet-to-be-acquired new frame. I was surprised to learn that Campy still
uses square taper BBs. Aren't splined BBs supposed to be stiffer/stronger? >><BR><BR>

Depends on the spline, no and no for shimano who is abandoning their octalink quickly.

I am amazed at the press this question gets. Chris Boardman whined about square taper in a bike test
recently. What problem needs to be solved, what question needs to be answered with regards to square
taper. They work, have for years. I guess the rush towards lighter, lighter drives some of this but
the results could be costly at worse, painful at worst.

gkaton<< I'm 210 lbs and put some hard torque down on the cranks - a couple of years ago I broke a
BB (ultegra) spindle in half in a crit. >><BR><BR>

No disrespect towards you but i doubt you generate the power a lot of sprinters/riders do, like
Cipo(with Saeco) and Zabel and Ullrich and they have never broken a Campagnolo BB.

gkaton<< Anyone know if there's any real evidence of which type of BB is stronger? >><BR><BR>

ISIS is a nice design but designed with huge imputs from the marketing department.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

ISIS is a nice design but designed with huge imputs from the marketing department.

Wasn't ISIS mostly a reaction to Shimano business practices and licensing fees associated with
Octalink? What aspects of the ISIS design came from the marketing department? In most cases the
marketing department has to create a spin AFTER a business decision has been made or a product has
already been designed. It's somewhat rare that marketing has much of a say in a business.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

I am amazed at the press this question gets. Chris Boardman whined about square taper in a bike
test recently. What problem needs to be solved, what question needs to be answered with regards to
square taper. They work, have for years.

What about the cranks wriggling up the taper with use and the limit on the diameter of the spindle
(which means they can never be all that stiff)? They're better than cotter pins but I wouldn't call
them the last word in engineering.

Maybe those one-piece BMX cranks aren't so bad after all - shame the bottom brackets that go with
them are usually so dire.

"rosco" <reverse-the-following"ocsor_g"@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

ISIS is a nice design but designed with huge imputs from the marketing department.

Wasn't ISIS mostly a reaction to Shimano business practices and licensing fees associated with
Octalink? What aspects of the ISIS design came from the marketing department? In most cases the
marketing department has to create a spin AFTER a business decision has been made or a product has
already been designed. It's somewhat rare that marketing has much of a say in a business.

Dirt Rag has a good article this month on the origins of ISIS:
dirtragmag.comarticle.phpOpen ↗

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Depends on the spline, no and no for shimano who is abandoning their

octalink

Quoted message said:

quickly.

Are they going back to square taper or do we need to prepare for another new, expensive, needless
Shimano standard.

Nate

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de :
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

nota-<< Are they going back to square taper or do we need to prepare for another new, expensive,
needless Shimano standard.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

They appear to going to the one piece crank thing ala XTR and DA, XT also

this

Quoted message said:

year, ultegra and probably LX next year...The only octalink left will be

105.

Quoted message said:

If ya have a XT or LX octalink crank(both with unique splines and lengths)

and

Quoted message said:

ya roach a BB ya are gonna be SOL.

Sorry for the ignorance, but the "one piece crank thing" - does this means like BMX cranks ? And did
I see something like a cotter-pin for securing the other side ? I have used Shimano, once in the
past, and the memories of the Crane/Santé days remains that replacement parts were never available,
and that design changes occured several times a year. Progress is cool, I guess ...

Bonne route,

Sandy Paris FR

Quoted message said:

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Malum consilium quod mutari non potest." - Publilius Syrus
On 24 Dec 2003 21:02:02 GMT, [email hidden] (Tom Paterson)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: John Dacey

Quoted message said:

Shimano-bashing doth restore us. Fa la la la la, la la, la, la!

Bash? Nope. Not here.

To the untrained observer, your ready assent to describing Shimano's newest cranks as "another new,
expensive, needless Shimano standard" could be misinterpreted as bashing. You are free to believe
that I took the time to write those spoofed carol lyrics specifically with your comments in mind,
but you'd be wrong. I meant it only as a lighthearted jibe at *anybody* whose fealty to particular
component mfrs sometimes gets in the way of remaining open to new designs.

Merry Christmas to all -

John

-------------------------------
John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida businesscycles.combusinesscycles.comOpen ↗ Now in our twenty-first
year. Our catalog of track equipment: eighth year online
-------------------------------

John Dacey said:

It is a source of continuing astonishment to me that subscribers to a usenet group ostensibly
interested in bike development are so often found to be allergic to new designs.

Would that "new" had something to do with innovation.

Quoted message said:

The problems long associated with square tapered cranks (spindly spindle proportions, inherently
destructive pressed-fit crank installation) are hardly something to which we should be clinging.

Any technology can be prone to failure from user error. "Press-fit" cranks are only inherently
destructive if they are repeatedly tightened, or installed without grease.

As far as the spindly spindle proportions, those result from the history of the machine. Any
real change in that situation should come along with larger bottom bracket diameters, not
external bearings.

Quoted message said:

between a bicycle crank and the bearing on which it spins. Each new attempt, however, has brought
some improvement over the preceeding

design,

You have an interesting faith in the inexorable progress of design. Let me introduce you to some
"improved designs": the Corvair, for example.

Quoted message said:

Anodize rims at your peril;

So, anodized rims are an example of improvement?

Quoted message said:

Don’t care much here ‘bout apparel. Fa la la la la, la la la la.

So, it's better to care much about the brand of your shorts?

Quoted message said:

Lighter, aero wheels and hardware;

Aero wheels are heavier than non-aero wheels.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | You will say Christ saith this and the apostles say this; but _`\(,_ | what canst thou say?
-- George Fox. (_)/ (_) |

Quoted message said:

John Dacey said:

It is a source of continuing astonishment to me that subscribers to a usenet group ostensibly
interested in bike development are so often found to be allergic to new designs.

David L. Johnson started off just fine when he said:

Would that "new" had something to do with innovation.

(jd)>> The problems long associated with square

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tapered cranks (spindly spindle proportions, inherently destructive pressed-fit crank
installation) are hardly something to which we should be clinging.

(DLJ)> Any technology can be prone to failure from user error. "Press-fit" cranks

Quoted message said:

are only inherently destructive if they are repeatedly tightened, or installed without grease. As
far as the spindly spindle proportions, those result from the history of the machine. Any real
change in that situation should come along with larger bottom bracket diameters, not external
bearings.

(JD)>>between a bicycle crank and the bearing on which it spins. Each new

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

attempt, however, has brought some improvement over the preceeding

design,

(DLK)> You have an interesting faith in the inexorable progress of design. Let

Quoted message said:

me introduce you to some "improved designs": the Corvair, for example.

-snip-

Hey! I resemble that remark!

--
Andrew Muzi, with coupe and convertible Corvair Corsas www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971

A Muzi said:

David L. Johnson started off just fine when he said:

Would that "new" had something to do with innovation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

me introduce you to some "improved designs": the Corvair, for example.

-snip-

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Oops. Corvair fanatics are a small, but zealous, lot.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | When you are up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember _`\(,_ | that your initial
objective was to drain the swamp. -- LBJ (_)/ (_) |

David L. Johnson said:

A Muzi said:

David L. Johnson started off just fine when he said:

Would that "new" had something to do with innovation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

me introduce you to some "improved designs": the Corvair, for example.

-snip-

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Oops. Corvair fanatics are a small, but zealous, lot.

An amazing number of Corvair owners in this industry, actually

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere."
On 26 Dec 2003 00:01:22 GMT, [email hidden] (Tom Paterson)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: John Dacey To the untrained observer, your ready assent to describing Shimano's newest
cranks as "another <snip> needless Shimano standard" could be misinterpreted as bashing.

Um, maybe a fine line, but "poking" at a pecadillo or two isn't "bashing",

Well, if you say it isn't, then who'm I to disagree. You can perhaps see how I mistook your
intention, though. <snip>

Quoted message said:

Well <snip> it does seem "needless" to me-- <snip> Otherwise, tapers or splines seem to work just
fine for most riders.

You (maybe inadvertently) highlight the point I've been trying to make. Although the incidence of
problems with competently installed Octalink, ISIS or square taper cranks are all statistically
small, that shouldn't mean that the search for an improved system should cease. You know - "the
enemy of good is: better" - that sort of thing.

I certainly respect that you may have found that the system you use now is "just fine" for your
particular needs. However, just because you're comfortable with the status quo doesn't mean that
*everyone* will share your assessment that further development is "needless".

-------------------------------
John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida businesscycles.combusinesscycles.comOpen ↗ Now in our twenty-first
year. Our catalog of track equipment: eighth year online
-------------------------------

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Would that "new" had something to do with innovation.
>me introduce you to some "improved designs": the Corvair, for example.
-snip- Hey! I resemble that remark!

Oops. Corvair fanatics are a small, but zealous, lot.

An amazing number of Corvair owners in this industry, actually

American cars do have a habit of convincing people of the merits of cycling.

[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

nota-<< Are they going back to square taper or do we need to prepare for another new, expensive,
needless Shimano standard.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

They appear to going to the one piece crank thing ala XTR and DA, XT also this year, ultegra and
probably LX next year...The only octalink left will be 105. If ya have a XT or LX octalink
crank(both with unique splines and lengths) and ya roach a BB ya are gonna be SOL.

In other words, prepare for another new, expensive, needless Shimano standard.

JP

John Dacey <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Malum consilium quod mutari non potest." - Publilius Syrus On 24 Dec 2003 21:02:02 GMT,

(Tom Paterson) said:

Quoted message said:

From: John Dacey

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Shimano-bashing doth restore us. Fa la la la la, la la, la, la!

Bash? Nope. Not here.

To the untrained observer, your ready assent to describing Shimano's newest cranks as "another
new, expensive, needless Shimano standard" could be misinterpreted as bashing. You are free to
believe that I took the time to write those spoofed carol lyrics specifically with your comments
in mind, but you'd be wrong. I meant it only as a lighthearted jibe at *anybody* whose fealty to
particular component mfrs sometimes gets in the way of remaining open to new designs.

I have no problem with being called a Shimano basher and would adopt this tune as my personal anthem
except for the relative triviality of the issue in the overall scheme of things.

I don't, OTOH, have any particular fealty to particular component mfrs, having lost interest in
Campy because their design aesthetics just don't do it for me anymore- I particularly like French
equipment these days. Too bad they don't make a derailleur anymore.

The problem with Shimano is a tradeoff- they make the tiniest, barely noticeable, incremental
improvements at a cost of complete incompatibiliity with existing equipment. The question you have
to ask yourself is whether it's worth it. I don't see their improvements as being worth the cost and
I think they are using their effective monopoly of the components market to get a churn the
component market. Afterall, where's the profit in making parts that will last a lifetime?

I would rather see standards, and incremental backward-compatible improvements within the standards.

JP

[email hidden] (JP) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

John Dacey <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Malum consilium quod mutari non potest." - Publilius Syrus On 24 Dec 2003 21:02:02 GMT,

(Tom Paterson) said:

>From: John Dacey

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Shimano-bashing doth restore us. Fa la la la la, la la, la, la!

Bash? Nope. Not here.

To the untrained observer, your ready assent to describing Shimano's newest cranks as "another
new, expensive, needless Shimano standard" could be misinterpreted as bashing. You are free to
believe that I took the time to write those spoofed carol lyrics specifically with your comments
in mind, but you'd be wrong. I meant it only as a lighthearted jibe at *anybody* whose fealty to
particular component mfrs sometimes gets in the way of remaining open to new designs.

I have no problem with being called a Shimano basher and would adopt this tune as my personal
anthem except for the relative triviality of the issue in the overall scheme of things.

I don't, OTOH, have any particular fealty to particular component mfrs, having lost interest in
Campy because their design aesthetics just don't do it for me anymore- I particularly like French
equipment these days. Too bad they don't make a derailleur anymore.

The problem with Shimano is a tradeoff- they make the tiniest, barely noticeable, incremental
improvements at a cost of complete incompatibiliity with existing equipment. The question you have
to ask yourself is whether it's worth it. I don't see their improvements as being worth the cost
and I think they are using their effective monopoly of the components market to get a churn the
component market. After all, where's the profit in making parts that will last a lifetime?

I would rather see standards, and incremental backward-compatible improvements within the
standards.

JP

Dear JP,

I'd like a serene world, too, one in which they keep making all my stuff, in case I need spare
parts, and yet somehow improve it, even though I don't plan to waste my money on any new stuff
that's only slightly improved.

But what kind of incremental backward-compatible improvements can you suggest to bridge the gulfs
between . . .

Square cranks and splined cranks?

Friction and index shifting?

Campagnolo and Shimano indexing?

The cable housings types and widths for such shifters?

Tubulars and clinchers?

The 27-and-1/4 inch and the 700c?

The freehub and the freewheel?

Traditional and threadless headsets?

Schrader and Presta?

English and Italian thread?

Derailleur and Rohloff?

Different brands of cleats and pedals?

Different width seat-posts?

Rear frame widths for increasingly large gear clusters?

Chains and chain tools for increasingly large gear clusters?

The 9/16ths and the 15 mm pedal flats?

The solid and the quick-release axle?

The bagel and the doughnut? (Sorry, wrong thread.)

Carl Fogel

"Suum cuique placet." - Pliny the Elder
On 26 Dec 2003 15:38:41 GMT, [email hidden] (Tom Paterson)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: John Dacey Although the incidence of problems with competently installed Octalink, ISIS or
square taper cranks are all statistically small, that shouldn't mean that the search for an
improved system should cease. You know - "the enemy of good is: better" - that sort of thing

What I was poking at was the idea that the new top-end production standard for DA is apparently (I
got the news here) a new version of Ashtabula. IOW, "you want DA, you get..."

You might consider not filtering your news through a source that champions soldered spokes and scissor-
action brakes.

Quoted message said:

when they have a fairly new spline system intended to fix the most common tapered axle problems.

It's seven years since Octalink was introduced with Dura-Ace 9 (end of '96). I don't consider that
"new" anymore, at least within the context of a part intended for elite level racing.

Quoted message said:

Hence my original remarks about continuity and parts availability.

I didn't pursue your earlier comments about parts availability and "planned obsolescence", so
suffice it to say now that my experience is not shared with yours.

Quoted message said:

"Search" is good. Did they supply any test groups (Euro or US teams, for instance) with early run
stuff, or is this gonna be a "consumer beta" deal?

Well, there was LoneStar and the Letter-Carriers who got some play back in mid-summer in some big
race in Europe. It was pretty interesting, and might have been even better, if one or another of the
major protagonists could've been persuaded to not fall off their bikes every few days.

-------------------------------
John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida businesscycles.combusinesscycles.comOpen ↗ Now in our twenty-first
year. Our catalog of track equipment: eighth year online
-------------------------------