Olestra:really safe !?

11 Dec 2003 00:00:45 -0800 in article
<[email hidden]> [email hidden] (The

Moon's Neighbor) said:

Is olestra really safe to use it in snack foods !?

IMHO most snack foods are not safe, with or without Olestra.

Olestra is an idiotic idea related to idiotic low-food diets. We need healthy fats such as
monounsaturated fatty acids from extra virgin olive oils and omega-3s from fish. The healthiest
known diet, the traditional Mediterranean diet of Crete contains 40% of fat.

--
Matti Narkia

Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:20:08 +0200 in article
<[email hidden]> Matti Narkia

Quoted message said:

11 Dec 2003 00:00:45 -0800 in article <[email hidden]>

(The Moon's Neighbor) said:

Is olestra really safe to use it in snack foods !?

IMHO most snack foods are not safe, with or without Olestra.

Olestra is an idiotic idea related to idiotic low-food diets.

Oops, should've been low-fat diets :-) :-). I haven't slept enough, I think :-).

--
Matti Narkia

[email hidden] (The Moon's Neighbor) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Is olestra really safe to use it in snack foods !?

olestra is BAD.

I agree, Olestra in not approved in alot of countries as it in inhibits absorption of fat
soluble vitamins.

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:20:08 +0200 in article <[email hidden]> Matti

Narkia said:

11 Dec 2003 00:00:45 -0800 in article <[email hidden]>

(The Moon's Neighbor) said:

Is olestra really safe to use it in snack foods !?

IMHO most snack foods are not safe, with or without Olestra.

Olestra is an idiotic idea related to idiotic low-food diets.

Oops, should've been low-fat diets :-) :-). I haven't slept enough, I think :-).

--
Matti Narkia

[email hidden] (amanda) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (The Moon's Neighbor) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Is olestra really safe to use it in snack foods !?

olestra is BAD.

Could you explain why is it bad, please !?

A2K said:

I agree, Olestra in not approved in alot of countries as it in inhibits absorption of fat soluble
vitamins.

Minor inconveniences such as anal leakage, aka the squitters, the [censored], severe diarrhea,
incontinence from the back door or "may cause abdominal cramping or loose stools." Fake fat. I think
10w40 motor oil is healthier. Procter and Gamble deserves the supreme deception award of the
century. Then again aspertane(sp)is a close candidate.

The Canadians banned this [censored] is 2000.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

The Moon's Neighbor said:

Could you explain why is it bad, please !?

Just run olestra through your favortite search engine and have a good read.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Olestra is an idiotic idea related to idiotic low-food diets. We need healthy fats such as
monounsaturated fatty acids from extra virgin olive oils and omega-3s from fish. The healthiest
known diet, the traditional Mediterranean diet of Crete contains 40% of fat.

The Cretan Mediterranean diet works best in Cretans who plow fields and walk 9 miles a day.

The typical Asian peasant, and in particular, the Okinawan elder diet is superior to the Cretan
Mediterranean diet in many aspects, probably due to the reduced fat content and increased fish and
vegetable content.

Okinawan elders get 6-24% of their calories from fat with a ratio of monosaturated: pufa: saturated
at about 2.4:1:1.5.

According to a WHO health report (International Comparisons of mortality rates for cancer of the
breast, ovary, prostate, and colon, and per capita food consumption. Cancer 58:2363-71), the low fat
Okinwawan and Japanese populations have much lower rates of all these types of cancers compared to
Greeks and Italians. CHD and stroke death rates are also much lower for Okinwans and Japanese than
Mediterranean populations, even though their diets are very low to low in fat.

Do you think that Okinawan Elders are idiots?

Do you think that they would be smarter if they ate fewer vegetables and more MUFA? Perhaps then
their cancer, CHD, and stroke deaths would rise so as to be equivalent to those of the
Mediterraneans.

Once upon a time, our fellow giselle rambled on about "Re: Olestra:really safe !?." Our champion De-
Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

Quoted message said:

The Cretan Mediterranean diet works best in Cretans who plow fields and walk 9 miles a day.

That diet was originally a 40% High-Fat diet. Those same Cretans also particate in a 4 hour lunch
every day.

The Cretan Mediterranean diet which is billed as a healthy diet in the popular press has been
adjusted to a 35% Low-Fat diet which takes into account the lower activity levels of office workers.

Just thought that you might want to know. 🙂

Hark! My private health newsgroup beckons!
--
John Gohde,
Achieving good Nutrition is an Art, NOT a Science!

The nutrition of eating a healthy diet is the foundation of the
biopsychosocial model of natural health. Weighing in at 17 webpages,
Nutrition (food.naturalhealthperspective.comfood.naturalhealthperspective.comOpen ↗) is now
with more documentation and sharper terminology than ever before.

Sat, 13 Dec 2003 18:01:38 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> "giselle"

Quoted message said:

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Olestra is an idiotic idea related to idiotic low-food diets. We need healthy fats such as
monounsaturated fatty acids from extra virgin olive oils and omega-3s from fish. The healthiest
known diet, the traditional Mediterranean diet of Crete contains 40% of fat.

The Cretan Mediterranean diet works best in Cretans who plow fields and walk 9 miles a day.

Is that so? Perhaps you should check the abstract

Kouris-Blazos A, Gnardellis C, Wahlqvist ML, Trichopoulos D, Lukito W, Trichopoulou A. Are the
advantages of the Mediterranean diet transferable to other populations? A cohort study in Melbourne,
Australia. Br J Nutr. 1999 Jul;82(1):57-61. PMID: 10655957 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <w-w-Open ↗
ww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10655957&dopt=Abstract>

Quoted message said:

The typical Asian peasant, and in particular, the Okinawan elder diet is superior to the Cretan
Mediterranean diet in many aspects, probably due to the reduced fat content and increased fish and
vegetable content.

Says who? I think that there is no doubt about the healthiness of the Okinawan diet, but there is no
study where the Okinawan diet would have been compared with the traditional Cretan diet (of 50s, 60s
and earlier).

The only study I found from Medline which as far as mentions both Mediterranean and
Okinawan diets is

Liu XQ, Li YH. Epidemiological and nutritional research on prevention of cardiovascular disease in
China. Br J Nutr. 2000 Dec;84 Suppl 2:S199-203. <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11242470&dopt=Abstract>

and even this study makes no comparisons.

Cretan diet, however, has been compared with the diets of different countries including Japan
(unfortunately Okinawa was not included as a separate entity) as well as with the diet of different
parts of Greece in the famous Seven Countries Study started in 50s. Below some statistics from this
study, first from the web page

ALPHA & OMEGA. Cretan diet alpha-omegaonline.co.ukdiet crete.htmOpen ↗ :

This chart (Ancel Keys, 1986) shows the death rate in 8 different areas on earth, four of which are
in the Mediterranean. Crete is not only the last in the number of deaths but the difference between
the island and any other areas on the chart is huge!

Disease Heart Cancer Other diseases Finland 972 613 2169 USA 773 384 1575 Holland 636 781 1825 Italy
462 622 1874 Yugoslavia 242 394 1712 Corfu 202 338 1317 Japan 136 623 1766 Crete 38 317 855 (Angel
Keys 1986)

Secondly, a chart from the page

Cretan Nutrition and long life crete-homes.comhistory.htmlOpen ↗ :

In the second chart there is a comparison between the results that were recorded in the 7 years
(till 1986) and the results that are given from the International Health Organisation for every
100.000 inhabitant (Pro. Serge Renaud, 1995). Crete is also the last on the chart in death rates!

7 Countries (10 years) I.H.O. (1987) Coronary Thromb. Death Rate Coronary Thromb Death Rate
Finland 466 1390 386 1210 U.S.A. 424 961 263 1061 Holland 317 1134 224 1016 Italy 200 1092 148
1066 Yugoslavia 145 1021 137 1302 Kerkyra 149 847 123 932 Japan 61 1200 53 837 Crete 9 627 7 564

More statistics from the Seven Countries Study:

Research statistics about the Cretan diet
cretetravel.comCretan Diet research.htmOpen ↗

Statistical health data about Cretan diet ebeh.grresultsindex.htmOpen ↗

Menotti A, Kromhout D, Blackburn H, Fidanza F, Buzina R, Nissinen A. Food intake patterns and 25-
year mortality from coronary heart disease: cross-cultural correlations in the Seven Countries
Study. The Seven Countries Study Research Group. Eur J Epidemiol. 1999 Jul;15(6):507-15. PMID:
10485342 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
&db=PubMed&list_uids=10485342&dopt=Abstract>

Keys A, Menotti A, Karvonen MJ, Aravanis C, Blackburn H, Buzina R, Djordjevic BS, Dontas AS, Fidanza
F, Keys MH, et al. The diet and 15-year death rate in the seven countries study. Am J Epidemiol.
1986 Dec;124(6):903-15. PMID: 3776973 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <ncbi.nlm.nih.goveOpen ↗
ntrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3776973&dopt=Abstract>

Note also that the diet of Crete has changed to unhealthier direction since 60s:

Voukiklaris GE, Kafatos A, Dontas AS. Changing prevalence of coronary heart disease risk factors and
cardiovascular diseases in men of a rural area of Crete from 1960 to 1991. Angiology. 1996 Jan;47(1):43-
9. PMID: 8546344 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8546344&dopt=Abstract>

Therefore recent statistics do not describe the healthiness of the traditional Cretan diet.

Quoted message said:

Okinawan elders get 6-24% of their calories from fat with a ratio of monosaturated: pufa: saturated
at about 2.4:1:1.5.

6% sounds almost impossible to achieve, are you sure you have your figures right? Even if it
were true I think that most people would find so low fat diet unpalatable and extremely
difficult to follow.

See also what Harvard researcher Walter C Willett says about low-fat diets:

Concepts and Controversies on Diet: Stop Recommending Low-Fat Diets! Walter C Willett, MD, DrPH
Kaiser Permanente Permanente Journal, September 2003
countcarbs.comstoprecommendinglowfat.htmOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

According to a WHO health report (International Comparisons of mortality rates for cancer of the
breast, ovary, prostate, and colon, and per capita food consumption. Cancer 58:2363-71), the low
fat Okinwawan and Japanese populations have much lower rates of all these types of cancers compared
to Greeks and Italians.

Morbidity and mortality rates of Crete have been and probably still are a lot lower than in other
parts of Greece, and in the Seven Countries Study Crete's CHD, cancer and overall mortality rates
were much lower than those of Japan, see the charts above. Having said that, as mentioned above,
Crete's morbidity and mortality rates are no longer as good as in 60s, because of the change in
diet patterns.

Quoted message said:

CHD and stroke death rates are also much lower for Okinwans and Japanese than Mediterranean
populations, even though their diets are very low to low in fat.

As seen from the charts presented and as mentioned above, in the Seven Countries Study Crete's
CHD mortality rate was much lower than Japan's, which admittedly was lower than Corfu's (another
Greek island).

Quoted message said:

Do you think that Okinawan Elders are idiots?

No, neither were Cretans in 50s or 60s (they still aren't, but perhaps younger generation is no
longer as wise dietwise than the earlier generations).

Quoted message said:

Do you think that they would be smarter if they ate fewer vegetables and more MUFA? Perhaps then
their cancer, CHD, and stroke deaths would rise so as to be equivalent to those of the
Mediterraneans.

Fewer vegetables? Cretans ate tons of vegetables, many of them wild herbs. They also ate lots of
nuts and almonds which have been found to protect from CHD. But perhaps Okinawans could benefit from
some extra virgin olive oil, who knows?

I'm quite convinced that both Okinawan and traditional Cretan diets are among the healthiest diets
known. However, there is more research about Cretan type diet, it's effect on CHD has for example
been proven in two randomized controlled clinical trials, in the "Indo-Mediterranean diet" study
(see Singh et al. Nov. 2002, and Hu Jun. 2003 below) and in Lyon Diet Heart Study (see de Lorgeril
et al. Jun. 1994, de Lorgeril at al. Feb 1999, Leaf Feb. 1999 and Hu Jun. 2003 below). IMHO, the
Cretan diet may also be easier to follow, at least for non-Japanese.

As for additional research about Mediterranean diet see the reference below:

Mediterranean diet related Medline references
---------------------------------------------

Trichogenous A, Costacou T, Bamia C, Trichopoulos D. Adherence to a Mediterranean diet and survival
in a Greek population. N Engl J Med. 2003 Jun 26;348(26):2599-608. PMID: 12826634 [PubMed - indexed
for MEDLINE] <http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/348/26/2599>

Commented in

Close Adherence to a Traditional Mediterranean Diet Promotes Longevity
<http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/press/releases/press06252003.html>

Mediterranean diet 'extends life' <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3173077.stm>

and

Mediterranean Diet: More Than Olive Oil 'Divine Mix' Prevents Death From Cancer, Heart Disease
<http://my.webmd.com/content/article/67/80070.htm>

Hu FB The Mediterranean Diet and Mortality — Olive Oil and Beyond N Engl J Med. 2003 Jun 26;348(26):2595-
6. <http://www.medical-journals.com/r03266b.htm>
<http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/extract/348/26/2595>

Choi SB. Benefits of Mediterranean diet affirmed, again. CMAJ. 2003 Aug 19;169(4):316.
<http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/169/4/316>

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Caterina R. Olive oil and red wine antioxidant polyphenols inhibit endothelial activation:
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--
Matti Narkia

Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:52:55 +0200 in article
<[email hidden]> Matti Narkia

Quoted message said:

Sat, 13 Dec 2003 18:01:38 GMT in article <[email hidden]> "giselle"

Quoted message said:

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Olestra is an idiotic idea related to idiotic low-food diets. We need healthy fats such as
monounsaturated fatty acids from extra virgin olive oils and omega-3s from fish. The healthiest
known diet, the traditional Mediterranean diet of Crete contains 40% of fat.

The Cretan Mediterranean diet works best in Cretans who plow fields and walk 9 miles a day.

Is that so? Perhaps you should check the abstract

Kouris-Blazos A, Gnardellis C, Wahlqvist ML, Trichopoulos D, Lukito W, Trichopoulou A. Are the
advantages of the Mediterranean diet transferable to other populations? A cohort study in
Melbourne, Australia. Br J Nutr. 1999 Jul;82(1):57-61. PMID: 10655957 [PubMed - indexed for
MEDLINE] <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
dopt=Abstract>

See also the study

Singh RB, Dubnov G, Niaz MA, Ghosh S, Singh R, Rastogi SS, Manor O, Pella D, Berry EM. Effect of an
Indo-Mediterranean diet on progression of coronary artery disease in high risk patients (Indo-
Mediterranean Diet Heart Study): a randomised single-blind trial. Lancet. 2002 Nov 9;360(9344):1455-
61 <http://www.thelancet.com/journal/vol360/iss9344/full/llan.360.9344.original_research.23027.1>

--
Matti Narkia

Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:52:55 +0200 in article
<[email hidden]> Matti Narkia

Quoted message said:

Cretans ate tons of vegetables, many of them wild herbs. They also ate lots of nuts and almonds
which have been found to protect from CHD.

Below some references about health effects of nuts:

Garcia-Lorda P, Megias Rangil I, Salas-Salvado J. Nut consumption, body weight and insulin
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Sabate J. Nut consumption and body weight. Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Sep;78(3 Suppl):647S-650S. Review.
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Zibaeenezhad MJ, Rezaiezadeh M, Mowla A, Ayatollahi SM, Panjehshahin MR. Antihypertriglyceridemic
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Sabate J, Haddad E, Tanzman JS, Jambazian P, Rajaram S. Serum lipid response to the graduated
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Coulston AM. Do Nuts Have a Place in a Healthful Diet? Nutr Today. 2003 May-Jun;38(3):95-99. PMID:
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Jiang R, Manson JE, Stampfer MJ, Liu S, Willett WC, Hu FB. Nut and peanut butter consumption and
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Morgan JM, Horton K, Reese D, Carey C, Walker K, Capuzzi DM. Effects of walnut consumption as part
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Albert CM, Gaziano JM, Willett WC, Manson JE. Nut consumption and decreased risk of sudden cardiac
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Feldman EB. The scientific evidence for a beneficial health relationship between walnuts and
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Ellsworth JL, Kushi LH, Folsom AR. Frequent nut intake and risk of death from coronary heart disease
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Kris-Etherton PM, Zhao G, Binkoski AE, Coval SM, Etherton TD. R The effects of nuts on coronary
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.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9481526&dopt=Abstract>

Dreher ML, Maher CV, Kearney P. The traditional and emerging role of nuts in healthful diets. Nutr
Rev. 1996 Aug;54(8):241-5. Review. PMID: 8961751 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <ncbi.nl-ncbi.nl-Open ↗
m.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8961751&dopt=Abstract>

Sabate J. Does nut consumption protect against ischaemic heart disease? Eur J Clin Nutr. 1993 Sep;47
Suppl 1:S71-5. Review. PMID: 8269904 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <ncbi.nlm.nih.govenOpen ↗
trez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8269904&dopt=Abstract>

Fraser GE, Sabate J, Beeson WL, Strahan TM. A possible protective effect of nut consumption on risk
of coronary heart disease. The Adventist Health Study. Arch Intern Med. 1992 Jul;152(7):1416-24.
PMID: 1627021 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
rieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1627021&dopt=Abstract>

--
Matti Narkia

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Cretan Mediterranean diet works best in Cretans who plow fields and walk 9 miles a day.

Is that so?

Yes, it is so. Such were the Mediterraneans that Keys knew. In less active types, 40% MUFA is likely
to lead to excess fat in the body. The recent Greeks are losing their edge in that they have dropped
some vegetables, fruits, and legumes as well as activity, while increasing red meats and junk
carbohydrate, but they are still maintaining their high MUFA high fat diets. The result is one of
the highest rates of obesity in Europe.

Quoted message said:

Perhaps you should check the abstract

Yes, I have seen most, if not all of them, and the full papers, when they are free.

The clinical trials show that replacing saturated fat or trans fat with MUFA has some benefit in a
high risk population.

Big deal. This does not indicate that 40% fat is in any way superior to a 24% or lower. It's just
easier for a person who is accustomed to a junk high fat diet to switch to a MUFA high fat diet than
a low-to-moderate fat diet which is very high in fruits, vegetables, soluble fibers, and with some
whole grains and legumes, which would yield perhaps the greatest range of benefits of all, and this
is fairly consistent with epidemiological data from populations known for longevity and centenarian
diet studies.

See the Jenkins very high fiber diet interventions, at 22% fat, which yielded astonishing
improvements in lipid profiles, among other things, in only two weeks.

The problem with a lower fat diet is adherence. It is not idiocy and not due to any other inherent
flaw. In a lower fat diet with high fruit/vegetable/fiber intakes, there are greater antioxidant and
beneficial phytochemical intakes as well as most micronutrients.

In contrast, excess MUFA is mostly empty calories after a point.

It is not a big surprise that there is no longevity population in the high fat category and that no
Mediterranean populations are known for their longevity. If you know of any exception, please cite.

It is apparent that you have neglected many other data sources, because if you had seen them, you
would not be throwing the term "idiotic" around so loosely.

Also, perhaps you should check the Campbell China studies--some 100,000 people were surveyed.

Sun, 14 Dec 2003 00:27:37 +0200 in article
<[email hidden]> Matti Narkia

Quoted message said:

Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:52:55 +0200 in article <[email hidden]> Matti

Narkia said:

Sat, 13 Dec 2003 18:01:38 GMT in article <[email hidden]> "giselle"

Quoted message said:

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote

> Olestra is an idiotic idea related to idiotic low-food diets. We need healthy fats such as
> monounsaturated fatty acids from extra virgin olive oils and omega-3s from fish. The healthiest
> known diet, the traditional Mediterranean diet of Crete contains 40% of fat.

The Cretan Mediterranean diet works best in Cretans who plow fields and walk 9 miles a day.

Is that so? Perhaps you should check the abstract

Kouris-Blazos A, Gnardellis C, Wahlqvist ML, Trichopoulos D, Lukito W, Trichopoulou A. Are the
advantages of the Mediterranean diet transferable to other populations? A cohort study in
Melbourne, Australia. Br J Nutr. 1999 Jul;82(1):57-61. PMID: 10655957 [PubMed - indexed for
MEDLINE] <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
&dopt=Abstract>

See also the study

Singh RB, Dubnov G, Niaz MA, Ghosh S, Singh R, Rastogi SS, Manor O, Pella D, Berry EM. Effect of an
Indo-Mediterranean diet on progression of coronary artery disease in high risk patients (Indo-
Mediterranean Diet Heart Study): a randomised single-blind trial. Lancet. 2002 Nov 9;360(9344):1455-
61 <http://www.thelancet.com/journal/vol360/iss9344/full/llan.360.9344.original_research.23027.1>

And also the following Lyon Diet Heart Study related studies and articles:

de Lorgeril M, Renaud S, Mamelle N, Salen P, Martin JL, Monjaud I, Guidollet J, Touboul P, Delaye J.
Mediterranean alpha-linolenic acid-rich diet in secondary prevention of coronary heart disease.
Lancet. 1994 Jun 11;343(8911):1454-9. Erratum in: Lancet 1995 Mar 18;345(8951):738. PMID: 7911176
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
d&list_uids=7911176&dopt=Abstract>

Renaud S, de Lorgeril M, Delaye J, Guidollet J, Jacquard F, Mamelle N, Martin JL, Monjaud I, Salen
P, Toubol P. Cretan Mediterranean diet for prevention of coronary heart disease. Am J Clin Nutr.
1995 Jun;61(6 Suppl):1360S-1367S. PMID: 7754988 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <ncbi.nlm-ncbi.nlm-Open ↗
.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7754988&dopt=Abstract>

De Lorgeril M, Salen P, Martin JL, Mamelle N, Monjaud I, Touboul P, Delaye J. Effect of a
mediterranean type of diet on the rate of cardiovascular complications in patients with coronary
artery disease. Insights into the cardioprotective effect of certain nutriments. J Am Coll Cardiol.
1996 Nov 1;28(5):1103-8. <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
_uids=8890801&dopt=Abstract>

de Lorgeril M, Salen P, Martin JL, Monjaud I, Boucher P, Mamelle N. Mediterranean dietary pattern in
a randomized trial: prolonged survival and possible reduced cancer rate. Arch Intern Med. 1998 Jun
8;158(11):1181-7. <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
625397&dopt=Abstract>

de Lorgeril M, Salen P, Martin J-L, Monjaud I, Delaye J, Mamelle N: Mediterranean diet, traditional
risk factors and the rate of cardiovascular complications after myocardial infarction. Final report
of the Lyon Diet Heart Study. Circulation 1999, February 16, 99:779-785
<http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/99/6/779>

Leaf A. Dietary prevention of coronary heart disease: the Lyon Diet Heart Study. Circulation. 1999
Feb 16;99(6):733-5. <http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/99/6/733>

Serge Renaud: from French paradox to Cretan miracle. Lancet 2000; 355: 48 - 52.
<http://www.thelancet.com/journal/vol355/iss9197/full/llan.355.9197.news.2419.1>

Kris-Etherton P, Eckel RH, Howard BV, St Jeor S, Bazzarre TL; Nutrition Committee Population Science
Committee and Clinical Science Committee of the American Heart Association. AHA Science Advisory:
Lyon Diet Heart Study. Benefits of a Mediterranean-style, National Cholesterol Education
Program/American Heart Association Step I Dietary Pattern on Cardiovascular Disease. Circulation.
2001 Apr 3;103(13):1823-5. <http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/103/13/1823>

--
Matti Narkia

Sat, 13 Dec 2003 23:22:52 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> "giselle" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Cretan Mediterranean diet works best in Cretans who plow fields and walk 9 miles a day.

Is that so?

Yes, it is so.

Unfortunately I cannot take only your word for it. In the absence of any convincing evidence I think
we just have to agree to disagree.

Quoted message said:

Such were the Mediterraneans that Keys knew.

So you say, but do you have anything to back it up?

Quoted message said:

In less active types, 40% MUFA is likely to lead to excess fat in the body.

In isocaloric diets fat larger fat content does not lead to excess fat accumulation. See the
Willett's article I mentioned earlier and

Fats and Cholesterol hsph.harvard.edufats.htmlOpen ↗

Food Pyramids hsph.harvard.edupyramids.htmlOpen ↗

BTW, 40% fat does not mean 40% MUFA, but approximately 15-25% MUFA.

Quoted message said:

The recent Greeks are losing their edge in that they have dropped some vegetables, fruits, and
legumes as well as activity, while increasing red meats and junk carbohydrate, but they are still
maintaining their high MUFA high fat diets.

That's true also for some of the Cretans as I mentioned. Still, we were discussing the _traditional_
Cretan diet of 50s, 60s and earlier for which your comment is irrelevant.

Quoted message said:

The result is one of the highest rates of obesity in Europe.

Evidence? Even if true, it's irrelevant, see above.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps you should check the abstract

Yes, I have seen most, if not all of them, and the full papers, when they are free.

So? You implied that Cretan traditional diet is only good for Cretans. Research shows otherwise.

Quoted message said:

The clinical trials show that replacing saturated fat or trans fat with MUFA has some benefit in a
high risk population.

Big deal. This does not indicate that 40% fat is in any way superior to a 24% or lower.

It depends on the fats and what the fats have been used to replace.

Quoted message said:

It's just easier for a person who is accustomed to a junk high fat diet to switch to a MUFA high
fat diet than a low-to-moderate fat diet which is very high in fruits, vegetables, soluble fibers,
and with some whole grains and legumes, which would yield perhaps the greatest range of benefits of
all, and this is fairly consistent with epidemiological data from populations known for longevity
and centenarian diet studies.

The key word in your above comment is _perhaps_

Quoted message said:

See the Jenkins very high fiber diet interventions, at 22% fat, which yielded astonishing
improvements in lipid profiles, among other things, in only two weeks.

Risk factors (like lipid profiles) are just that. The real tests are morbidity and mortality rates,
which were astonishing low for Crete in the Seven Countries Study.

Quoted message said:

The problem with a lower fat diet is adherence.

You can say that again. Diet which cannot be followed is not worth much. Also, in some people low
fat diet converts large LDL particles to smaller, more atherogenic LDL particles.

Quoted message said:

It is not idiocy and not due to any other inherent flaw. In a lower fat diet with high
fruit/vegetable/fiber intakes, there are greater antioxidant and beneficial phytochemical intakes
as well as most micronutrients.

Not necessarily. Extra virgin olive oil has high content of phenolic antioxidants. Also, research
suggests that replacing fat with carbohydrates is not necessarily a good idea.

Quoted message said:

In contrast, excess MUFA is mostly empty calories after a point.

How do you know what is excess? Besides, extra virgin olive oil has lots of other useful nutrients
in addition to fat. Phenolic antioxidants and vitamin E for example.

Quoted message said:

It is not a big surprise that there is no longevity population in the high fat category and that no
Mediterranean populations are known for their longevity. If you know of any exception, please cite.

Crete has been mentioned several times already. Cretan CHD, cancer and overall mortality rates were
lower than in any other country in the Seven Countries Study, including Japan.

Quoted message said:

It is apparent that you have neglected many other data sources, because if you had seen them, you
would not be throwing the term "idiotic" around so loosely.

Any diet which cannot be followed is idiotic. Besides, very-low-fat diets have some negative health
effects, see the references and links provided earlier.

Quoted message said:

Also, perhaps you should check the Campbell China studies--some 100,000 people were surveyed.

Perhaps you could first mention why I should be interested. Is China known for longevity?

You seem to have some kind of agenda concerning low fat diets, which may prevent you from making
objective observations about traditional Cretan diet. See the references I've provided in
various messages.

--
Matti Narkia

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:52:55 +0200 in article <[email hidden]> Matti

Narkia said:

Cretans ate tons of vegetables, many of them wild herbs. They also ate lots of nuts and almonds
which have been found to protect from CHD.

They do not eat as many servings as the Okinawan elders, who average 7-13 servings, but sometimes
get 20 or more.

Quoted message said:

Below some references about health effects of nuts:

I've read all of those, too.

Nuts should be not excluded in a healthy diet. They can still be incorporated in a diet that
consists of significantly less than 30% fat, and have been, in many of the Jenkins clinical trials.

Here is some data that you missed:

okinawaway.comokinawaway.comOpen ↗ Mortality Rates in Long-Lived Populations Age Adjusted Death Rates (per
100,000 people) Rank* Location Life Expectancy CHD** Cancer Stroke All Causes 1 Okinawa 81.2 18 97
35 335 2 Japan 79.9 22 106 45 364 3 Hong Kong 79.1 40 126 40 393 4 Sweden 79.0 102 108 38 435 8
Italy 78.3 55 135 49 459 10 Greece 78.1 55 109 70 449 18 USA 76.8 100 132 28 520

* Average life expectancy world rank ** Coronary Heart Disease Sources: World Health Organization
1996; Japan Ministry of Health and Welfare 1996

And a paper suggesting that we learn from more than one population or clinical trials only:

Evidence-based nutrition Dimitrios TrichopoulosMD, Pagona Lagiou, and Antonia TrichopoulouMD Asia
Pacific Journal of Clinical Nutrition Volume 9 Issue Suppl. Page S4 - October 2000 doi:10.1046/j.1440-
6047.2000.00174.x Vol. 9 Issue Suppl. blackwell-synergy.comj.1440Open ↗
6047.2000.00174.x/full/

Also, in their *2003* nutrition report, WHO/FAO suggests that there is "no convincing benefit" for
fat intakes beyond 20%. You can download the full report here (link is at the bottom of the page).
who.intenOpen ↗

Surely the panel of experts contributing to this report are not all idiots. Nor are Wilcox, Wilcox,
and Suzuki, nor is David Jenkins, who used himself as one of the subjects in his very high fiber
diet paper, and who is currently seeking contrived ways to get similar benefits from a low fat very
high fiber diet in a higher fat lower fiber diet (so as to ease compliance).

More refs:

The Garden of Eden: Implications for cardiovascular disease ... Jenkins, David JA., Jenkins, AL,
Kendall, CWC, Vuksan, V & Vidgen, E (2000) blackwell-synergy.comj.1440Open ↗
6047.2000.00164.x/full/

Jenkins DJ, Kendall CW, Marchie A, Jenkins AL, Connelly PW, Jones PJ, Vuksan V. The Garden of Eden--
plant based diets, the genetic drive to conserve cholesterol and its implications for heart
disease in the 21st century. Comp Biochem Physiol A Mol Integr Physiol. 2003 Sep;136(1):141-51.
PMID: 14527636

Jenkins DJ, Kendall CW, Popovich DG, Vidgen E, Mehling CC, Vuksan V, Ransom TP, Rao AV, Rosenberg-
Zand R, Tariq N, Corey P, Jones PJ, Raeini M, Story JA, Furumoto EJ, Illingworth DR, Pappu AS,
Connelly PW. Effect of a very-high-fiber vegetable, fruit, and nut diet on serum lipids and colonic
function. Metabolism. 2001 Apr;50(4):494-503. PMID: 11288049 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] [a 22%
fat diet that included 90 g of nuts per day]

Jenkins DJ, Kendall CW, Marchie A, Faulkner DA, Wong JM, de Souza R, Emam A, Parker TL, Vidgen E,
Lapsley KG, Trautwein EA, Josse RG, Leiter LA, Connelly PW. Effects of a dietary portfolio of cholesterol-
lowering foods vs lovastatin on serum lipids and C-reactive protein. JAMA. 2003 Jul 23;290(4):502-
10. PMID: 12876093 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

For particulars in implementation: portfoliodiet.comportfoliodiet.comOpen ↗

Sun, 14 Dec 2003 00:16:42 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> "giselle" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:52:55 +0200 in article <[email hidden]> Matti

Narkia said:

Cretans ate tons of vegetables, many of them wild herbs. They also ate lots of nuts and almonds
which have been found to protect from CHD.

They do not eat as many servings as the Okinawan elders, who average 7-13 servings, but sometimes
get 20 or more.

They ate that much nuts, which have high fat content, and still got only 6% of calories from fat?
Something is wrong with your figures.

Quoted message said:

Here is some data that you missed:

okinawaway.comokinawaway.comOpen ↗ Mortality Rates in Long-Lived Populations Age Adjusted Death Rates (per
100,000 people) Rank* Location Life Expectancy CHD** Cancer Stroke All Causes 1 Okinawa 81.2 18 97
35 335 2 Japan 79.9 22 106 45 364 3 Hong Kong 79.1 40 126 40 393 4 Sweden 79.0 102 108 38 435 8
Italy 78.3 55 135 49 459 10 Greece 78.1 55 109 70 449 18 USA 76.8 100 132 28 520

* Average life expectancy world rank ** Coronary Heart Disease Sources: World Health Organization
1996; Japan Ministry of Health and Welfare 1996

I notice that Crete is not included. Also, Okinawa's and Japan's CHD, cancer and all causes
mortality rates are very close each other whereas in the Seven Countries Study Crete's respective
rates were _much_ lower than Japan's. Even if Crete were included, it wouldn't describe the effect
of traditional Cretan diet, because adherence to it has loosened as I mentioned earlier.

I find Japan's stroke rates a little odd because in the Seven Countries Study Japan had highest rate
of strokes.

Quoted message said:

And a paper suggesting that we learn from more than one population or clinical trials only:

Evidence-based nutrition Dimitrios TrichopoulosMD, Pagona Lagiou, and Antonia TrichopoulouMD Asia
Pacific Journal of Clinical Nutrition Volume 9 Issue Suppl. Page S4 - October 2000 doi:10.1046/j.1440-
6047.2000.00174.x Vol. 9 Issue Suppl. blackwell-synergy.comj.1440Open ↗
6047.2000.00174.x/full/

An excerpt:

"Three studies have recently been published evaluating the role of the Mediterranean diet as
operationally defined through the eight components discussed previously. The first of these
studies was conducted in Greece, 2 the second in Denmark 33 and the third in Australia. 34 All
have shown that the Mediterranean diet has beneficial, substantial and statistically significant
effects on longevity."

Quoted message said:

Also, in their *2003* nutrition report, WHO/FAO suggests that there is "no convincing benefit" for
fat intakes beyond 20%. You can download the full report here (link is at the bottom of the page).
who.intenOpen ↗

See the Harvard and Willett's articles I mentioned in different messages.

--
Matti Narkia

Sun, 14 Dec 2003 02:11:59 +0200 in article
<[email hidden]> Matti Narkia

Quoted message said:

Sat, 13 Dec 2003 23:22:52 GMT in article <[email hidden]> "giselle"

Quoted message said:

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote.

Quoted message said:

>
>The Cretan Mediterranean diet works best in Cretans who plow fields and walk 9 miles a day.
>
Is that so?

Yes, it is so.

Unfortunately I cannot take only your word for it. In the absence of any convincing evidence I
think we just have to agree to disagree.

Clarification: it's true that Cretans used walk a lot, but you were implying that the Cretan diet
would not benefit other than Cretans. The research has shown that this is simply not true.

When you were referring to Cretans active life style were you implying that as a comparison people
of Okinawa have sedentary life style and only their diet keeps them healthy?

--
Matti Narkia

Sun, 14 Dec 2003 02:11:59 +0200 in article
<[email hidden]> Matti Narkia

Quoted message said:

Sat, 13 Dec 2003 23:22:52 GMT in article <[email hidden]> "giselle"

Quoted message said:

The problem with a lower fat diet is adherence.

You can say that again. Diet which cannot be followed is not worth much. Also, in some people low
fat diet converts large LDL particles to smaller, more atherogenic LDL particles.

See for example the study

Dreon DM, Fernstrom HA, Williams PT, Krauss RM. Reduced LDL particle size in children consuming a
very-low-fat diet is related to parental LDL-subclass patterns. Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Jun;71(6):1611-
6. PMID: 10837306 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/71/6/1611>
(full text) <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
6&dopt=Abstract>

which has been commented in the article

Extreme low-fat diets can increase heart disease risk for some <lbl.govextremedietOpen ↗
patternb.html>

--
Matti Narkia