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Comments on new training routine

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30 April 2008
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  1. Hi All,

    I have been practicing a new training routine in an effort to become
    faster and to derease my likelihood of being dropped in races.

    While I am interested in many technical and physiological issues
    surrounding training and performance, I am lazy and do not like very
    structured training. I don't like HR meters nor cyclecomputers. So my
    goal has been to find a regimen that is fun, not taxing in terms of
    mental hassle, and which makes me stronger. I am interested in hearing
    comments on what I have been doing.

    I ride alone on average 10 hours per week. Sometimes a bit more, very
    rarely less. 8 hours is spent at casual to moderate pace. 3 hours of
    this 8 is on a single speed MTB with light gearing, but the terrain
    occasionaly requires some muscle. 2 hours is on a moderalty high
    geared fixed. 3 is on a regular road bike. That is average, with some
    variation. 2x week for 1 hour or so I do my intense effort intervals.
    2.5 minutes as fast as I can, followed by 5 minutes soft pedaling
    repeated 10 times. This is done with an iPod filled with aprox 2.5
    minutes songs on random. 1 hard, 2 rest. The slight variation in
    length, mixed with the mixed terrain gives me valuable experience with
    how intense efforts feel on different terrain, into different winds,
    etc. And it often causes me to push it fast through somewhat technical
    areas which improves my bike handling skills and confidence. I
    considered doing my 2 interval sessions on my rollers, but I think the
    open road provides more.

    In addition to the solo rides, I ride in 1 group ride or race each
    week, usually just short of 2 hours. These are with people faster than
    me, so I work quite hard.

    I've been at this for 4 weeks now. I feel stronger, but it is hard to
    say. Conditions have not been suitable for a benchmark TT.

    Joseph

  2. email hidden said:

    Hi All,

    I have been practicing a new training routine in an effort to become
    faster and to derease my likelihood of being dropped in races.

    dumbass,

    the key to cycling performance is sustained intensity.

    left to their own devices most people will do long easy rides or short
    bouts of intensity.

    you will improve more if you do tempo and threshold efforts ranging
    from 10-90 min.

  3. Quoted message said:


    I ride alone on average 10 hours per week. Sometimes a bit more, very
    rarely less. 8 hours is spent at casual to moderate pace. 3 hours of
    this 8 is on a single speed MTB with light gearing, but the terrain
    occasionaly requires some muscle. 2 hours is on a moderalty high
    geared fixed. 3 is on a regular road bike. That is average, with some
    variation. 2x week for 1 hour or so I do my intense effort intervals.
    2.5 minutes as fast as I can, followed by 5 minutes soft pedaling
    repeated 10 times. This is done with an iPod filled with aprox 2.5
    minutes songs on random. 1 hard, 2 rest. The slight variation in
    length, mixed with the mixed terrain gives me valuable experience with
    how intense efforts feel on different terrain, into different winds,
    etc. And it often causes me to push it fast through somewhat technical
    areas which improves my bike handling skills and confidence. I
    considered doing my 2 interval sessions on my rollers, but I think the
    open road provides more.


    You probably are stronger due to the interval sessions, but you should
    really vary the time a bit more. Once per week should be shorter
    intervals and once per week should be longer. Since your goal is to hang
    with the fast group rather than developing explosive speed, I would
    stick with the 2.5 minutes as your shorter interval and change one of
    your interval sessions to 5 minutes x 6 repeats. Also, I would reduce
    the recovery time of your short intervals to 3 minutes, since you're
    never going to get 5 minutes recovery in a race. When this starts
    getting a bit stale mentally switch to 1 minute intervals for the
    occasional short workout, 2-3 minutes rest between them and see how you
    like those. They will help you deal with pack surges during attacks,
    whereas the 5 minute intervals will help you deal with the last few kms
    of a race, or attacks of your own. Keeping all of your intervals at 2.5
    minutes is fine at first but you will quickly plateau at that time
    point, and still be lacking in the short, sharp surges and sustained
    efforts at the end of the race. As with all interval sessions, they
    should be done at an intensity at which you feel drained, and vaguely
    dizzy and nauseous at the end of the last interval. Experience will show
    you how intense that must be, if you simply won't wear a HRM. Nothing
    like a good mouth-puke at the end of an interval.

    Also, how casual is casual? Truly casual riding should be reserved for
    the day following the weekend group ride, to recharge
    your batteries for intervals. The rest of your rides should be steady
    tempo at a decent pace, otherwise it's junk mileage. I don't count
    commuting to work as training time unless it's longer than 10 km. I
    don't know what you're trying to accomplish by riding a fixie at this
    time of year either, unless it's a job requirement. Working on your
    spinning technique should be reserved for the off season.

  4. Amit Ghosh said:

    dumbass,

    left to their own devices most people will do long easy rides or short
    bouts of intensity.

    Dumbass,

    Left to their own devices most rbr fatty masters would be pounding it
    like there's no tomorrow.

  5. Kyle Legate said:
    Quoted message said:

    I ride alone on average 10 hours per week. Sometimes a bit more, very
    rarely less. 8 hours is spent at casual to moderate pace. 3 hours of
    this 8 is on a single speed MTB with light gearing, but the terrain
    occasionaly requires some muscle. 2 hours is on a moderalty high
    geared fixed. 3 is on a regular road bike. That is average, with some
    variation. 2x week for 1 hour or so I do my intense effort intervals.
    2.5 minutes as fast as I can, followed by 5 minutes soft pedaling
    repeated 10 times. This is done with an iPod filled with aprox 2.5
    minutes songs on random. 1 hard, 2 rest. The slight variation in
    length, mixed with the mixed terrain gives me valuable experience with
    how intense efforts feel on different terrain, into different winds,
    etc. And it often causes me to push it fast through somewhat technical
    areas which improves my bike handling skills and confidence. I
    considered doing my 2 interval sessions on my rollers, but I think the
    open road provides more.

    You probably are stronger due to the interval sessions, but you should
    really vary the time a bit more. Once per week should be shorter
    intervals and once per week should be longer. Since your goal is to hang
    with the fast group rather than developing explosive speed, I would
    stick with the 2.5 minutes as your shorter interval and change one of
    your interval sessions to 5 minutes x 6 repeats. Also, I would reduce
    the recovery time of your short intervals to 3 minutes, since you're
    never going to get 5 minutes recovery in a race. When this starts
    getting a bit stale mentally switch to 1 minute intervals for the
    occasional short workout, 2-3 minutes rest between them and see how you
    like those. They will help you deal with pack surges during attacks,
    whereas the 5 minute intervals will help you deal with the last few kms
    of a race, or attacks of your own. Keeping all of your intervals at 2.5
    minutes is fine at first but you will quickly plateau at that time
    point, and still be lacking in the short, sharp surges and sustained
    efforts at the end of the race. As with all interval sessions, they
    should be done at an intensity at which you feel drained, and vaguely
    dizzy and nauseous at the end of the last interval. Experience will show
    you how intense that must be, if you simply won't wear a HRM. Nothing
    like a good mouth-puke at the end of an interval.

    Also, how casual is casual? Truly casual riding should be reserved for
    the day following the weekend group ride, to recharge
    your batteries for intervals. The rest of your rides should be steady
    tempo at a decent pace, otherwise it's junk mileage. I don't count
    commuting to work as training time unless it's longer than 10 km. I
    don't know what you're trying to accomplish by riding a fixie at this
    time of year either, unless it's a job requirement. Working on your
    spinning technique should be reserved for the off season.

    Casual isn't that casual. About 75-80% max HR, 29km/h average on
    rolling terrain. With occasional harder efforts thrown in here and
    there. Every once in a while I ride with my HRM to calibrate myself.

    The design of my 2.5/5 was based on this:

    http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/1030.htm

    Not so much to simulate the circumstances I find hard in racing, but
    to maximize the amount of work done in a workout. The effort level is
    very high during these intervals. It is balls out and I picked songs
    that help. No internal conversions going on, just hammering.

    But I can see the value of mixing it up a bit, not just to get
    training benefit, but to become accustomed to efforts of different
    durations. Right now when I get dropped, it isn't from short bursts
    which I handle tolerably well, but from short hills. I just get
    saturated too soon and I can't maintain the necessary power. I don't
    even attempt long hills. I might try adding more songs of different
    lengths and do one on one off instead of one on two off.

    I ride the fixie for fun and in [censored] weather to spare my road bike a
    bit, and because it helps me keep the intensity at a moderate level.
    On the road bike I tend to go harder and harder. The season is just
    starting here (first shorts ride yesterday!) so the fixie will be
    gathering more dust pretty soon.

    Joseph

  6. Robert Chung said:
    Amit Ghosh said:

    dumbass,

    Quoted message said:

    left to their own devices most people will do long easy rides or short
    bouts of intensity.

    Dumbass,

    Left to their own devices most rbr fatty masters would be pounding it
    like there's no tomorrow.

    The scale said 94kg this morning. Goal has been 90kg by May 12. I
    might manage 92 or 93. Soon I may be able to drop the fatty sobriquet!

    Joseph

  7. Amit Ghosh said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    left to their own devices most people will do long easy rides or short
    bouts of intensity.

    Dumbass,


    Robert Chung said:
    Quoted message said:

    Left to their own devices most rbr fatty masters would be pounding it
    like there's no tomorrow.

    Quoted message said:

    The scale said 94kg this morning. Goal has been 90kg by May 12. I might
    manage 92 or 93. Soon I may be able to drop the fatty sobriquet!

    If you train in Chile you'll be able to pound it like there's no tomorrow.

  8. email hidden said:
    Robert Chung said:

    On Apr 30, 10:59 am, Amit Ghosh <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    dumbass,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    left to their own devices most people will do long easy rides or short
    bouts of intensity.

    Quoted message said:

    Dumbass,

    Quoted message said:

    Left to their own devices most rbr fatty masters would be pounding it
    like there's no tomorrow.

    The scale said 94kg this morning. Goal has been 90kg by May 12. I
    might manage 92 or 93. Soon I may be able to drop the fatty sobriquet!

    You're saying pounding it will help you lose that much weight?

  9. Robert Chung said:

    On Apr 30, 11:41 am, "[email hidden]"

    Quoted message said:

    On Apr 30, 8:17 pm, Robert Chung <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On Apr 30, 10:59 am, Amit Ghosh <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > dumbass,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > left to their own devices most people will do long easy rides or short
    > bouts of intensity.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Dumbass,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Left to their own devices most rbr fatty masters would be pounding it
    like there's no tomorrow.

    Quoted message said:

    The scale said 94kg this morning. Goal has been 90kg by May 12. I
    might manage 92 or 93. Soon I may be able to drop the fatty sobriquet!

    You're saying pounding it will help you lose that much weight?

    Well the riding isn't helping...

    Joseph

  10. Donald Munro said:
    Amit Ghosh said:
    Quoted message said:

    > left to their own devices most people will do long easy rides or short
    > bouts of intensity.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Dumbass,


    Robert Chung said:
    Quoted message said:

    Left to their own devices most rbr fatty masters would be pounding it
    like there's no tomorrow.


    Quoted message said:

    The scale said 94kg this morning. Goal has been 90kg by May 12. I might
    manage 92 or 93. Soon I may be able to drop the fatty sobriquet!

    If you train in Chile you'll be able to pound it like there's no tomorrow.

    Chile today, hot tamale.

  11. email hidden said:

    Hi All,

    I have been practicing a new training routine in an effort to become
    faster and to derease my likelihood of being dropped in races.

    While I am interested in many technical and physiological issues
    surrounding training and performance, I am lazy and do not like very
    structured training. I don't like HR meters nor cyclecomputers. So my
    goal has been to find a regimen that is fun, not taxing in terms of
    mental hassle, and which makes me stronger. I am interested in hearing
    comments on what I have been doing.

    I ride alone on average 10 hours per week. Sometimes a bit more, very
    rarely less. 8 hours is spent at casual to moderate pace. 3 hours of
    this 8 is on a single speed MTB with light gearing, but the terrain
    occasionaly requires some muscle. 2 hours is on a moderalty high
    geared fixed. 3 is on a regular road bike. That is average, with some
    variation. 2x week for 1 hour or so I do my intense effort intervals.
    2.5 minutes as fast as I can, followed by 5 minutes soft pedaling
    repeated 10 times. This is done with an iPod filled with aprox 2.5
    minutes songs on random. 1 hard, 2 rest. The slight variation in
    length, mixed with the mixed terrain gives me valuable experience with
    how intense efforts feel on different terrain, into different winds,
    etc. And it often causes me to push it fast through somewhat technical
    areas which improves my bike handling skills and confidence. I
    considered doing my 2 interval sessions on my rollers, but I think the
    open road provides more.

    In addition to the solo rides, I ride in 1 group ride or race each
    week, usually just short of 2 hours. These are with people faster than
    me, so I work quite hard.

    I've been at this for 4 weeks now. I feel stronger, but it is hard to
    say. Conditions have not been suitable for a benchmark TT.

    0. Set up a plan for commuting by bike.
    1. Put a Fred Rack on your commuter bike.
    2. Always leave late for work, so you'll have to go as fast as
    possible (unless you actually want to get fired).
    3. Include some hills on the route.
    4. Buy my old college physics, calculus, and chemistry texts from me
    and put them in a pack strapped to the Fred Rack. Add a big fat
    notebook too. Laptop computers are a nice supplement.
    5. Execute the commute plan with the Fred Dork Setup.

    That should help your fitness greatly. It helped me.

    Aux: Get a guvmint job.

  12. Kyle Legate said:

    You probably are stronger due to the interval sessions, but you should
    really vary the time a bit more.


    <snip>

    This is great advice from Kyle, especially about doing intervals both
    shorter and longer than your nominal 2.5 minutes. That duration strikes me
    as an awkward in-between area... perhaps too short to get quality VO2max
    time, but too long to induce key anaerobic adaptations. Seems to me you want
    your intervals to target those two energy systems. I'd suggest intervals of
    60-90 seconds once a week, and on a different day do the 6-x-5:00 intervals.
    If done properly, you will hate the shorter intervals, but you will like
    what happens in races when you need to respond to repeated attacks.

    Also, because of all the great advice you get from rbr, plan to be in the
    front group at the end. That means you better be able to sprint. Use one of
    your steady-tempo days to also get in a hard sprint workout. By that I mean,
    do 8-12 full-out 10-15 second sprints with plenty of recovery in-between.
    Teach your muscles to rip the cranks off your bike. The vast majority of
    bike racers do not work enough on their sprint.

    Mark
    http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com

  13. Off The Back said:

    The vast majority of
    bike racers do not work enough on their sprint.

    The vast majority of bike racers are nowhere near the front at the end
    of the race so there's not much reason for them to work on their
    sprint.

  14. Robert Chung said:
    Quoted message said:

    You're saying pounding it will help you lose that much weight?

    Quoted message said:

    Well the riding isn't helping...

    <http://www.dailymuscle.com/2006/05/12/lets-talk-about-sex-and-calories/>

    Might help with cancer too:
    <http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/16/masturbation-cuts-risk-of_n_96944.html>

  15. I opined:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The vast majority of
    bike racers do not work enough on their sprint.

    to which Robert Chung said:

    The vast majority of bike racers are nowhere near the front at the end
    of the race so there's not much reason for them to work on their
    sprint.

    Maybe. It depends on the category and the kind of race. I think most license
    holders in the US are Masters Fatties... and lower category at that... and
    my observation is that a lot of those races come down to big bunch chaos...
    err, I mean, sprints. Instead of the 30+ mph train you would see near the
    end of higher-level races, the final kms of a cat 4 masters race look like a
    big wide blob with nobody interested in being on the front. They all think
    they can win, and thus all sprint from wherever they happen to find
    themselves in the blob. A guy who is brave, intelligent about positioning,
    and has worked on his sprint, can do well in that situation.

    Of course, as he moves on up the category ladder, he will find it
    increasingly important to have top aerobic fitness, which I think is your
    point.

    Mark
    http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com

  16. Off The Back said:

    I opined:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The vast majority of
    bike racers do not work enough on their sprint.

    to which Robert Chung said:

    The vast majority of bike racers are nowhere near the front at the end
    of the race so there's not much reason for them to work on their
    sprint.

    Maybe. It depends on the category and the kind of race. I think most license
    holders in the US are Masters Fatties... and lower category at that... and
    my observation is that a lot of those races come down to big bunch chaos...
    err, I mean, sprints. Instead of the 30+ mph train you would see near the
    end of higher-level races, the final kms of a cat 4 masters race look like a
    big wide blob with nobody interested in being on the front. They all think
    they can win, and thus all sprint from wherever they happen to find
    themselves in the blob. A guy who is brave, intelligent about positioning,
    and has worked on his sprint, can do well in that situation.

    Of course, as he moves on up the category ladder, he will find it
    increasingly important to have top aerobic fitness, which I think is your
    point.

    That was indeed my point, though "big wide blob" seems pretty
    appropriate to the conversation.

  17. Quoted post said:

    my goal has been to find a regimen that is fun, not taxing in terms of
    mental hassle

    But...but...bike racing is all about suffering with panache!!

    Quoted message said:

    2x week for 1 hour or so I do my intense effort intervals.
    2.5 minutes as fast as I can, followed by 5 minutes soft pedaling
    repeated 10 times.

    Joseph,

    I dig the fact that you are an amateur racer that actually posts about
    how he is doing and trying to improve. Reminds me of RBR about two
    decades ago when the regular posters actually raced bicycles. Or at
    least knew someone famous who raced bicycles.

    Regarding the training program, I also think you are in no-mans land
    with your interval time. 2.5 minutes is too long to develop fast pop
    and not long enough to increase your sustained power. You'll see some
    improvement as any intervals are good intervals but if you are going
    to go part way might as way go all the way.

    What works for me is interval lengths of:

    15-30 seconds
    4-5 minutes
    15-20 minutes

    The 15-30 second intervals develop neuromuscular power. The 4-5
    minutes teach you how to exceed threshold for a sustained period that
    mimics what happens in a race. The 15-20 minute jobs are all about
    threshold power. When time is short, or I don't feel like doing the
    structured workout, I like to go out and just hammer along for 60-75
    minutes. These rides are typically 20-22mph in rolling terrain.

    Like many recreational riders I am guilty of easily settling into my
    comfort cadence / tempo and just riding along instead of training.
    Hence the reason why structured workouts are so important as they
    force stress. A final thing to remember is that recovery is extremely
    important. Your recovery days should be so slow that you'd be
    embarrassed if anyone saw you. Guess what, when they see your rear
    ride away on race day it doesn't matter that you rode slow on
    Wednesday evening on your recvoery ride!

    Try to mix up the times a bit. Throw in some shorter more intense
    quick bursts and lengthen out those 2.5's to 4 or 5 minutes and see
    how it works for you.

    Cheers,

    Mark

  18. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    A final thing to remember is that recovery is extremely
    important. Your recovery days should be so slow that you'd be
    embarrassed if anyone saw you. Guess what, when they see your rear
    ride away on race day it doesn't matter that you rode slow on
    Wednesday evening on your recvoery ride!

    That was an important statement and I wanted to underscore it. Riding easy
    is AS IMPORTANT as riding hard. What's more you have to do a lot more of it.
    Staying in or below zone 2 is a key element in training on your off days.

    Club rides are ALWAYS in Zone 3 which is the zone in which you can't recover
    and can't improve. What's more, if you try to develop and group that rides
    correctly it will always break up and most will try to ride too hard but not
    hard enough to train.

  19. Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    A final thing to remember is that recovery is extremely
    important. Your recovery days should be so slow that you'd be
    embarrassed if anyone saw you. Guess what, when they see your rear
    ride away on race day it doesn't matter that you rode slow on
    Wednesday evening on your recvoery ride!

    That was an important statement and I wanted to underscore it. Riding easy
    is AS IMPORTANT as riding hard. What's more you have to do a lot more of it.
    Staying in or below zone 2 is a key element in training on your off days.

    Club rides are ALWAYS in Zone 3 which is the zone in which you can't recover
    and can't improve. What's more, if you try to develop and group that rides
    correctly it will always break up and most will try to ride too hard but not
    hard enough to train.

    If it's true that you get what you pay for, the above is the freeest
    koaching advice yet.

    If you want to get fast, get a small training group together of
    similar ability and do regular hard steady paceline rides like you're
    riding a team time trial. Go climbing with the group too. Do your
    intervals on the side. If the group won't do easy days, do that on the
    side too. If the group is dysfunctional, quit it and try again. Paypal
    donations CAN be sent to my email address above. If you don't believe
    that last part, prove me wrong.

    Bret

  20. Donald Munro said:
    Robert Chung said:
    Quoted message said:

    You're saying pounding it will help you lose that much weight?


    Quoted message said:

    Well the riding isn't helping...

    <http://www.dailymuscle.com/2006/05/12/lets-talk-about-sex-and-calories/>

    I suppose it becomes a question of quality vs quantity.

    Joseph

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