Comments on new training routine

Bret said:

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A final thing to remember is that recovery is extremely
important. Your recovery days should be so slow that you'd be
embarrassed if anyone saw you. Guess what, when they see your rear
ride away on race day it doesn't matter that you rode slow on
Wednesday evening on your recvoery ride!

Quoted message said:

That was an important statement and I wanted to underscore it. Riding easy
is AS IMPORTANT as riding hard. What's more you have to do a lot more ofit.
Staying in or below zone 2 is a key element in training on your off days..

Quoted message said:

Club rides are ALWAYS in Zone 3 which is the zone in which you can't recover
and can't improve. What's more, if you try to develop and group that rides
correctly it will always break up and most will try to ride too hard butnot
hard enough to train.

If it's true that you get what you pay for, the above is the freeest
koaching advice yet.

If you want to get fast, get a small training group together of
similar ability and do regular hard steady paceline rides like you're
riding a team time trial. Go climbing with the group too. Do your
intervals on the side. If the group won't do easy days, do that on the
side too. If the group is dysfunctional, quit it and try again. Paypal
donations CAN be sent to my email address above. If you don't believe
that last part, prove me wrong.

Bret

I'm having issues with my paypal now so you are SOL, but the advice is
good. That's what my 2 hour club training is. Team time trial starting
with about 15 guys, and as they fade they jump on the back. Toward the
end it is about 5 of us going all out. Quite fun and good training
too.

Joseph

Off The Back said:

I opined:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The vast majority of
bike racers do not work enough on their sprint.

to which Robert Chung said:

The vast majority of bike racers are nowhere near the front at the end
of the race so there's not much reason for them to work on their
sprint.

Maybe. It depends on the category and the kind of race. I think most license
holders in the US are Masters Fatties... and lower category at that... and
my observation is that a lot of those races come down to big bunch chaos....
err, I mean, sprints. Instead of the 30+ mph train you would see near the
end of higher-level races, the final kms of a cat 4 masters race look likea
big wide blob with nobody interested in being on the front. They all think
they can win, and thus all sprint from wherever they happen to find
themselves in the blob. A guy who is brave, intelligent about positioning,
and has worked on his sprint, can do well in that situation.

Of course, as he moves on up the category ladder, he will find it
increasingly important to have top aerobic fitness, which I think is your
point.

Markhttp://marcofanelli.blogspot.com

Right now working on my sprint is not a priority. Just finishing with
the group is. I perhaps flatter myself, but I don't think I need to
work specifically on my sprint anyway, as that is what I seem to have
been made for.

As I have previoulsy lamented, they don't separate into categories
here, so the finishes are most certainly not big blobs. Some of the TT
types try to get away, and the sprinters (along with everyone else)
trys to keep them from getting away. More than a few of those TT guys
do ITTs at 49km/h so the pace is usually high. Sometimes it bunches
up, but it never just rolls along waiting for a sprint.

But that is a situation I'll worry about dealing with later.

Joseph

Quoted message said:

Try to mix up the times a bit. Throw in some shorter more intense
quick bursts and lengthen out those 2.5's to 4 or 5 minutes and see
how it works for you.

I'm going to do that. 2 more weeks of what I've been doing, then a
slightly more varied routine.

Joseph

Robert Chung said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> You're saying pounding it will help you lose that much weight?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well the riding isn't helping...

Donald Munro said:

Quoted message said:

<http://www.dailymuscle.com/2006/05/12/lets-talk-about-sex-and-calories/>

Quoted message said:

I suppose it becomes a question of quality vs quantity.

And recovery. That's why they have programs in Chile.

"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A final thing to remember is that recovery is extremely
important. Your recovery days should be so slow that you'd be
embarrassed if anyone saw you. Guess what, when they see your rear
ride away on race day it doesn't matter that you rode slow on
Wednesday evening on your recvoery ride!

That was an important statement and I wanted to underscore it. Riding
easy
is AS IMPORTANT as riding hard. What's more you have to do a lot more of
it.
Staying in or below zone 2 is a key element in training on your off
days.

Club rides are ALWAYS in Zone 3 which is the zone in which you can't
recover
and can't improve. What's more, if you try to develop and group that
rides
correctly it will always break up and most will try to ride too hard but
not
hard enough to train.

If it's true that you get what you pay for, the above is the freeest
koaching advice yet.

And then to prove just how bright he is:

Quoted message said:

If you want to get fast, get a small training group together of
similar ability and do regular hard steady paceline rides like you're
riding a team time trial. Go climbing with the group too. Do your
intervals on the side. If the group won't do easy days, do that on the
side too. If the group is dysfunctional, quit it and try again.

Hmm, same advice save he believes that you can get your friends to train you
instead of just getting tired themselves.

No wonder you've done so wonderfully in the racing world Bret.

Tom Kunich said:

No wonder you've done so wonderfully in the racing world Bret.

He's done a bit better than you have.

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

Riding easy is AS IMPORTANT as riding hard.

No.

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

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Quoted message said:

> A final thing to remember is that recovery is extremely
> important. Your recovery days should be so slow that you'd be
> embarrassed if anyone saw you. Guess what, when they see your rear
> ride away on race day it doesn't matter that you rode slow on
> Wednesday evening on your recvoery ride!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That was an important statement and I wanted to underscore it. Riding
easy
is AS IMPORTANT as riding hard. What's more you have to do a lot more of
it.
Staying in or below zone 2 is a key element in training on your off
days.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Club rides are ALWAYS in Zone 3 which is the zone in which you can't
recover
and can't improve. What's more, if you try to develop and group that
rides
correctly it will always break up and most will try to ride too hard but
not
hard enough to train.

Quoted message said:

If it's true that you get what you pay for, the above is the freeest
koaching advice yet.

And then to prove just how bright he is:

Quoted message said:

If you want to get fast, get a small training group together of
similar ability and do regular hard steady paceline rides like you're
riding a team time trial. Go climbing with the group too. Do your
intervals on the side. If the group won't do easy days, do that on the
side too. If the group is dysfunctional, quit it and try again.

Hmm, same advice save he believes that you can get your friends to train you
instead of just getting tired themselves.

It's a mutually beneficial relationship. You just need to find a few
people with similar ability and training philosophy.

Quoted message said:

No wonder you've done so wonderfully in the racing world Bret.

My talent level was a limiting factor. One of my training partners won
a FM world road race title. He believed our paceline rides were an
important part of his training.

Bret

"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

Quoted message said:

Hmm, same advice save he believes that you can get your friends to train
you
instead of just getting tired themselves.

It's a mutually beneficial relationship. You just need to find a few
people with similar ability and training philosophy.

Bret, why do you feel the need to start a fight to prove nothing at all? In
case you missed it, professionals train almost entirely on their own for
their strength training.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No wonder you've done so wonderfully in the racing world Bret.

My talent level was a limiting factor. One of my training partners won
a FM world road race title. He believed our paceline rides were an
important part of his training.

What he believes and what is the truth could be completely different.

Look, the reason that MOST people can't get good at racing isn't because of
their talent but because of the motivation it takes to train yourself up.
Especially in the lower classes most people aren't even at the level where
they can benefit from a difficult training regime. That means that they have
to concentrate entirely on strength training just to get up to where they
can do a decent endurance training schedule.

It's nice that you have a group with similar capabilities but my experience
with these groups is that most of the group are not at the level of the
minority of fast guys. That means that when the fast guys are riding easy
the rest of the group are well into level 3 heart rates. Level 3 is too fast
to recover and too slow to benefit. The result of such train WILL give you
some benefit but very little and only over a very long time.

What's more, inevitably these groups become competitive with each other and
simply burn out the riders instead of training them. There are three local
"racing" groups in my area that "train" and the fact is that it is very rare
that a single person on one of those "teams" shows up at a real race.

And I've tried to put together training groups that would train properly
only to find that people simply cannot bring themselves to ride hard enough
on the hard days and easy enough on the easy days. So I finally realized
that you train yourself the majority of the time and you use races -
especially if you're lucky enough to live in an area that has after-work one
day a week crits - to build racing strength.

And as I said above - unless you can run at or very near the front of a Cat
4 Crit race you probably aren't fit enough to benefit from a regular
training regime and you need to train for THAT before you can train properly
for advancing in the categories.

Bret

"SLAVE of THE STATE" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

Quoted message said:

Riding easy is AS IMPORTANT as riding hard.

No.

Whether you believe it or not it is so.

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

Quoted message said:

Hmm, same advice save he believes that you can get your friends to train
you
instead of just getting tired themselves.

Quoted message said:

It's a mutually beneficial relationship. You just need to find a few
people with similar ability and training philosophy.

Bret, why do you feel the need to start a fight to prove nothing at all? In
case you missed it, professionals train almost entirely on their own for
their strength training.

Your koaching advice is so far off the mark that it needs to be
countered.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No wonder you've done so wonderfully in the racing world Bret.

Quoted message said:

My talent level was a limiting factor. One of my training partners won
a FM world road race title. He believed our paceline rides were an
important part of his training.

What he believes and what is the truth could be completely different.

He is a former pro and olympian. He knows more about training than you
do.

Bret

"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

Quoted message said:

"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

> Hmm, same advice save he believes that you can get your friends to
> train
> you instead of just getting tired themselves.

Quoted message said:

It's a mutually beneficial relationship. You just need to find a few
people with similar ability and training philosophy.

Bret, why do you feel the need to start a fight to prove nothing at all?
In
case you missed it, professionals train almost entirely on their own for
their strength training.

Your koaching advice is so far off the mark that it needs to be
countered.

Sorry, it's your inability to do anything here but pick fights that is off
the mark. The fact is that most successful cyclists train solo most of the
time. Amateurs successes almost always denote natural ability and not
training knowledge.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My talent level was a limiting factor. One of my training partners won
a FM world road race title. He believed our paceline rides were an
important part of his training.

What he believes and what is the truth could be completely different.

He is a former pro and olympian. He knows more about training than you
do.

A "pro" at what level?

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

Quoted message said:

"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]....
On May 1, 8:26 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> > Hmm, same advice save he believes that you can get your friends to
> > train
> > you instead of just getting tired themselves.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> It's a mutually beneficial relationship. You just need to find a few
> people with similar ability and training philosophy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bret, why do you feel the need to start a fight to prove nothing at all?
In
case you missed it, professionals train almost entirely on their own for
their strength training.

Quoted message said:

Your koaching advice is so far off the mark that it needs to be
countered.

Sorry, it's your inability to do anything here but pick fights that is off
the mark. The fact is that most successful cyclists train solo most of the
time. Amateurs successes almost always denote natural ability and not
training knowledge.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> My talent level was a limiting factor. One of my training partners won
> a FM world road race title. He believed our paceline rides were an
> important part of his training.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What he believes and what is the truth could be completely different.

Quoted message said:

He is a former pro and olympian. He knows more about training than you
do.

A "pro" at what level?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Tom,

Have you noticed that the only person Bret ever picks a fight with is
YOU? He's not really picking a fight, he's just goading you to see
how you'll react. Like Ol' Faithful, you respond by spewing hot air
every time. I can just see Bret hunkered down at his desk, grinning
like a mule eating briars, every time he hooks you in. Okay, I'm
kidding, Bret doesn't grin like a mule. He's really more like
smirking at the thought. But, I digress.

Perhaps YOU should get this through your head. Bret (and most others
on R.B.R.) has forgotten more about training and racing than you'll
know. What you don't seem to understand is that when Bret references
getting together for a group hammerfest, he's not talking about just
showing up at the local gathering place for an afternoon ride, where
you'll find riders of all manner of divergent capability. He's
talking about getting together with a limited number of teammates and
possibly a few other invited friends, ALL of whom are elite (in so far
as fatty masters can be elite) cyclists. Some are former pros. All
are still very fast, some fast enough to be competitive in the local
CO Pro/I/II races. Hell, he's got enough co-workers (that's right, co-
workers) who meet the conditions I mention to put together a very
capable team time trial squad.

Or, maybe you're right. Bret is just argumentative.

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"SLAVE of THE STATE" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]...

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

Quoted message said:

Riding easy is AS IMPORTANT as riding hard.

Quoted message said:

No.

Whether you believe it or not it is so.

To win, you must turn a 12. To turn a 12, you must train hard.

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

Quoted message said:

"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]....
On May 1, 8:26 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> > Hmm, same advice save he believes that you can get your friends to
> > train
> > you instead of just getting tired themselves.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> It's a mutually beneficial relationship. You just need to find a few
> people with similar ability and training philosophy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bret, why do you feel the need to start a fight to prove nothing at all?
In
case you missed it, professionals train almost entirely on their own for
their strength training.

Quoted message said:

Your koaching advice is so far off the mark that it needs to be
countered.

Sorry, it's your inability to do anything here but pick fights that is off
the mark. The fact is that most successful cyclists train solo most of the
time. Amateurs successes almost always denote natural ability and not
training knowledge.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> My talent level was a limiting factor. One of my training partners won
> a FM world road race title. He believed our paceline rides were an
> important part of his training.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What he believes and what is the truth could be completely different.

Quoted message said:

He is a former pro and olympian. He knows more about training than you
do.

A "pro" at what level?

One of the top north american pros in the 80's. Some euro experience.

Bret

Scott said:

I can just see Bret hunkered down at his desk, grinning
like a mule eating briars, every time he hooks you in.  Okay, I'm
kidding, Bret doesn't grin like a mule.  He's really more like
smirking at the thought.  But, I digress.

Smirking maybe, but I don't hunker.

Quoted message said:

Hell, he's got enough co-workers (that's right, co-
workers) who meet the conditions I mention to put together a very
capable team time trial squad.

What's more surprising is that three of us in the company have
completed ski marathons.

Bret

"Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Have you noticed that the only person Bret ever picks a fight with is
YOU?

Yeah, since I'm the only one here that doesn't take his postings as gospel.
Why don't you remove your lips from his anus?

Quoted message said:

Perhaps YOU should get this through your head. Bret (and most others
on R.B.R.) has forgotten more about training and racing than you'll
know.

I see you're french-kissing it.

"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

One of the top north american pros in the 80's. Some euro experience.

Bret, how successful were our 80's "pros" in Europe? Could it be that they
didn't know how to properly train? Why is it that today's Pros can make the
transition and in the 80's they felt delighted to finish a European race?

"SLAVE of THE STATE" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"SLAVE of THE STATE" <[email hidden]> wrote in
messagenews:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

> Riding easy is AS IMPORTANT as riding hard.

Quoted message said:

No.

Whether you believe it or not it is so.

To win, you must turn a 12. To turn a 12, you must train hard.

Where precisely did I say that you don't have to train hard. What I said is
that you have to ALSO do EASY recovery rides. The difference is that when
you're trained up high enough your "easy" ride is very often a great deal
harder than most riders can do.

By the way - how do you explain the fact that there have been a lot of
stages in the big three using compact cranks?

53 - 13 = 4.07
50 - 12 = 4.16

That's a 2% difference.

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

One of the top north american pros in the 80's. Some euro experience.

Bret, how successful were our 80's "pros" in Europe? Could it be that they
didn't know how to properly train? Why is it that today's Pros can make the
transition and in the 80's they felt delighted to finish a European race?

I'm definitely smirking now. Several north americans made the
transition quit well in the 80's. Are you forgetting who crushed
Breukink on the Gavia?

Bret