TOWARDS A NORMATIVE CASE FOR BICYCLE LIGHTS

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Andre Jute said:

TOWARDS A NORMATIVE

I don't know the definition but `normative'
means "We're about to drop a barge load of
fertilizer on you. Bon appetit."

I'm outta here.

--
Michael Press

Per Michael Press:

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
Andre Jute <[email hidden]> wrote:

This is the second post by Andre that didn't make to my NG
reader.

Individual.Net.

I stumbled upon the first one (an extremely-detailed reply to
something I had posted in another thread here) accidentally when
Googling something.

Anybody else not seeing Andre's posts via their news feed?

--
PeteCresswell

On Mar 16, 5:44 am, Michael Press <[email hidden]> wrote:

*****

Quoted message said:

Andre Jute <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

TOWARDS A NORMATIVE CASE FOR BICYCLE LIGHTS

1. Bicycle lights are for seeing and being seen.

2. In my opinion, bicyclists are not lesser human beings than
motorists. It should be stressed that bicyclists have responsibilities
to motorists as motorists have to cyclists. To meet their
responsibilities, I think cyclists presently require two sets of
lights:

3. One set of lights, driven by batteries, for making a lot of light
that permits the cyclist to see and, more important, to be seen by
motorists.

4. The other set of lights, powered by a hub dynamo, will be always
available as an emergency backup. If these dynohub-driven lights are
LED they can be run constantly because their lifetime is for practical
purposes infinite; they may be used as daylight running lights.
Currently the best front dynohub light is the LED BUMM Fly IQ; it has
no flashing facility. German and Dutch rear bicycle lights, if used
outside their native milieu, need to be supplemented with a brighter
light, preferably flashing. See point 7 below.

5. We can hope in the light of recent events that sometime in the the
next decade LED dynamo front lights will be powerful enough for both
functions, see and being seen. Unfortunately there seems to be no
impetus for mainstream dynamo light makers to make a brighter rear
light than currently available, and German and Dutch law, in their
major markets, forbid flashing lights. Decent rear dynohub lights (or
battery lights for that matter) with more output and flashing modes
will thus have to come from specialists and will accordingly be
relatively more expensive.

6. It is my opinion that any cyclist who is not one of a mass of
cyclists in places where motorists routinely expect to see cyclists
should have flashing lights front and rear to establish his presence.

7. The only rear lights that are good enough to be primary lights are
made by Dinotte and Cateyes (TL-LD1100). German and Dutch lights are
simply too limp, and in any event do not have a flashing facility.

8. I'm working on finding front flashing lights; my current idea is to
add simple electronics to a BUMM Fly IQ to make it flash; the
Reelights may suit others but won't fit my bike.

Thoughts, expansions, alternative ideas welcome.

Andre Jute
If at first you don't succeed, try again.

*****

Quoted message said:

I don't know the definition but `normative'
means "We're about to drop a barge load of
fertilizer on you. Bon appetit."

Normative just means "what should be" or, when I use it and I'm
addressing the Krygo-Fogel School of Ignorance, "I'm telling you from
on high, sonny".

Quoted message said:

I'm outta here.

I don't see that lights are particularly difficult, except for the
fascist fashion faction who want so much to belong to the crowd that
they will risk their lives to be seen to conform. My logic seems
pretty good, if I say so myself, and the rest is merely a matter of
accepting that anyone else's decision about the value he puts on his
own life and limbs is a matter of conscience out of which he cannot be
and should not be (normatively, heh-heh!) bullied by trash like the
Krygo-Fogels. So stick around and contribute something; the worst is
already over (1).

Andre Jute
Safe

(1) With apologies to Pete for "the worst" happening in his thread --
I thought that what I said there about lights was pretty inoffensive,
unsassailable by the most eager of the RBT flame warriors, but it
seems I was wrong.

Andre Jute said:

TOWARDS A NORMATIVE CASE FOR BICYCLE LIGHTS

1. Bicycle lights are for seeing and being seen.

2. In my opinion, bicyclists are not lesser human beings than
motorists. It should be stressed that bicyclists have responsibilities
to motorists as motorists have to cyclists. To meet their
responsibilities, I think cyclists presently require two sets of
lights:

3. One set of lights, driven by batteries, for making a lot of light
that permits the cyclist to see and, more important, to be seen by
motorists.

4. The other set of lights, powered by a hub dynamo, will be always
available as an emergency backup. If these dynohub-driven lights are
LED they can be run constantly because their lifetime is for practical
purposes infinite; they may be used as daylight running lights.
Currently the best front dynohub light is the LED BUMM Fly IQ; it has
no flashing facility. German and Dutch rear bicycle lights, if used
outside their native milieu, need to be supplemented with a brighter
light, preferably flashing. See point 7 below.

5. We can hope in the light of recent events that sometime in the the
next decade LED dynamo front lights will be powerful enough for both
functions, see and being seen. Unfortunately there seems to be no
impetus for mainstream dynamo light makers to make a brighter rear
light than currently available, and German and Dutch law, in their
major markets, forbid flashing lights. Decent rear dynohub lights (or
battery lights for that matter) with more output and flashing modes
will thus have to come from specialists and will accordingly be
relatively more expensive.

6. It is my opinion that any cyclist who is not one of a mass of
cyclists in places where motorists routinely expect to see cyclists
should have flashing lights front and rear to establish his presence.

7. The only rear lights that are good enough to be primary lights are
made by Dinotte and Cateyes (TL-LD1100). German and Dutch lights are
simply too limp, and in any event do not have a flashing facility.

8. I'm working on finding front flashing lights; my current idea is to
add simple electronics to a BUMM Fly IQ to make it flash; the
Reelights may suit others but won't fit my bike.

Thoughts, expansions, alternative ideas welcome.

Andre Jute
If at first you don't succeed, try again.

I use a Sigma Cuberider rear light

http://www.sigmasport.com/en/produkte/beleuchtung/standard_lights/cuberider/

when I will be riding in the dark or dusk. Nice and slim and easy to
move from bike to bike.

If I will be riding in the dark, I use a Silva 480 headlight:

http://tinyurl.com/yt8gwp

I only ride in the dark off-road with occasional short transfers on
the road from one forest area to another. If I rode on the road in the
dark, I would use a bar mounted light for illumination. A headlight is
nice because it can be moved around.

When it is light and good visibility I don't use lights. I have
reflective tape (in black!) on my bike in various places.

Whether I use lights or not, I ride as though I were invisible at
night.

I ride in rural conditions, with the occasional suburban foray. Back
when I lived in a big city, I never used lights, and took it upon
myself to keep myslef out of harm's way. Any use of lights would have
have given me false confidence from the potentially false assumption
that I would be seen.

Joseph

Andre Jute said:

Normative just means "what should be" or, when I use it and I'm
addressing the Krygo-Fogel School of Ignorance, "I'm telling you from
on high, sonny".

Quoted message said:

and should not be (normatively, heh-heh!) bullied by trash like the
Krygo-Fogels. So stick around and contribute something; the worst is
already over

Careful with the "character assasination" Andre.

Andre Jute said:

On Mar 16, 5:44 am, Michael Press <[email hidden]> wrote:

*****

Quoted message said:

Andre Jute <[email hidden]> wrote:
TOWARDS A NORMATIVE CASE FOR BICYCLE LIGHTS

Quoted message said:

1. Bicycle lights are for seeing and being seen.

Quoted message said:

2. In my opinion, bicyclists are not lesser human beings than
motorists. It should be stressed that bicyclists have responsibilities
to motorists as motorists have to cyclists. To meet their
responsibilities, I think cyclists presently require two sets of
lights:

Quoted message said:

3. One set of lights, driven by batteries, for making a lot of light
that permits the cyclist to see and, more important, to be seen by
motorists.

Quoted message said:

4. The other set of lights, powered by a hub dynamo, will be always
available as an emergency backup. If these dynohub-driven lights are
LED they can be run constantly because their lifetime is for practical
purposes infinite; they may be used as daylight running lights.
Currently the best front dynohub light is the LED BUMM Fly IQ; it has
no flashing facility. German and Dutch rear bicycle lights, if used
outside their native milieu, need to be supplemented with a brighter
light, preferably flashing. See point 7 below.

Quoted message said:

5. We can hope in the light of recent events that sometime in the the
next decade LED dynamo front lights will be powerful enough for both
functions, see and being seen. Unfortunately there seems to be no
impetus for mainstream dynamo light makers to make a brighter rear
light than currently available, and German and Dutch law, in their
major markets, forbid flashing lights. Decent rear dynohub lights (or
battery lights for that matter) with more output and flashing modes
will thus have to come from specialists and will accordingly be
relatively more expensive.

Quoted message said:

6. It is my opinion that any cyclist who is not one of a mass of
cyclists in places where motorists routinely expect to see cyclists
should have flashing lights front and rear to establish his presence.

Quoted message said:

7. The only rear lights that are good enough to be primary lights are
made by Dinotte and Cateyes (TL-LD1100). German and Dutch lights are
simply too limp, and in any event do not have a flashing facility.

Quoted message said:

8. I'm working on finding front flashing lights; my current idea is to
add simple electronics to a BUMM Fly IQ to make it flash; the
Reelights may suit others but won't fit my bike.

Quoted message said:

Thoughts, expansions, alternative ideas welcome.

Quoted message said:

Andre Jute
If at first you don't succeed, try again.

*****

Quoted message said:

I don't know the definition but `normative'
means "We're about to drop a barge load of
fertilizer on you. Bon appetit."

Normative just means "what should be" or, when I use it and I'm
addressing the Krygo-Fogel School of Ignorance, "I'm telling you from
on high, sonny".

Quoted message said:

I'm outta here.

I don't see that lights are particularly difficult, except for the
fascist fashion faction who want so much to belong to the crowd that
they will risk their lives to be seen to conform.

And this is why you're a jackass. You present the false dilemma that
one either:

a) believes in lighting overkill; or
b) doesn't value his or her own life.

Your position is the equivalent to one that people who don't wear both
belts and suspenders (or braces,if you're a Brit) are immodest,
because if you only use a belt, it might break and your pants will
fall down.

Calling those who disagree with you suicidal makes you the fascist,
especially since you're on the "buy more stuff" side (classical
Italian fascism is also corporatism).

For the first and only time in my life, I wish I was more like Michael
Press, who had the good sense to walk away from this thread.

(PeteCresswell) said:

This is the second post by Andre that didn't make to my NG
reader.

Individual.Net.

I stumbled upon the first one (an extremely-detailed reply to
something I had posted in another thread here) accidentally
when Googling something.

Anybody else not seeing Andre's posts via their news feed?

My news server is "News.Individual.NET", and I got to read
Andre's initial post in this thread via that service soon after
he posted it.

I don't know how that can be, if we're both using the same news
server.

I note from your message headers that you're posting through
something called "4ax.com". Are you reading and posting via
different services?

John

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 06:06:00 +1100, John Henderson
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[---]

Quoted message said:

I note from your message headers that you're posting through
something called "4ax.com".

That just means that he's using Agent to post with - in its default
configuration, it adds the suffix "4ax.com" to its message IDs.

Careful with the "character assasination" Andre.

He just can't help himself. He's had his ego wounded and he's not ever going
to get over it....until he matures, of course.

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 21:04:42 +0100, Andrew Price <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 06:06:00 +1100, John Henderson
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[---]

Quoted message said:

I note from your message headers that you're posting through
something called "4ax.com".

That just means that he's using Agent to post with - in its default
configuration, it adds the suffix "4ax.com" to its message IDs.

Dear Andrew,

Thanks for pointing that out--I never noticed it, but sure enough,
there's the @4ax.com in my Agent headers, and the Agent help screens
eventually explain it:

<md5>@4AX.COM <md5> is a globally-unique string, generated from random
state on your PC and encoded using the MD5 algorithm. 4AX.COM is a
domain name owned by Forte for exclusive use by Agent for the purpose
of generating message-ids. This is the format recommended by Forte.

<md5>@<server> <md5> is the same globally-unique string described
above. <server> is the name of the nntp or smtp server to which the
message is being posted. This format is available for users who
prefer to have message-ids contain the name of the posting server
rather than the Forte-owned 4AX.COM domain name.

<date.tic>@<server> <date.tic> is a number generating by combining the
current date and time and the Windows tick count. <server> is the
name of the nntp or smtp server to which the message is being posted.
This is the format used by previous versions of Agent. Forte
recommends that this format no longer be used, since it is more
likely to genereate non-unique ids.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

email hidden said:

Andre Jute said:

TOWARDS A NORMATIVE CASE FOR BICYCLE LIGHTS

Quoted message said:

1. Bicycle lights are for seeing and being seen.

Quoted message said:

2. In my opinion, bicyclists are not lesser human beings than
motorists. It should be stressed that bicyclists have responsibilities
to motorists as motorists have to cyclists.  To meet their
responsibilities, I think cyclists presently require two sets of
lights:

Quoted message said:

3. One set of lights, driven by batteries, for making a lot of light
that permits the cyclist to see and, more important, to be seen by
motorists.

Quoted message said:

4. The other set of lights, powered by a hub dynamo, will be always
available as an emergency backup. If these dynohub-driven lights are
LED they can be run constantly because their lifetime is for practical
purposes infinite; they may be used as daylight running lights.
Currently the best front dynohub light is the LED BUMM Fly IQ; it has
no flashing facility. German and Dutch rear bicycle lights, if used
outside their native milieu, need to be supplemented with a brighter
light, preferably flashing. See point 7 below.

Quoted message said:

5. We can hope in the light of recent events that sometime in the the
next decade LED dynamo front lights will be powerful enough for both
functions, see and being seen. Unfortunately there seems to be no
impetus for mainstream dynamo light makers to make a brighter rear
light than currently available, and German and Dutch law, in their
major markets, forbid flashing lights. Decent rear dynohub lights (or
battery lights for that matter) with more output and flashing modes
will thus have to come from specialists and will accordingly be
relatively more expensive.

Quoted message said:

6. It is my opinion that any cyclist who is not one of a mass of
cyclists in places where motorists routinely expect to see cyclists
should have flashing lights front and rear to establish his presence.

Quoted message said:

7. The only rear lights that are good enough to be primary lights are
made by Dinotte and Cateyes (TL-LD1100). German and Dutch lights are
simply too limp, and in any event do not have a flashing facility.

Quoted message said:

8. I'm working on finding front flashing lights; my current idea is to
add simple electronics to a BUMM Fly IQ to make it flash; the
Reelights may suit others but won't fit my bike.

Quoted message said:

Thoughts, expansions, alternative ideas welcome.

Quoted message said:

Andre Jute
If at first you don't succeed, try again.

I use a Sigma Cuberider rear light

http://www.sigmasport.com/en/produkte/beleuchtung/standard_lights/cub...

when I will be riding in the dark or dusk. Nice and slim and easy to
move from bike to bike.

If I will be riding in the dark, I use a Silva 480 headlight:

http://tinyurl.com/yt8gwp

I only ride in the dark off-road with occasional short transfers on
the road from one forest area to another. If I rode on the road in the
dark, I would use a bar mounted light for illumination. A headlight is
nice because it can be moved around.

When it is light and good visibility I don't use lights. I have
reflective tape (in black!) on my bike in various places.

Whether I use lights or not, I ride as though I were invisible at
night.

I ride in rural conditions, with the occasional suburban foray. Back
when I lived in a big city, I never used lights, and took it upon
myself to keep myslef out of harm's way. Any use of lights would have
have given me false confidence from the potentially false assumption
that I would be seen.

Joseph

So you ride like a cat walks on a hot tin roof. I do wonder though if
a guy who has clearly thought about what he wants and needs should be
in the least concerned about "false confidence."

I find that one of the big advantages of sitting tall on my Dutch city
bikes is that in daytime, and in close traffic at night, I can make
eye-contact with the drivers of SUVs. Once they've looked you in the
eye it is really very rare for them to do something stupid near you.

Andre Jute
Eyeballing nemesis

Ron Ruff said:

Andre Jute said:

Normative just means "what should be" or, when I use it and I'm
addressing the Krygo-Fogel School of Ignorance, "I'm telling you from
on high, sonny".
and should not be (normatively, heh-heh!) bullied by trash like the
Krygo-Fogels. So stick around and contribute something; the worst is
already over

Careful with the "character assasination" Andre.

You mean those guys are so thick, they're going to try assassinating
my character again? Nah, nobody, not even the Krygo-Fogel trash could
be that stupid after what happened to them the last time.

But thanks for thinking of me, Ron.

Andre Jute
Not taking any prisoners this month

Andrew Price said:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 06:06:00 +1100, John Henderson
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[---]

Quoted message said:

I note from your message headers that you're posting through
something called "4ax.com".

That just means that he's using Agent to post with - in its
default configuration, it adds the suffix "4ax.com" to its
message IDs.

Pete, maybe you've got a message filter that's running amok?

John

Hank said:

Andre Jute said:

On Mar 16, 5:44 am, Michael Press <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

*****

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Andre Jute <[email hidden]> wrote:
TOWARDS A NORMATIVE CASE FOR BICYCLE LIGHTS

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1. Bicycle lights are for seeing and being seen.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. In my opinion, bicyclists are not lesser human beings than
motorists. It should be stressed that bicyclists have responsibilities
to motorists as motorists have to cyclists.  To meet their
responsibilities, I think cyclists presently require two sets of
lights:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3. One set of lights, driven by batteries, for making a lot of light
that permits the cyclist to see and, more important, to be seen by
motorists.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4. The other set of lights, powered by a hub dynamo, will be always
available as an emergency backup. If these dynohub-driven lights are
LED they can be run constantly because their lifetime is for practical
purposes infinite; they may be used as daylight running lights.
Currently the best front dynohub light is the LED BUMM Fly IQ; it has
no flashing facility. German and Dutch rear bicycle lights, if used
outside their native milieu, need to be supplemented with a brighter
light, preferably flashing. See point 7 below.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

5. We can hope in the light of recent events that sometime in the the
next decade LED dynamo front lights will be powerful enough for both
functions, see and being seen. Unfortunately there seems to be no
impetus for mainstream dynamo light makers to make a brighter rear
light than currently available, and German and Dutch law, in their
major markets, forbid flashing lights. Decent rear dynohub lights (or
battery lights for that matter) with more output and flashing modes
will thus have to come from specialists and will accordingly be
relatively more expensive.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

6. It is my opinion that any cyclist who is not one of a mass of
cyclists in places where motorists routinely expect to see cyclists
should have flashing lights front and rear to establish his presence.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

7. The only rear lights that are good enough to be primary lights are
made by Dinotte and Cateyes (TL-LD1100). German and Dutch lights are
simply too limp, and in any event do not have a flashing facility.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

8. I'm working on finding front flashing lights; my current idea is to
add simple electronics to a BUMM Fly IQ to make it flash; the
Reelights may suit others but won't fit my bike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thoughts, expansions, alternative ideas welcome.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Andre Jute
If at first you don't succeed, try again.

Quoted message said:

*****

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't know the definition but `normative'
means "We're about to drop a barge load of
fertilizer on you. Bon appetit."

Quoted message said:

Normative just means "what should be" or, when I use it and I'm
addressing the Krygo-Fogel School of Ignorance, "I'm telling you from
on high, sonny".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm outta here.

Quoted message said:

I don't see that lights are particularly difficult, except for the
fascist fashion faction who want so much to belong to the crowd that
they will risk their lives to be seen to conform.

And this is why you're a jackass.

We'll see who is the jackass, anonymous Hank, when we've evaluated
your fulminations:

Quoted message said:

You present the false dilemma that
one either:

a) believes in lighting overkill; or

Nope. "Overkill" is your subjective judgement.

Quoted message said:

b) doesn't value his or her own life.

Where did I say that? I said some people will risk their lives so as
to be seen to conform to some pack mentality. That is how highly they
value their lives: to the total extent of belonging. If your peer
group is into dangerous activities, like having inadequate bicycle
lights, then it should be a free choice not to belong, not to be
bullied by your kind of sneering and jeering.

Quoted message said:

Your position is the equivalent to one that people who don't wear both
belts and suspenders (or braces,if you're a Brit) are immodest,
because if you only use a belt, it might break and your pants will
fall down.

Nah, that's the position of the dynohub fanatics. They claim batteries
fail at inconvenient times. Me, I want to use my dynohub to operate
flashing lights front and rear, and just be there in emergencies, same
as you carry a spare tube. You do carry a spare tube, don't you,
anonymous Hank?

Quoted message said:

Calling those who disagree with you suicidal makes you the fascist,
especially since you're on the "buy more stuff" side (classical
Italian fascism is also corporatism).

Let's take this bit of empty vituperation section by section:

Quoted message said:

Calling those who disagree with you suicidal

I didn't. I don't care if you and your entire peer group want to
commit suicide by becoming automobile fatality statistics. It is your
right to choose the time and place of your death. I'm a libertarian. I
merely point out that your method will cause stress and expense to
motorists, which is anti-social and and counterproductive for the rest
of us. If you insist on committing suicide, opening a vein in your
bath leads to the least mess.

Quoted message said:

makes you the fascist,
especially since you're on the "buy more stuff" side

Actually, I probably have less invested in my bikes than most people
on RBT, and I bet each of my bikes cost less than 70 per cent of the
bikes ridden by RBTers. I have already pointed out elsewhere that the
dearth of good rear lights, and their prices, is a scandal. I have
explained how you can DIY good lights cheaply. Now you, anonymous
Hank, wants to tag me as the last of the big spenders. Put your mind
in gear, sonny, and stop making a fool of yourself.

Quoted message said:

(classical Italian fascism is also corporatism).

What are you, anonymous Hank, some kind of an undereducated workshop
lecturer at a jumped-up tech now calling itself a "community college"?
Italian fascists were violent socialists, you moron, who wanted state
control of corporations; like [censored] they thought the corporation
should serve the State. You're thinking of the control of the state by
corporations, as in USA today. The two conditions are diametrically
opposed.

Quoted message said:

For the first and only time in my life, I wish I was more like Michael
Press, who had the good sense to walk away from this thread.

You should have, for now we are in a position, as promised, to see who
is a "jackass", which is a packmule, bred by crossing an ass with a
horse, resulting in a dumb, sterile animal. You clearly don't have any
breeding, for you're trying to lay off the guilt of your suicidal
tendency on a stranger. You clearly are a loser who will be no loss to
the gene pool, and in the scheme of things those soon suffer a
darwinian accident. and you clearly are dumb, anonymous Hank. Looks
like you're the jackass.

If you have anything sensible to say about lights, please do feel
welcome.

Andre Jute
Policies not personalities -- Edmund Burke

"Andre Jute" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Hank said:

Andre Jute said:

On Mar 16, 5:44 am, Michael Press <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

*****

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Andre Jute <[email hidden]> wrote:
TOWARDS A NORMATIVE CASE FOR BICYCLE LIGHTS

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1. Bicycle lights are for seeing and being seen.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. In my opinion, bicyclists are not lesser human beings than
motorists. It should be stressed that bicyclists have responsibilities
to motorists as motorists have to cyclists. To meet their
responsibilities, I think cyclists presently require two sets of
lights:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3. One set of lights, driven by batteries, for making a lot of light
that permits the cyclist to see and, more important, to be seen by
motorists.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4. The other set of lights, powered by a hub dynamo, will be always
available as an emergency backup. If these dynohub-driven lights are
LED they can be run constantly because their lifetime is for practical
purposes infinite; they may be used as daylight running lights.
Currently the best front dynohub light is the LED BUMM Fly IQ; it has
no flashing facility. German and Dutch rear bicycle lights, if used
outside their native milieu, need to be supplemented with a brighter
light, preferably flashing. See point 7 below.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

5. We can hope in the light of recent events that sometime in the the
next decade LED dynamo front lights will be powerful enough for both
functions, see and being seen. Unfortunately there seems to be no
impetus for mainstream dynamo light makers to make a brighter rear
light than currently available, and German and Dutch law, in their
major markets, forbid flashing lights. Decent rear dynohub lights (or
battery lights for that matter) with more output and flashing modes
will thus have to come from specialists and will accordingly be
relatively more expensive.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

6. It is my opinion that any cyclist who is not one of a mass of
cyclists in places where motorists routinely expect to see cyclists
should have flashing lights front and rear to establish his presence.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

7. The only rear lights that are good enough to be primary lights are
made by Dinotte and Cateyes (TL-LD1100). German and Dutch lights are
simply too limp, and in any event do not have a flashing facility.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

8. I'm working on finding front flashing lights; my current idea is to
add simple electronics to a BUMM Fly IQ to make it flash; the
Reelights may suit others but won't fit my bike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thoughts, expansions, alternative ideas welcome.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Andre Jute
If at first you don't succeed, try again.

Quoted message said:

*****

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't know the definition but `normative'
means "We're about to drop a barge load of
fertilizer on you. Bon appetit."

Quoted message said:

Normative just means "what should be" or, when I use it and I'm
addressing the Krygo-Fogel School of Ignorance, "I'm telling you from
on high, sonny".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm outta here.

Quoted message said:

I don't see that lights are particularly difficult, except for the
fascist fashion faction who want so much to belong to the crowd that
they will risk their lives to be seen to conform.

And this is why you're a jackass.

We'll see who is the jackass, anonymous Hank, when we've evaluated
your fulminations:

Quoted message said:

You present the false dilemma that
one either:

a) believes in lighting overkill; or

Nope. "Overkill" is your subjective judgement.

Quoted message said:

b) doesn't value his or her own life.

Where did I say that? I said some people will risk their lives so as
to be seen to conform to some pack mentality. That is how highly they
value their lives: to the total extent of belonging. If your peer
group is into dangerous activities, like having inadequate bicycle
lights, then it should be a free choice not to belong, not to be
bullied by your kind of sneering and jeering.

Quoted message said:

Your position is the equivalent to one that people who don't wear both
belts and suspenders (or braces,if you're a Brit) are immodest,
because if you only use a belt, it might break and your pants will
fall down.

Nah, that's the position of the dynohub fanatics. They claim batteries
fail at inconvenient times. Me, I want to use my dynohub to operate
flashing lights front and rear, and just be there in emergencies, same
as you carry a spare tube. You do carry a spare tube, don't you,
anonymous Hank?

Quoted message said:

Calling those who disagree with you suicidal makes you the fascist,
especially since you're on the "buy more stuff" side (classical
Italian fascism is also corporatism).

Let's take this bit of empty vituperation section by section:

Quoted message said:

Calling those who disagree with you suicidal

I didn't. I don't care if you and your entire peer group want to
commit suicide by becoming automobile fatality statistics. It is your
right to choose the time and place of your death. I'm a libertarian. I
merely point out that your method will cause stress and expense to
motorists, which is anti-social and and counterproductive for the rest
of us. If you insist on committing suicide, opening a vein in your
bath leads to the least mess.

Quoted message said:

makes you the fascist,
especially since you're on the "buy more stuff" side

Actually, I probably have less invested in my bikes than most people
on RBT, and I bet each of my bikes cost less than 70 per cent of the
bikes ridden by RBTers. I have already pointed out elsewhere that the
dearth of good rear lights, and their prices, is a scandal. I have
explained how you can DIY good lights cheaply. Now you, anonymous
Hank, wants to tag me as the last of the big spenders. Put your mind
in gear, sonny, and stop making a fool of yourself.

Quoted message said:

(classical Italian fascism is also corporatism).

What are you, anonymous Hank, some kind of an undereducated workshop
lecturer at a jumped-up tech now calling itself a "community college"?
Italian fascists were violent socialists, you moron, who wanted state
control of corporations; like [censored] they thought the corporation
should serve the State. You're thinking of the control of the state by
corporations, as in USA today. The two conditions are diametrically
opposed.

Quoted message said:

For the first and only time in my life, I wish I was more like Michael
Press, who had the good sense to walk away from this thread.

You should have, for now we are in a position, as promised, to see who
is a "jackass", which is a packmule, bred by crossing an ass with a
horse, resulting in a dumb, sterile animal. You clearly don't have any
breeding, for you're trying to lay off the guilt of your suicidal
tendency on a stranger. You clearly are a loser who will be no loss to
the gene pool, and in the scheme of things those soon suffer a
darwinian accident. and you clearly are dumb, anonymous Hank. Looks
like you're the jackass.

If you have anything sensible to say about lights, please do feel
welcome.

Andre Jute
Policies not personalities -- Edmund Burke

Andre,
A jackass is a male ass. A mule is the (usually sterile) offspring of a male
donkey and a female horse. A hinny is the (usually sterile) offspring of a
male horse and a female donkey. None of the three mentioned immediately
above (jackass, mule, hinny) are particularly dumb, either in intelligence
or in ability to make sounds.
Kerry

Kerry Montgomery said:

"Andre Jute" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Hank said:

On Mar 16, 9:19 am, Andre Jute <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Mar 16, 5:44 am, Michael Press <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

*****

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Andre Jute <[email hidden]> wrote:
> TOWARDS A NORMATIVE CASE FOR BICYCLE LIGHTS

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 1. Bicycle lights are for seeing and being seen.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 2. In my opinion, bicyclists are not lesser human beings than
> motorists. It should be stressed that bicyclists have responsibilities
> to motorists as motorists have to cyclists. To meet their
> responsibilities, I think cyclists presently require two sets of
> lights:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 3. One set of lights, driven by batteries, for making a lot of light
> that permits the cyclist to see and, more important, to be seen by
> motorists.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 4. The other set of lights, powered by a hub dynamo, will be always
> available as an emergency backup. If these dynohub-driven lights are
> LED they can be run constantly because their lifetime is for practical
> purposes infinite; they may be used as daylight running lights.
> Currently the best front dynohub light is the LED BUMM Fly IQ; it has
> no flashing facility. German and Dutch rear bicycle lights, if used
> outside their native milieu, need to be supplemented with a brighter
> light, preferably flashing. See point 7 below.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 5. We can hope in the light of recent events that sometime in the the
> next decade LED dynamo front lights will be powerful enough for both
> functions, see and being seen. Unfortunately there seems to be no
> impetus for mainstream dynamo light makers to make a brighter rear
> light than currently available, and German and Dutch law, in their
> major markets, forbid flashing lights. Decent rear dynohub lights (or
> battery lights for that matter) with more output and flashing modes
> will thus have to come from specialists and will accordingly be
> relatively more expensive.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 6. It is my opinion that any cyclist who is not one of a mass of
> cyclists in places where motorists routinely expect to see cyclists
> should have flashing lights front and rear to establish his presence..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 7. The only rear lights that are good enough to be primary lights are
> made by Dinotte and Cateyes (TL-LD1100). German and Dutch lights are
> simply too limp, and in any event do not have a flashing facility.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 8. I'm working on finding front flashing lights; my current idea is to
> add simple electronics to a BUMM Fly IQ to make it flash; the
> Reelights may suit others but won't fit my bike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Thoughts, expansions, alternative ideas welcome.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Andre Jute
> If at first you don't succeed, try again.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

*****

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I don't know the definition but `normative'
> means "We're about to drop a barge load of
> fertilizer on you. Bon appetit."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Normative just means "what should be" or, when I use it and I'm
addressing the Krygo-Fogel School of Ignorance, "I'm telling you from
on high, sonny".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I'm outta here.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't see that lights are particularly difficult, except for the
fascist fashion faction who want so much to belong to the crowd that
they will risk their lives to be seen to conform.

Quoted message said:

And this is why you're a jackass.

We'll see who is the jackass, anonymous Hank, when we've evaluated
your fulminations:

Quoted message said:

You present the false dilemma that
one either:

Quoted message said:

a) believes in lighting overkill; or

Nope. "Overkill" is your subjective judgement.

Quoted message said:

b) doesn't value his or her own life.

Where did I say that? I said some people will risk their lives so as
to be seen to conform to some pack mentality. That is how highly they
value their lives: to the total extent of belonging. If your peer
group is into dangerous activities, like having inadequate bicycle
lights, then it should be a free choice not to belong, not to be
bullied by your kind of sneering and jeering.

Quoted message said:

Your position is the equivalent to one that people who don't wear both
belts and suspenders (or braces,if you're a Brit) are immodest,
because if you only use a belt, it might break and your pants will
fall down.

Nah, that's the position of the dynohub fanatics. They claim batteries
fail at inconvenient times. Me, I want to use my dynohub to operate
flashing lights front and rear, and just be there in emergencies, same
as you carry a spare tube. You do carry a spare tube, don't you,
anonymous Hank?

Quoted message said:

Calling those who disagree with you suicidal makes you the fascist,
especially since you're on the "buy more stuff" side (classical
Italian fascism is also corporatism).

Let's take this bit of empty vituperation section by section:

Quoted message said:

Calling those who disagree with you suicidal

I didn't. I don't care if you and your entire peer group want to
commit suicide by becoming automobile fatality statistics. It is your
right to choose the time and place of your death. I'm a libertarian. I
merely point out that your method will cause stress and expense to
motorists, which is anti-social and and counterproductive for the rest
of us. If you insist on committing suicide, opening a vein in your
bath leads to the least mess.

Quoted message said:

makes you the fascist,
especially since you're on the "buy more stuff" side

Actually, I probably have less invested in my bikes than most people
on RBT, and I bet each of my bikes cost less than 70 per cent of the
bikes ridden by RBTers. I have already pointed out elsewhere that the
dearth of good rear lights, and their prices, is a scandal. I have
explained how you can DIY good lights cheaply. Now you, anonymous
Hank, wants to tag me as the last of the big spenders. Put your mind
in gear, sonny, and stop making a fool of yourself.

Quoted message said:

(classical Italian fascism is also corporatism).

What are you, anonymous Hank, some kind of an undereducated workshop
lecturer at a jumped-up tech now calling itself a "community college"?
Italian fascists were violent socialists, you moron, who wanted state
control of corporations; like [censored] they thought the corporation
should serve the State. You're thinking of the control of the state by
corporations, as in USA today. The two conditions are diametrically
opposed.

Quoted message said:

For the first and only time in my life, I wish I was more like Michael
Press, who had the good sense to walk away from this thread.

You should have, for now we are in a position, as promised, to see who
is a "jackass", which is a packmule, bred by crossing an ass with a
horse, resulting in a dumb, sterile animal. You clearly don't have any
breeding, for you're trying to lay off the guilt of your suicidal
tendency on a stranger. You clearly are a loser who will be no loss to
the gene pool, and in the scheme of things those soon suffer a
darwinian accident. and you clearly are dumb, anonymous Hank. Looks
like you're the jackass.

If you have anything sensible to say about lights, please do feel
welcome.

Andre Jute
Policies not personalities -- Edmund Burke

Andre,
A jackass is a male ass. A mule is the (usually sterile) offspring of a male
donkey and a female horse. A hinny is the (usually sterile) offspring of a
male horse and a female donkey. None of the three mentioned immediately
above (jackass, mule, hinny) are particularly dumb, either in intelligence
or in ability to make sounds.
Kerry

I just live in the countryside, Kerry; I'm not a countryman. Thanks
for the heads-up.

Andre Jute
Never too old to learn something new

normative problem here is cyclists riding at night can't afford
batteries or so they believe. Thye're kitchen help or worse temp
kitchen help, bathroom cleaners and me maybe if I get caught
intwilight riding back with a loada crabs and squid from town center.
butbubutut I carry lights in the backpack then throw in more as fall
progresses so I look like the lectric cyclist.
The usual casulaties here are Mex and rich guys who offended someone.
The night casualties are almost always Mex, black folk being too smart
to go out at night.
This problabbby true nation wide

Andre Jute said:

Hank said:

On Mar 16, 9:19 am, Andre Jute <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Mar 16, 5:44 am, Michael Press <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

*****

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Andre Jute <[email hidden]> wrote:
> TOWARDS A NORMATIVE CASE FOR BICYCLE LIGHTS

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 1. Bicycle lights are for seeing and being seen.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 2. In my opinion, bicyclists are not lesser human beings than
> motorists. It should be stressed that bicyclists have responsibilities
> to motorists as motorists have to cyclists.  To meet their
> responsibilities, I think cyclists presently require two sets of
> lights:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 3. One set of lights, driven by batteries, for making a lot of light
> that permits the cyclist to see and, more important, to be seen by
> motorists.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 4. The other set of lights, powered by a hub dynamo, will be always
> available as an emergency backup. If these dynohub-driven lights are
> LED they can be run constantly because their lifetime is for practical
> purposes infinite; they may be used as daylight running lights.
> Currently the best front dynohub light is the LED BUMM Fly IQ; it has
> no flashing facility. German and Dutch rear bicycle lights, if used
> outside their native milieu, need to be supplemented with a brighter
> light, preferably flashing. See point 7 below.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 5. We can hope in the light of recent events that sometime in the the
> next decade LED dynamo front lights will be powerful enough for both
> functions, see and being seen. Unfortunately there seems to be no
> impetus for mainstream dynamo light makers to make a brighter rear
> light than currently available, and German and Dutch law, in their
> major markets, forbid flashing lights. Decent rear dynohub lights (or
> battery lights for that matter) with more output and flashing modes
> will thus have to come from specialists and will accordingly be
> relatively more expensive.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 6. It is my opinion that any cyclist who is not one of a mass of
> cyclists in places where motorists routinely expect to see cyclists
> should have flashing lights front and rear to establish his presence..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 7. The only rear lights that are good enough to be primary lights are
> made by Dinotte and Cateyes (TL-LD1100). German and Dutch lights are
> simply too limp, and in any event do not have a flashing facility.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 8. I'm working on finding front flashing lights; my current idea is to
> add simple electronics to a BUMM Fly IQ to make it flash; the
> Reelights may suit others but won't fit my bike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Thoughts, expansions, alternative ideas welcome.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Andre Jute
> If at first you don't succeed, try again.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

*****

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I don't know the definition but `normative'
> means "We're about to drop a barge load of
> fertilizer on you. Bon appetit."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Normative just means "what should be" or, when I use it and I'm
addressing the Krygo-Fogel School of Ignorance, "I'm telling you from
on high, sonny".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I'm outta here.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't see that lights are particularly difficult, except for the
fascist fashion faction who want so much to belong to the crowd that
they will risk their lives to be seen to conform.

Quoted message said:

And this is why you're a jackass.

We'll see who is the jackass, anonymous Hank, when we've evaluated
your fulminations:

Where do you get the idea that I'm anonymous? I posted here for
several years with my last name, I believe much longer than you have.
My real email address is there, in the post you quoted, and my last
name is in the domain. Look up the home page for the domain, that's
me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You present the false dilemma that
one either:

Quoted message said:

a) believes in lighting overkill; or

Nope. "Overkill" is your subjective judgement.

As is yours.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

b) doesn't value his or her own life.

Where did I say that? I said some people will risk their lives so as
to be seen to conform to some pack mentality. That is how highly they
value their lives: to the total extent of belonging. If your peer
group is into dangerous activities, like having inadequate bicycle
lights, then it should be a free choice not to belong, not to be
bullied by your kind of sneering and jeering.

Again, adequacy is a subjective judgement. We're not saying you're a
wimp for demanding your overkill, we just want you to stop calling us
suicidal. WHICH YOU JUST DID AGAIN.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Your position is the equivalent to one that people who don't wear both
belts and suspenders (or braces,if you're a Brit) are immodest,
because if you only use a belt, it might break and your pants will
fall down.

Nah, that's the position of the dynohub fanatics. They claim batteries
fail at inconvenient times.

They can and do, but that's not my primary reason for using dynohubs.
I don't want to deal with batteries, period. Both from a convenience
standpoint and an environmental one.

Quoted message said:

Me, I want to use my dynohub to operate
flashing lights front and rear, and just be there in emergencies, same
as you carry a spare tube. You do carry a spare tube, don't you,
anonymous Hank?

Spare tubes cost three dollars and weigh 75 grams. Being a backup
isn't what dynohubs were designed for. They're supposed to be primary
systems. If you only want to have it as a backup, fine, but don't cast
aspersions on those who use it as intended.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Calling those who disagree with you suicidal makes you the fascist,
especially since you're on the "buy more stuff" side (classical
Italian fascism is also corporatism).

Let's take this bit of empty vituperation section by section:

Quoted message said:

Calling those who disagree with you suicidal

I didn't.

Yes, you did.

Quoted message said:

I don't care if you and your entire peer group want to
commit suicide by becoming automobile fatality statistics. It is your
right to choose the time and place of your death. I'm a libertarian. I
merely point out that your method will cause stress and expense to
motorists, which is anti-social and and counterproductive for the rest
of us. If you insist on committing suicide, opening a vein in your
bath leads to the least mess.

There, you just did it again.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

makes you the fascist,
especially since you're on the "buy more stuff" side

Actually, I probably have less invested in my bikes than most people
on RBT, and I bet each of my bikes cost less than 70 per cent of the
bikes ridden by RBTers. I have already pointed out elsewhere that the
dearth of good rear lights, and their prices, is a scandal. I have
explained how you can DIY good lights cheaply. Now you, anonymous
Hank, wants to tag me as the last of the big spenders. Put your mind
in gear, sonny, and stop making a fool of yourself.

Quoted message said:

(classical Italian fascism is also corporatism).

What are you, anonymous Hank, some kind of an undereducated workshop
lecturer at a jumped-up tech now calling itself a "community college"?
Italian fascists were violent socialists, you moron, who wanted state
control of corporations; like [censored] they thought the corporation
should serve the State. You're thinking of the control of the state by
corporations, as in USA today. The two conditions are diametrically
opposed.

No, that's National Socialism, aka Nazism. They're similar, but
diverge when it comes to corporatism.

This article explains the difference-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
From it, I quote: "Fascism in Italy combined elements of corporatism,
totalitarianism, nationalism, militarism and anti-Communism."

And since you asked, I have BAs in English and Philosophy (both with
pre-law options), and a minor in PoliSci from a major Land Grant
University.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For the first and only time in my life, I wish I was more like Michael
Press, who had the good sense to walk away from this thread.

You should have, for now we are in a position, as promised, to see who
is a "jackass", which is a packmule, bred by crossing an ass with a
horse, resulting in a dumb, sterile animal. You clearly don't have any
breeding, for you're trying to lay off the guilt of your suicidal
tendency on a stranger. You clearly are a loser who will be no loss to
the gene pool, and in the scheme of things those soon suffer a
darwinian accident. and you clearly are dumb, anonymous Hank. Looks
like you're the jackass.

"I'm rubber, you're glue" - THAT'S your argument?

Have a nice day.

Andre Jute said:

On Mar 16, 5:45 pm, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

Andre Jute said:

TOWARDS A NORMATIVE CASE FOR BICYCLE LIGHTS

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1. Bicycle lights are for seeing and being seen.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. In my opinion, bicyclists are not lesser human beings than
motorists. It should be stressed that bicyclists have responsibilities
to motorists as motorists have to cyclists.  To meet their
responsibilities, I think cyclists presently require two sets of
lights:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3. One set of lights, driven by batteries, for making a lot of light
that permits the cyclist to see and, more important, to be seen by
motorists.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4. The other set of lights, powered by a hub dynamo, will be always
available as an emergency backup. If these dynohub-driven lights are
LED they can be run constantly because their lifetime is for practical
purposes infinite; they may be used as daylight running lights.
Currently the best front dynohub light is the LED BUMM Fly IQ; it has
no flashing facility. German and Dutch rear bicycle lights, if used
outside their native milieu, need to be supplemented with a brighter
light, preferably flashing. See point 7 below.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

5. We can hope in the light of recent events that sometime in the the
next decade LED dynamo front lights will be powerful enough for both
functions, see and being seen. Unfortunately there seems to be no
impetus for mainstream dynamo light makers to make a brighter rear
light than currently available, and German and Dutch law, in their
major markets, forbid flashing lights. Decent rear dynohub lights (or
battery lights for that matter) with more output and flashing modes
will thus have to come from specialists and will accordingly be
relatively more expensive.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

6. It is my opinion that any cyclist who is not one of a mass of
cyclists in places where motorists routinely expect to see cyclists
should have flashing lights front and rear to establish his presence.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

7. The only rear lights that are good enough to be primary lights are
made by Dinotte and Cateyes (TL-LD1100). German and Dutch lights are
simply too limp, and in any event do not have a flashing facility.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

8. I'm working on finding front flashing lights; my current idea is to
add simple electronics to a BUMM Fly IQ to make it flash; the
Reelights may suit others but won't fit my bike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thoughts, expansions, alternative ideas welcome.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Andre Jute
If at first you don't succeed, try again.

Quoted message said:

I use a Sigma Cuberider rear light

Quoted message said:

http://www.sigmasport.com/en/produkte/beleuchtung/standard_lights/cub...

Quoted message said:

when I will be riding in the dark or dusk. Nice and slim and easy to
move from bike to bike.

Quoted message said:

If I will be riding in the dark, I use a Silva 480 headlight:

Quoted message said:

http://tinyurl.com/yt8gwp

Quoted message said:

I only ride in the dark off-road with occasional short transfers on
the road from one forest area to another. If I rode on the road in the
dark, I would use a bar mounted light for illumination. A headlight is
nice because it can be moved around.

Quoted message said:

When it is light and good visibility I don't use lights. I have
reflective tape (in black!) on my bike in various places.

Quoted message said:

Whether I use lights or not, I ride as though I were invisible at
night.

Quoted message said:

I ride in rural conditions, with the occasional suburban foray. Back
when I lived in a big city, I never used lights, and took it upon
myself to keep myslef out of harm's way. Any use of lights would have
have given me false confidence from the potentially false assumption
that I would be seen.

Quoted message said:

Joseph

So you ride like a cat walks on a hot tin roof. I do wonder though if
a guy who has clearly thought about what he wants and needs should be
in the least concerned about "false confidence."

Anything that requires someone else to actively do something or other
so that I don't get squashed is asking for trouble. We of course do
this all day long in one manner or another, but vulnerablity one
suffers on a bike makes me be extra wary. It doesn't mean I'm nervous,
just wary. As I am wary of branches poking me in the eye.

Joseph

Quoted message said:

I find that one of the big advantages of sitting tall on my Dutch city
bikes is that in daytime, and in close traffic at night, I can make
eye-contact with the drivers of SUVs. Once they've looked you in the
eye it is really very rare for them to do something stupid near you.