Olestra:really safe !?

Sat, 13 Dec 2003 23:22:52 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> "giselle" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Cretan Mediterranean diet works best in Cretans who plow fields and walk 9 miles a day.

Is that so?

Yes, it is so. Such were the Mediterraneans that Keys knew. In less active types, 40% MUFA is
likely to lead to excess fat in the body.

Not according to the following studies:

Willett WC, Leibel RL. Dietary fat is not a major determinant of body fat. Am J Med. 2002 Dec 30;113
Suppl 9B:47S-59S. Review. <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
t_uids=12566139&dopt=Abstract> ( tinyurl.comwaizOpen ↗ )

"... in randomized trials lasting >or=1 year, fat consumption within the range of 18% to 40% of
energy appears to have little if any effect on body fatness. ..."

Willett WC. Dietary fat plays a major role in obesity: no. Obes Rev. 2002 May;3(2):59-68.
Review. <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
1&dopt=Abstract>

"... Diets high in fat do not account for the high prevalence of excess body fat in Western
countries; reductions in the percentage of energy from fat will have no important benefits and
could further exacerbate this problem. The emphasis on total fat reduction has been a serious
distraction in efforts to control obesity and improve health in general."

Katan MB, Grundy SM, Willett WC. [Less fat or a different fat?] Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd. 1998 Apr 18;142(16):886-
9. Review. Dutch.

"Current dietary advice with a view to avoiding cardiovascular pathology is to replace fatty
foodstuffs and those rich in saturated fat and cholesterol by food rich in complex
carbohydrates. Although substitution of carbohydrates for fat lowers the blood level of low-
density lipoprotein
(LDL) cholesterol, it also lowers the level of high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol,
thereby adversely influencing the risk profile for cardiovascular disease. Neither does a
low fat diet appear to reduce obesity, another risk factor. A modern advice based on
published research reads: obese persons should reduce their intake of saturated and trans-
fatty acids by lowering the consumption of dairy fat, meat and hardened oils (bakery
products and catering products fried in hardened fats), and in addition should consume
less products with added sugars and refined starch. Carbohydrates should be provided by
fruits, vegetables, leguminous plants and whole-wheat products. Persons of about the ideal
weight should replace saturated and trans-fatty acids in their diet by unsaturated plant
oils, and products with refined carbohydrates by fruits, vegetables and whole-wheat
products."

Willett WC. Is dietary fat a major determinant of body fat? Am J Clin Nutr. 1998 Mar;67(3 Suppl):556S-
562S. Review. <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
70&dopt=Abstract> ( tinyurl.comwamrOpen ↗ ) <http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/67/3/556S.pdf>

"The percentage of energy from dietary fat is widely believed to be an important determinant of
body fat, and several mechanisms have been proposed to account for such a relation. Comparisons
of both diets and the prevalence of obesity between affluent and poor countries have been used
to support a causal association, but these contrasts are seriously confounded by differences in
physical activity and food availability. Within areas of similar economic development, regional
intake of fat and prevalence of obesity have not been positively correlated. Randomized trials
are the preferable method to evaluate the effect of dietary fat on adiposity, and are feasible
because the number of subjects needed is not large. In short-term trials, a modest reduction in
body weight is typically seen in individuals randomly assigned to diets with a lower percentage
of energy from fat. However, compensatory mechanisms appear to operate because in trials lasting

Quoted message said:

or = 1 y, fat consumption within the range of 18-40% of energy appears to have little if any

effect on body fatness. Moreover, within the United States, a substantial decline in the
percentage of energy from fat consumed during the past two decades has corresponded with a
massive increase in obesity. Diets high in fat do not appear to be the primary cause of the high
prevalence of excess body fat in our society, and reductions in fat will not be a solution."

Lichtenstein AH. Dietary fat and cardiovascular disease risk: quantity or quality? J Womens Health
(Larchmt). 2003 Mar;12(2):109-14. Review. <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12737709&dopt=Abstract> ( tinyurl.comwaojOpen ↗ )

"When considering dietary fat quantity, there are two main factors to consider, impact on body
weight and plasma lipoprotein profiles. Data supporting a major role of dietary fat quantity in
determining body weight are weak and may be confounded by differences in energy density, dietary
fiber, and dietary protein. With respect to plasma lipoprotein profiles, relatively consistent
evidence indicates that under isoweight conditions, decreasing the total fat content of the diet
causes an increase in triglyceride and decrease in high- density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol
levels. When considering dietary fat quality, current evidence suggests that saturated fatty
acids tend to increase low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol levels, whereas monounsaturated
and polyunsaturated fatty acids tend to decrease LDL cholesterol levels. Long-chain omega-3
fatty acids, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) (20:5n-3) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) (22:6n-3), are
associated with decreased triglyceride levels in hypertriglyceridemic patients and decreased
risk of developing coronary heart disease (CHD). Dietary trans-fatty acids are associated with
increased LDL cholesterol levels. Hence, a diet low in saturated and trans- fatty acids, with
adequate amounts of monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids, especially long-chain omega-
3 fatty acids, would be recommended to reduce the risk of developing CHD. ..."

Grundy SM, Abate N, Chandalia M. Diet composition and the metabolic syndrome: what is the optimal
fat intake? Am J Med. 2002 Dec 30;113 Suppl 9B:25S-29S. Review. <ncbi.nlm.nih.goventrezOpen ↗
/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12566135&dopt=Abstract> ( tinyurl.comwaq1Open ↗ )

"... Emerging data suggest that diets higher in unsaturated fatty acids, particularly
monounsaturated fatty acids, have several advantages over high-carbohydrate intakes."

[...]

At the same time, the experience with the Mediterranean population reveals that in healthier
populations, diets relatively high in unsaturated fatty acids are well tolerated and are
associated with a low prevalence of both coronary heart disease and type 2 diabetes."

Hu FB, van Dam RM, Liu S. Diet and risk of Type II diabetes: the role of types of fat and
carbohydrate. Diabetologia. 2001 Jul;44(7):805-17. Review. <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquerOpen ↗
y.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11508264&dopt=Abstract> ( tinyurl.comwat2Open ↗ )

"Although diet and nutrition are widely believed to play an important part in the development of
Type II (non-insulin- dependent) diabetes mellitus, specific dietary factors have not been
clearly defined. Much controversy exists about the relations between the amount and types of
dietary fat and carbohydrate and the risk of diabetes. In this article, we review in detail the
current evidence regarding the associations between different types of fats and carbohydrates
and insulin resistance and Type II diabetes. Our findings indicate that a higher intake of
polyunsaturated fat and possibly long-chain n-3 fatty acids could be beneficial, whereas a
higher intake of saturated fat and trans-fat could adversely affect glucose metabolism and
insulin resistance. In dietary practice, exchanging nonhydrogenated polyunsaturated fat for
saturated and trans- fatty acids could appreciably reduce risk of Type II diabetes. In addition,
a low-glycaemic index diet with a higher amount of fiber and minimally processed whole grain
products reduces glycaemic and insulinaemic responses and lowers the risk of Type II diabetes.
Dietary recommendations to prevent Type II diabetes should focus more on the quality of fat and
carbohydrate in the diet than quantity alone, in addition to balancing total energy intake with
expenditure to avoid overweight and obesity."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps you should check the abstract

Yes, I have seen most, if not all of them, and the full papers, when they are free.

The clinical trials show that replacing saturated fat or trans fat with MUFA has some benefit in a
high risk population.

Big deal. This does not indicate that 40% fat is in any way superior to a 24% or lower.

Hu FB, Stampfer MJ, Manson JE, Rimm E, Colditz GA, Rosner BA, Hennekens CH, Willett WC. Dietary fat
intake and the risk of coronary heart disease in women. N Engl J Med. 1997 Nov 20;337(21):1491-9.
PMID: 9366580 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
ieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9366580&dopt=Abstract

suggests that replacing carbohydrates in the diet with either monounsaturated or polyunsaturated fat
is ssociated with reduced risk of CHD. A citation from the abstract:

"... RESULTS: Each increase of 5 percent of energy intake from saturated fat, as compared with
equivalent energy intake from carbohydrates, was associated with a 17 percent increase in the
risk of coronary disease (relative risk, 1.17; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.97 to 1.41;
P=0.10). As compared with equivalent energy from carbohydrates, the relative risk for a 2
percent increment in energy intake from trans unsaturated fat was 1.93 (95 percent confidence
interval, 1.43 to 2.61; P<0.001); that for a 5 percent increment in energy from monounsaturated
fat was 0.81 (95 percent confidence interval, 0.65 to 1.00; P=0.05); and that for a 5 percent
increment in energy from polyunsaturated fat was 0.62 (95 percent confidence interval, 0.46 to
0.85; P= 0.003). Total fat intake was not signficantly related to the risk of coronary disease
(for a 5 percent increase in energy from fat, the relative risk was 1.02; 95 percent confidence
interval, 0.97 to 1.07; P=0.55). ..."

See also

The Soft Science of Dietary Fat Gary Taubes Science, Vol 291, Number 5513, Mar 30, 2001 pp. 2536-
2545 Winner of the 2001 Science in Society Journalism Award
jacquigingras.comThe%20Soft%20Science%20of%20Dietary%20Fat.pdfOpen ↗ nasw.orgmemOpen ↗
maint/awards/The%20soft%20science.pdf countcarbs.comsoftscience part1.htmOpen ↗
timinvermont.comfat.htmOpen ↗

Martinez JA, Corbalan MS, Sanchez-Villegas A, Forga L, Marti A, Martinez-Gonzalez MA. Obesity risk
is associated with carbohydrate intake in women carrying the Gln27Glu beta2-adrenoceptor
polymorphism. J Nutr. 2003 Aug;133(8):2549-54. PMID: 12888635 [PubMed - in process]
nutrition.org2549Open ↗ <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.Open ↗
fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12888635&dopt=Abstract>

Scientists, Physicians Discuss Latest Discoveries for Stopping Cancer before It Starts:
aacr.org1132am.aspOpen ↗

"A low-carbohydrate diet, rather than a low-fat diet, may halt the progression of prostate
cancer. Conversely, vitamin A and related compounds present in dairy products, beef fat and fish
oil, slow the growth of prostate tumors."

More about this on the web page

Low-carbs to fight prostate cancer? nutraingredientsusa.comnews.aspOpen ↗

--
Matti Narkia

Sun, 14 Dec 2003 02:36:47 +0200 in article
<[email hidden]> Matti Narkia

Quoted message said:

Sun, 14 Dec 2003 00:16:42 GMT in article <[email hidden]> "giselle"

Quoted message said:

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:52:55 +0200 in article <[email hidden]> Matti
Narkia <[email hidden]> wrote:

> Cretans ate tons of vegetables, many of them wild herbs. They also ate lots of nuts and
> almonds which have been found to protect from CHD.

They do not eat as many servings as the Okinawan elders, who average 7-13 servings, but sometimes
get 20 or more.

They ate that much nuts, which have high fat content, and still got only 6% of calories from fat?
Something is wrong with your figures.

Quoted message said:

Here is some data that you missed:

okinawaway.comokinawaway.comOpen ↗ Mortality Rates in Long-Lived Populations Age Adjusted Death Rates (per
100,000 people) Rank* Location Life

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Rank* Location Life Expectancy CHD** Cancer Stroke All Causes 1 Okinawa 81.2 18 97 35 335 2 Japan
79.9 22 106 45 364 3 Hong Kong 79.1 40 126 40 393 4 Sweden 79.0 102 108 38 435 8 Italy 78.3 55 135
49 459 10 Greece 78.1 55 109 70 449 18 USA 76.8 100 132 28 520

* Average life expectancy world rank ** Coronary Heart Disease Sources: World Health Organization
1996; Japan Ministry of Health and Welfare 1996

I've edit your table's format a little to make it more readable for people who use fixed-pitch body
format (IMHO more usable than variable-pitch) in their news reader.

Quoted message said:

I notice that Crete is not included. Also, Okinawa's and Japan's CHD, cancer and all causes
mortality rates are very close each other whereas in the Seven Countries Study Crete's respective
rates were _much_ lower than Japan's. Even if Crete were included, it wouldn't describe the effect
of traditional Cretan diet, because adherence to it has loosened as I mentioned earlier.

I find Japan's stroke rates a little odd because in the Seven Countries Study Japan had highest
rate of strokes.

To make direct comparisons possible I've included once more the tables from the Seven Countries
Study below:

Disease Heart Cancer Other diseases Finland 972 613 2169 USA 773 384 1575 Holland 636 781 1825 Italy
462 622 1874 Yugoslavia 242 394 1712 Corfu 202 338 1317 Japan 136 623 1766 Crete 38 317 855 (Angel
Keys 1986)

7 Countries (10 years) I.H.O. (1987) Coronary Thromb. Death Rate Coronary Thromb Death Rate
Finland 466 1390 386 1210 U.S.A. 424 961 263 1061 Holland 317 1134 224 1016 Italy 200 1092 148
1066 Yugoslavia 145 1021 137 1302 Kerkyra 149 847 123 932 Japan 61 1200 53 837 Crete 9 627 7 564

--
Matti Narkia

Sun, 14 Dec 2003 00:16:42 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> "giselle" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Also, in their *2003* nutrition report, WHO/FAO suggests that there is "no convincing benefit" for
fat intakes beyond 20%. You can download the full report here (link is at the bottom of the page).
who.intenOpen ↗

Surely the panel of experts contributing to this report are not all idiots. Nor are Wilcox, Wilcox,
and Suzuki, nor is David Jenkins, who used himself as one of the subjects in his very high fiber
diet paper, and who is currently seeking contrived ways to get similar benefits from a low fat very
high fiber diet in a higher fat lower fiber diet (so as to ease compliance).

Wilcox, Wilcox, and Suzuki are the authors of the book

The Okinawa Program : How the World's Longest-Lived People Achieve Everlasting Health--And How You
Can Too <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0609807501/ref=ase_okinawaway/102-9801803-4493735>

John Granger's review of this book is kind of interesting:

"I lived in Okinawa for four years and have studied nutrition and worked as a dietary counselor
for fifteen years. With these credentials, I heartily recommend the Okinawan program but I
cannot encourage you to buy this book without sharing three big reservations and misgivings.
First, the Okinawans are almost certainly NOT the longest lived people on the earth. The authors
came to this conclusion by citing worldwide demographic studies calculating the number of people
who live to be 100 years old per 100,000 population. Okinawa is at the top of this chart - but
this does not mean they are the longest lived people on the planet. The authors nowhere mention
in their book the fact that the Okinawan centarians were in their late 40s during the Battle of
Okinawa in April, 1945. Civilian casualities in the Typhoon of Bombs and Steel are estimated at
greater than 50%. So what? The select Okinawans who survived this battle and the years of semi
starvation consequent to the Battle were naturally stronger than those who did not. That a
greater *percentage* of these people have survived to 100 reflects the harrowing of the weak
members of that generation as much as their hardihood and lifestyle. It should also be noted
that before and since the US 'restored' Okinawa to Japanese control in 1970 (the Okinawans are
racially and culturally alien to the Japanese who are in effect an occupying country as they
were in the 19th century - no suggestion of this in the book either!)there has been a tragic
'brain drain' and exodus from the archipelago; every young person of talent flees the country
keeping their population artificially low and further skewing demographics. There are some
really healthy old people on the island; any attempt to say there are a disproportionate number
of them without factoring battle casualities/natural selection and brain drain into the
calculations is deceptive at best.

Two, the authors only mention in an aside that the Okinawan program no longer exists on the
island except in the memories and lifestyles of the venerable elders there. Okinawans under 50,
the authors report, have "the highest level of obesity in Japan, the worst cardiovascular risk
factor profile, and the highest risk of premature death"
(p.49). The people most in need of learning the Okinawan program, sadly, are the Okinawans
themselves. When we lived there, my wife had to import whole grains, the heart of this
program, from the States because it was unavailable on the island except in medicinal
packages; to the Okinawans, wanting to eat *genmai* or brown rice was a sign of ill health
and only to be eaten at that time. Eating the Okinawan Program way is associated with war
time austerities and deprevation - and avoided like the plague.

My third reservation explains this generation gap. The authors spend the entire book talking in
categories that modern Okinawans understand (the sick ones) but which would be nonsense to the
old folks we are supposed to emulate. The authors speak the language of chemical nutrition and
psychospiritual categories that are concepts none of the older Okinawans use in their food or
lifestyle choices. They are a traditional, that is, theocentric culture whose every decision is
made in light of their religious/family obligations, from food choices to the clothes they wear.
Their physics or natural science (a yin yand Taoism) reflects their metaphysics. This is nowhere
mentioned in the book, though it means that this tropical way of life will work for you only if
you live in a tropical environment (most of us do nowadays because of central heating and AC),
understand food qualities rather than nutritional component quantities, and live in an Amish
like worship community - with karate dojo's! Again, as the authors admit, this way of life is
lost on the younger Okinawans who are the heaviest and sickest population on the pacific rim.

But, hey, the program the authors recommend is a good one! I have to marvel that they spent 25
years (really 6! for the data used in the book)on the study of Battle of Okinawa survivors,
however, when the program they recommend is available in Andrew Weil's books (the authors know
his integrative medicine well and have only re- packaged it here with a Okinawan face - Weil
even writes the introduction!) and Dean Ornish's writings. If you need to believe there is a Shrangri-
La Diet Program, this book is a well packaged program for you. But don't imagine that time in
Okinawa will be of any help in your recovery; Naha, Koza, and Nago are some of the nastiest
cities in Japan. If you want paradise or some vestige of the lifestyle described in this book,
go to the outer islands, of which Miyako is probably the most accessible.

For help with the food they recommend, buy Macrobiotic cookbooks and go to Macrobiotic cooking
classes. I give the book such a low rating because of the deceptiveness of its central premise
(Okinawan longevity), the misrepresentation of Okinawa as it is, and its projection of scientism
onto the traditional lifestyle and relationships of its old people as the reason for their
survival. Read Dean Ornish's Love and Survival or anything by Andrew Weil for a more honest and
applicable way to improve your health. Anything by Michio Kushi and his students will bring you
closer to Okinawan eating than this book (if you'll have to add bitter melon - definitely an
acquired taste!)."

--
Matti Narkia

Sat, 13 Dec 2003 23:22:52 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> "giselle" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

It is not a big surprise that there is no longevity population in the high fat category and that no
Mediterranean populations are known for their longevity. If you know of any exception, please cite.

In the Medline article

Renaud S Diet and cardiovascular diseases. Editorial J Nutr Health Aging. 2001;5(3):131
<http://www.healthandage.com/html/min/iananda/content/cardio_diseases.htm>

The author states that Crete has the greatest life expectancy in the Western World. The article was
written in 2001, when Japan had the greatest life expectancy in the world, but at the time the Seven
Countries study was started Crete's adherence to the traditional diet was much better than today and
then Crete had the greatest life expectancy in the world.

See also this excerpt for the pages

<http://www.kotinos.com/cretandiet.html> <http://www.e-active.co.uk/sitiaoliveoil/health.htm> :

"Recent scientific and clinical studies have shown explicitly the relation between olive oil
consumption and health. The most famous study was conducted by Dr. Ancel Benjamin Keys and it is
known as the Seven Country Study. This work showed for the first time the importance of the
Mediterranean diet on the cardiovascular and the overall health. In the study the researchers
followed groups of populations from seven countries (USA, Finland, Holland, Italy, Yugoslavia,
Japan and Greece). The representative Greek populations lived on the island of Crete and Corfu.
Dr. keys set out to prove that one's eating habits and way of life were important factors in the
incidence of cardiovascular disease.

The reports finding were nothing short of incredible.

- People from Crete have significantly lower incidence of coronary disease compared to
other groups.

- 55 times lower than the Finish
- 37 times lower than Americans
- 21 times lower than Italians
- 8 times lower than Japanese

- Life expectancy of the Cretan people was longer."

Even the news article about Okinawan diet on the page

<http://www.berkeleywellness.com/html/wl/2001/wlFeatured0901.html>

mentions the longevity of Cretans:

"A few years ago scientists were studying Cretans for clues to their longevity. The conclusion:
high consumption of olive oil, fruits, grains, and vegetables, plus lots of hard physical work,
was what kept heart disease rates low on Crete and in other parts of Greece."

From the page

<http://www.chd-taskforce.de/heart-healthy/Schmackhafte_Vorbeugung/mediterrane-ernaehrung.html>

"Traditional Mediterranean diet – for life-long good health!

In the early sixties the people of Crete, other parts of Greece and southern Italy had one of
the highest life expectancies in the world. These countries had remarkably low incidence rates
of coronary heart disease, of certain cancers and of other diseases modifiable by nutritional
habits, despite limited access to medical services.

The traditional Mediterranean diet

- meets all the criteria of a healthy yet tasty diet,

- has been shown to be associated with lower rates of
- chronic diseases and a higher life expectancy and

- is therefore similiar to the characteristics of a diet recommended for maintenance of
general health and prevention."

From the page

The Mediterranean Diet Pyramid <http://www.oldwayspt.org/pyramids/med/p_med.html> :

"This pyramid, representing a healthy, traditional Mediterranean diet, is based on the dietary
traditions of Crete, much of the rest of Greece and southern Italy circa 1960, structured in
light of current nutrition research. The selection of these regions and this time period as a
basis for the design follows from three considerations:

- Recognition that the rates of chronic diseases were among the lowest in the world and adult
life expectancy was among the highest for these populations at that time, even though
medical services were limited;

- Availability of data describing the character of food
consumption patterns of the areas at that time; and

- The convergence of the dietary patterns revealed by these data and our current understanding
of optimal nutrition based on epidemiological studies and clinical trials worldwide."

--
Matti Narkia

Sun, 14 Dec 2003 13:55:01 +0200 in article
<[email hidden]> Matti Narkia

Quoted message said:

Sat, 13 Dec 2003 23:22:52 GMT in article <[email hidden]> "giselle"

Quoted message said:

It is not a big surprise that there is no longevity population in the high fat category and
that no Mediterranean populations are known for their longevity. If you know of any exception,
please cite.

In the Medline article

Renaud S Diet and cardiovascular diseases. Editorial J Nutr Health Aging. 2001;5(3):131
<http://www.healthandage.com/html/min/iananda/content/cardio_diseases.htm>

The author states that Crete has the greatest life expectancy in the Western World. The article was
written in 2001, when Japan had the greatest life expectancy in the world, but at the time the
Seven Countries study was started Crete's adherence to the traditional diet was much better than
today and then Crete had the greatest life expectancy in the world.

See also this excerpt for the pages

<http://www.kotinos.com/cretandiet.html> <http://www.e-active.co.uk/sitiaoliveoil/health.htm> :

"Recent scientific and clinical studies have shown explicitly the relation between olive oil
consumption and health. The most famous study was conducted by Dr. Ancel Benjamin Keys and it
is known as the Seven Country Study. This work showed for the first time the importance of the
Mediterranean diet on the cardiovascular and the overall health. In the study the researchers
followed groups of populations from seven countries (USA, Finland, Holland, Italy, Yugoslavia,
Japan and Greece). The representative Greek populations lived on the island of Crete and Corfu.
Dr. keys set out to prove that one's eating habits and way of life were important factors in
the incidence of cardiovascular disease.

The reports finding were nothing short of incredible.

- People from Crete have significantly lower incidence of coronary disease compared to other
groups.

- 55 times lower than the Finish
- 37 times lower than Americans
- 21 times lower than Italians
- 8 times lower than Japanese

- Life expectancy of the Cretan people was longer."

Even the news article about Okinawan diet on the page

<http://www.berkeleywellness.com/html/wl/2001/wlFeatured0901.html>

mentions the longevity of Cretans:

"A few years ago scientists were studying Cretans for clues to their longevity. The conclusion:
high consumption of olive oil, fruits, grains, and vegetables, plus lots of hard physical work,
was what kept heart disease rates low on Crete and in other parts of Greece."

From the page

<http://www.chd-taskforce.de/heart-healthy/Schmackhafte_Vorbeugung/mediterrane-ernaehrung.html>

"Traditional Mediterranean diet – for life-long good health!

In the early sixties the people of Crete, other parts of Greece and southern Italy had one of
the highest life expectancies in the world. These countries had remarkably low incidence rates
of coronary heart disease, of certain cancers and of other diseases modifiable by nutritional
habits, despite limited access to medical services.

The traditional Mediterranean diet

- meets all the criteria of a healthy yet tasty diet,

- has been shown to be associated with lower rates of
- chronic diseases and a higher life expectancy and

- is therefore similiar to the characteristics of a diet recommended for maintenance of
general health and prevention."

From the page

The Mediterranean Diet Pyramid <http://www.oldwayspt.org/pyramids/med/p_med.html> :

"This pyramid, representing a healthy, traditional Mediterranean diet, is based on the dietary
traditions of Crete, much of the rest of Greece and southern Italy circa 1960, structured in
light of current nutrition research. The selection of these regions and this time period as a
basis for the design follows from three considerations:

- Recognition that the rates of chronic diseases were among the lowest in the world and adult
life expectancy was among the highest for these populations at that time, even though
medical services were limited;

- Availability of data describing the character of food
consumption patterns of the areas at that time; and

- The convergence of the dietary patterns revealed by these data and our current
understanding of optimal nutrition based on epidemiological studies and clinical trials
worldwide."

See also

Trichopoulou A, Vasilopoulou E. Mediterranean diet and longevity. Br J Nutr. 2000 Dec;84 Suppl 2:S205-
9. Review. <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
&dopt=Abstract>

Trichogenous A, Costacou T, Bamia C, Trichopoulos D. Adherence to a Mediterranean diet and survival
in a Greek population. N Engl J Med. 2003 Jun 26;348(26):2599-608. PMID: 12826634 [PubMed - indexed
for MEDLINE] <http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/348/26/2599>

This study has been ommented in

Close Adherence to a Traditional Mediterranean Diet Promotes Longevity
<http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/press/releases/press06252003.html>

Mediterranean diet 'extends life' <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3173077.stm>

and

Mediterranean Diet: More Than Olive Oil 'Divine Mix' Prevents Death From Cancer, Heart Disease
<http://my.webmd.com/content/article/67/80070.htm>

--
Matti Narkia

Sun, 14 Dec 2003 00:16:42 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> "giselle" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:52:55 +0200 in article <[email hidden]> Matti

Narkia said:

Cretans ate tons of vegetables, many of them wild herbs. They also ate lots of nuts and almonds
which have been found to protect from CHD.

They do not eat as many servings as the Okinawan elders, who average 7-13 servings, but sometimes
get 20 or more.

Quoted message said:

Below some references about health effects of nuts:

I've read all of those, too.

Nuts should be not excluded in a healthy diet. They can still be incorporated in a diet that
consists of significantly less than 30% fat, and have been, in many of the Jenkins clinical trials.

Here is some data that you missed:

okinawaway.comokinawaway.comOpen ↗ Mortality Rates in Long-Lived Populations Age Adjusted Death Rates (per
100,000 people) Rank* Location Life Expectancy CHD** Cancer Stroke All Causes 1 Okinawa 81.2 18 97
35 335 2 Japan 79.9 22 106 45 364 3 Hong Kong 79.1 40 126 40 393 4 Sweden 79.0 102 108 38 435 8
Italy 78.3 55 135 49 459 10 Greece 78.1 55 109 70 449 18 USA 76.8 100 132 28 520

* Average life expectancy world rank ** Coronary Heart Disease Sources: World Health Organization
1996; Japan Ministry of Health and Welfare 1996

It seems that Japan has since then lost its first place. The current
(2003) leader is Andorra, 83.49 years.

Life expectancy at birth(years) 2003 Data source: 2003 CIA World Factbook
photius.comlife expectancy at birth 0.htmlOpen ↗

1 Andorra 83.49
2 Macau 81.87
3 San Marino 81.43
4 Japan 80.93
5 Singapore 80.42
6 Australia 80.13
7 Guernsey 80.04
8 Switzerland 79.99
9 Sweden 79.97
10 Hong Kong 79.93

Country Statistics at a Glance factmonster.comA0762380.htmlOpen ↗

HIGHEST LIFE EXPECTANCY (in years): 2002
2004. Andorra 83.5
2005. San Marino 81.4
2006. Japan 80.9
2007. Singapore 80.4
2008. Australia 80.1
2009. Sweden 80.0 Switzerland 80.0
2010. Canada 79.8 Iceland 79.8
2011.Italy 79.4
(U.S. Census Bureau, International Database)

Life expectancy at birth - Male, Female Data source: 1999 CIA World Factbook
photius.comlife expectancy mf 0.htmlOpen ↗

1 Andorra 80.55, 86.55
2 Macau 78.79, 85.13
3 San Marino 77.59, 85.35
4 Australia 77.22, 83.23
5 Japan 77.02, 83.35
6 Iceland 76.85, 81.19
7 Israel 76.71, 80.61
8 Sweden 76.61, 82.11
9 Martinique 76.47, 82.13
10 Hong Kong 76.15, 81.85
11 Canada 76.12, 82.79
12 Jersey 76.08, 81.87
13 Greece 75.87, 81.18
14 Switzerland 75.83, 82.32
15 Singapore 75.79, 82.14

--
Matti Narkia

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

" plus lots of hard physical work,

which no longer applies

Quoted message said:

In the early sixties the people of Crete,

which no longer applies.

As I stated--they've kept the high MUFA intake, and decreased their activity. The stellar statistics
no longer apply to their population.

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Willett WC, Leibel RL. Dietary fat is not a major determinant of body fat. Am J Med. 2002 Dec
30;113 Suppl 9B:47S-59S. Review. <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
ubMed&list_uids=12566139&dopt=Abstract> ( tinyurl.comwaizOpen ↗ )

"... in randomized trials lasting >or=1 year, fat consumption within the range of 18% to 40%
of energy appears to have little if any effect on body fatness. ..."

Most of that range--18-30%-- is lower in fat.

Quoted message said:

Katan MB, Grundy SM, Willett WC. [Less fat or a different fat?] Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd. 1998 Apr
18;142(16):886-9. Review. Dutch.

"Current dietary advice with a view to avoiding cardiovascular pathology is to replace fatty
foodstuffs and those rich in saturated fat and cholesterol by food rich in complex
carbohydrates. Although substitution of carbohydrates for fat lowers the blood level of low-
density lipoprotein
(LDL) cholesterol, it also lowers the level of high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol,
thereby adversely influencing the risk profile for cardiovascular disease.

Largely irrelevant when total is less than 150-160 mg/dl.

Quoted message said:

Neither does a low fat diet appear to reduce obesity, another risk factor.

Right.That's why all those Chinese peasants are obese.

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

The author states that Crete has the greatest life expectancy in the Western World. The article
was written in 2001, when Japan had the greatest life expectancy in the world, but at the time the
Seven Countries study was started Crete's adherence to the traditional diet was much better than
today and then Crete had the greatest life expectancy in the world.

It applies to a population at time in the past, when exercise was a major factor.

Quoted message said:

- People from Crete have significantly lower incidence of coronary disease compared to other
groups.

Not anymore. Take away the strenuous activity and the edge disappears.

Once upon a time, our fellow Matti Narkia rambled on about "Re: Diets of Crete and Okinawa (was: Re:
Olestra:really safe !?)." Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

Quoted message said:

The author states that Crete has the greatest life expectancy in the Western World. The article was
written in 2001, when Japan had the greatest life expectancy in the world, but at the time the
Seven Countries study was started Crete's adherence to the traditional diet was much better

Here is a question for an expert on the Seven Countries study.

Why did the Bulgarian cohort of university professors actually demonstrate the longest longevity?

And, why has this fact been generally ignored in favor of Crete? The actual data, shows that this
small group of Bulgarian university professors had a small edge in longevity over Crete.

My assessment is that their longevity can only be explained by the fact that they did not smoke.
What is your opinion on this?

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately I cannot take only your word for it. In the absence of any convincing evidence I
think we just have to agree to disagree.

Most of the studies you cited, which I had previously read, by the way, emphasized the strenuous
exercise of the Cretans of the 1950s. Perhaps you might benefit from reading them again.

Quoted message said:

That's true also for some of the Cretans as I mentioned. Still, we were discussing the
_traditional_ Cretan diet of 50s, 60s and earlier for which your comment is irrelevant.

The comment is most relevant--you must have overlooked the relevant mentions in your own citations.

Quoted message said:

Evidence? Even if true, it's irrelevant, see above.

No, it isn't. Westerners who say that they adhere to lower fat diets are usually cheating.

Quoted message said:

So? You implied that Cretan traditional diet is only good for Cretans. Research shows otherwise.

Research shows that the tremendous edge that they had applied only at a time when they were
exercising strenuously.

In other populations, there is some benefit from replacing trans and saturated fats with MUFA. There
are other ways to achieve a more favorable lipid mix--by keeping the melting point below 20C--it is
not necessary to achieve an intake above 30%, or even 20%. A diet at the lower end would allow for
more room for fruits, vegetables, and soluble fibers, which would in turn promote the greatest
improvements in lipid profiles, and colonic health, stroke incidence (which is confounded by
hypertension, excessive sodium intake, and inadequate fruit and vegetable intake) most types of
cancers, and overall mortality.

Quoted message said:

Risk factors (like lipid profiles) are just that. The real tests are morbidity and mortality
rates, which were astonishing low for Crete in the Seven Countries Study.

WHO/FAO has a different criterion for evaluating convincing evidence. They look at results from more
than one study, for example.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The problem with a lower fat diet is adherence.

You can say that again. Diet which cannot be followed is not worth much. Also, in some people low
fat diet converts large LDL particles to smaller, more atherogenic LDL particles.

If they are eating junk carbohydrates instead. If they are eating fruits and vegetables, this
doesn't happen.

Quoted message said:

Not necessarily. Extra virgin olive oil has high content of phenolic antioxidants.

These phenolics have a higher calorie costs and are no more powerful than phenolics in lower-fat
vegetables.

Quoted message said:

Also, research suggests that replacing fat with
carbohydrates is not necessarily a good idea.

Some research suggests that maintaining junk carbohydrate while limiting fat is not a good idea for
some people. NO research suggests that limiting fat and maintaining high fruit, vegetable, legume,
and whole grain intake is not a good idea.

Quoted message said:

How do you know what is excess?

The body's EFA requirement is around 6%. A bit more might be useful for absorption of fat soluble
micronutrients. Not that I am suggesting anyone adhere to a very low fat diet, except for those who
wish to reverse blockages without surgery. Normals can do fine in the low 20s.

Quoted message said:

Crete has been mentioned several times already. Cretan CHD, cancer and overall mortality rates
were lower than in any other country in the Seven Countries Study, including Japan.

When they exercised.

Quoted message said:

Any diet which cannot be followed is idiotic.

This applies to most weight loss diets, as compliance is usually dismal--at about a 95% failure rate
in the long term.

Quoted message said:

Besides, very-low-fat diets have some negative health effects, see the references and links
provided earlier.

I made no mention of very low fat interventions until this post, and only in the context of
their ability to reduce percent diameter stenosis, which no other dietary intervention has been
shown to do.

Quoted message said:

Perhaps you could first mention why I should be interested. Is China known for longevity?

Chinese peasants die of diseases of poverty, not diseases of affluence.

Quoted message said:

You seem to have some kind of agenda concerning low fat diets, which may prevent you from making
objective observations about traditional Cretan diet. See the references I've provided in various
messages.

No, I have an agenda for correcting people who abuse the term "idiotic," because it makes them look
like idiots.

Sun, 14 Dec 2003 14:26:15 +0200 in article
<[email hidden]> Matti Narkia

Quoted message said:

Sun, 14 Dec 2003 00:16:42 GMT in article <[email hidden]> "giselle"

Quoted message said:

Here is some data that you missed:

okinawaway.comokinawaway.comOpen ↗ Mortality Rates in Long-Lived Populations Age Adjusted Death Rates (per
100,000 people) Rank* Location Life Expectancy CHD** Cancer Stroke All Causes 1 Okinawa 81.2 18 97
35 335 2 Japan 79.9 22 106 45 364 3 Hong Kong 79.1 40 126 40 393 4 Sweden 79.0 102 108 38 435 8
Italy 78.3 55 135 49 459 10 Greece 78.1 55 109 70 449 18 USA 76.8 100 132 28 520

* Average life expectancy world rank ** Coronary Heart Disease Sources: World Health Organization
1996; Japan Ministry of Health and Welfare 1996

It seems that Japan has since then lost its first place. The current
(2003) leader is Andorra, 83.49 years.

Moreover, it also seems that Okinawa no longer has the greatest longevity in Japan. See John de
Hoog's post in this ng 2003-07-04:
<http://groups.google.fi/groups?selm=20030704050359.434%24yR%40news.newsreader.com>

"Okinawa has long been looked to as a model for long, healthy life. Japan as a whole has the
world's best longevity record, and Okinawa ranked at the top of all prefectures -- until now.

Today, Okinawa has fallen to 26th in Japan. The number one prefecture is Nagano (where the
Winter Olympics were held in 1998).

So what happened to Okinawa? Observers blame a drift away from the traditional diet, influenced
by Western foods (Okinawa hosts US military bases), and by the increase in working mothers, who
no longer have the time to prepare the traditional dishes or learn how to prepare them properly.
(One girl who still likes goya champon -- the only one in her class -- says she likes it the way
her grandmother cooks it better than her mother's version.)

Of course the traditional Okinawa diet itself is still a good one. The drop in longevity as
people move away from it is evidence of that."

--
Matti Narkia

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote

So where are all the Cretan centenarians?

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Mediterranean Diet: More Than Olive Oil 'Divine Mix' Prevents Death From Cancer, Heart Disease
<http://my.webmd.com/content/article/67/80070.htm>

Right--and if you take away the excess MUFA you get something like the diet of the Okinawan elders,
which is associated with much lower rates of CHD, cancers, mortality of all causes, etc..

Sun, 14 Dec 2003 12:52:22 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> "giselle" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

" plus lots of hard physical work,

which no longer applies

Irrelevant, the issue was the _traditional_ Cretan diet.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In the early sixties the people of Crete,

which no longer applies.

Irrelevant, the issue was the _traditional_ Cretan diet. <

Quoted message said:

As I stated--they've kept the high MUFA intake, and decreased their activity. The stellar
statistics no longer apply to their population.

The stellar statistics no longer apply to Okinawa either, which has fallen to the 26th in the
longevity statistics of Japan. The number one prefecture now is Nagano. Japan has also lost its
first place in the world statistics.

--
Matti Narkia

Sun, 14 Dec 2003 12:57:34 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> "giselle" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Willett WC, Leibel RL. Dietary fat is not a major determinant of body fat. Am J Med. 2002 Dec
30;113 Suppl 9B:47S-59S. Review. <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
PubMed&list_uids=12566139&dopt=Abstract> ( tinyurl.comwaizOpen ↗ )

"... in randomized trials lasting >or=1 year, fat consumption within the range of 18% to 40%
of energy appears to have little if any effect on body fatness. ..."

Most of that range--18-30%-- is lower in fat.

So? What's your point? According to Willett 40% is no worse than 18-30%.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Katan MB, Grundy SM, Willett WC. [Less fat or a different fat?] Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd. 1998 Apr
18;142(16):886-9. Review. Dutch.

"Current dietary advice with a view to avoiding cardiovascular pathology is to replace fatty
foodstuffs and those rich in saturated fat and cholesterol by food rich in complex
carbohydrates. Although substitution of carbohydrates for fat lowers the blood level of low-
density lipoprotein
(LDL) cholesterol, it also lowers the level of high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol,
thereby adversely influencing the risk profile for cardiovascular disease.

Largely irrelevant when total is less than 150-160 mg/dl.

Ah, but if it is higher than as it quite often is?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Neither does a low fat diet appear to reduce obesity, another risk factor.

Right.That's why all those Chinese peasants are obese.

Have you heard of calories? The studies, which I've presented, show that in isocaloric diets (diets
with the same amount of calories, the percentage of calories gotten from fat does not have any
effect on body fatness. If Chinese peasants are slim, it is because of their low calorie (energy)
intake, not because of their low fat intake.

--
Matti Narkia

Sun, 14 Dec 2003 13:00:39 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> "giselle" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

The author states that Crete has the greatest life expectancy in the Western World. The article
was written in 2001, when Japan had the greatest life expectancy in the world, but at the time
the Seven Countries study was started Crete's adherence to the traditional diet was much better
than today and then Crete had the greatest life expectancy in the world.

It applies to a population at time in the past, when exercise was a major factor.

The numerous studies I've presented show that it applies to other populations as well.
Once more, see

Kouris-Blazos A, Gnardellis C, Wahlqvist ML, Trichopoulos D, Lukito W, Trichopoulou A. Are the
advantages of the Mediterranean diet transferable to other populations? A cohort study in Melbourne,
Australia. Br J Nutr. 1999 Jul;82(1):57-61. PMID: 10655957 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <w-w-Open ↗
ww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10655957&dopt=Abstract>

Singh RB, Dubnov G, Niaz MA, Ghosh S, Singh R, Rastogi SS, Manor O, Pella D, Berry EM. Effect of an
Indo-Mediterranean diet on progression of coronary artery disease in high risk patients (Indo-
Mediterranean Diet Heart Study): a randomised single-blind trial. Lancet. 2002 Nov 9;360(9344):1455-
61 <http://www.thelancet.com/journal/vol360/iss9344/full/llan.360.9344.original_research.23027.1>

And also the following Lyon Diet Heart Study related studies and articles:

de Lorgeril M, Renaud S, Mamelle N, Salen P, Martin JL, Monjaud I, Guidollet J, Touboul P, Delaye J.
Mediterranean alpha-linolenic acid-rich diet in secondary prevention of coronary heart disease.
Lancet. 1994 Jun 11;343(8911):1454-9. Erratum in: Lancet 1995 Mar 18;345(8951):738. PMID: 7911176
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
d&list_uids=7911176&dopt=Abstract>

Renaud S, de Lorgeril M, Delaye J, Guidollet J, Jacquard F, Mamelle N, Martin JL, Monjaud I, Salen
P, Toubol P. Cretan Mediterranean diet for prevention of coronary heart disease. Am J Clin Nutr.
1995 Jun;61(6 Suppl):1360S-1367S. PMID: 7754988 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <ncbi.nlm-ncbi.nlm-Open ↗
.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7754988&dopt=Abstract>

De Lorgeril M, Salen P, Martin JL, Mamelle N, Monjaud I, Touboul P, Delaye J. Effect of a
mediterranean type of diet on the rate of cardiovascular complications in patients with coronary
artery disease. Insights into the cardioprotective effect of certain nutriments. J Am Coll Cardiol.
1996 Nov 1;28(5):1103-8. <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
_uids=8890801&dopt=Abstract>

de Lorgeril M, Salen P, Martin JL, Monjaud I, Boucher P, Mamelle N. Mediterranean dietary pattern in
a randomized trial: prolonged survival and possible reduced cancer rate. Arch Intern Med. 1998 Jun
8;158(11):1181-7. <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
625397&dopt=Abstract>

de Lorgeril M, Salen P, Martin J-L, Monjaud I, Delaye J, Mamelle N: Mediterranean diet, traditional
risk factors and the rate of cardiovascular complications after myocardial infarction. Final report
of the Lyon Diet Heart Study. Circulation 1999, February 16, 99:779-785
<http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/99/6/779>

Leaf A. Dietary prevention of coronary heart disease: the Lyon Diet Heart Study. Circulation. 1999
Feb 16;99(6):733-5. <http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/99/6/733>

Serge Renaud: from French paradox to Cretan miracle. Lancet 2000; 355: 48 - 52.
<http://www.thelancet.com/journal/vol355/iss9197/full/llan.355.9197.news.2419.1>

Kris-Etherton P, Eckel RH, Howard BV, St Jeor S, Bazzarre TL; Nutrition Committee Population Science
Committee and Clinical Science Committee of the American Heart Association. AHA Science Advisory:
Lyon Diet Heart Study. Benefits of a Mediterranean-style, National Cholesterol Education
Program/American Heart Association Step I Dietary Pattern on Cardiovascular Disease. Circulation.
2001 Apr 3;103(13):1823-5. <http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/103/13/1823>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- People from Crete have significantly lower incidence of coronary disease compared to other
groups.

Not anymore. Take away the strenuous activity and the edge disappears.

Not so. See for example

Trichogenous A, Costacou T, Bamia C, Trichopoulos D. Adherence to a Mediterranean diet and survival
in a Greek population. N Engl J Med. 2003 Jun 26;348(26):2599-608. PMID: 12826634 [PubMed - indexed
for MEDLINE] <http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/348/26/2599>

where adjustment for the physical-activity was made (as in most of the other studies well). See also
the studies mentioned above.

--
Matti Narkia

Sun, 14 Dec 2003 13:02:43 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> "giselle" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Mediterranean Diet: More Than Olive Oil 'Divine Mix' Prevents Death From Cancer, Heart Disease
<http://my.webmd.com/content/article/67/80070.htm>

Right--and if you take away the excess MUFA you get something like the diet of the Okinawan elders,
which is associated with much lower rates of CHD, cancers, mortality of all causes, etc..

It has not been shown. As I pointed out in another message, in your 1996 chart there was not much
difference in CHD, cancer and all causes mortality rates between Okinawa and the rest of Japan,
whereas in the Seven Countries Study and other statistics of that time there was a huge difference
in these rates between Crete and Japan for the advantage of Crete.

--
Matti Narkia

Sun, 14 Dec 2003 13:25:08 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> "giselle" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately I cannot take only your word for it. In the absence of any convincing evidence I
think we just have to agree to disagree.

Most of the studies you cited, which I had previously read, by the way, emphasized the strenuous
exercise of the Cretans of the 1950s. Perhaps you might benefit from reading them again.

Emphasized? Strenuous?. Cretans used _walk_ about 13 km a day as a part of their daily activities.
Walking can hardly be described as strenuous exercise. Exercise, even walking is good, but the
studies I've presented show that the benefits of the diet are independent of the physical activity
level (although the combined effect could be additive or even synergistic)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's true also for some of the Cretans as I mentioned. Still, we were discussing the
_traditional_ Cretan diet of 50s, 60s and earlier for which your comment is irrelevant.

The comment is most relevant--you must have overlooked the relevant mentions in your own citations.

Your comments about today's Cretan diet which differs from the traditional diet are not relevant for
traditional diet.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Evidence? Even if true, it's irrelevant, see above.

No, it isn't. Westerners who say that they adhere to lower fat diets are usually cheating.

Quoted message said:

So? You implied that Cretan traditional diet is only good for Cretans. Research shows otherwise.

Research shows that the tremendous edge that they had applied only at a time when they were
exercising strenuously.

Name some of that research. References?

Quoted message said:

In other populations, there is some benefit from replacing trans and saturated fats with MUFA.
There are other ways to achieve a more favorable lipid mix--by keeping the melting point below 20C--
it is not necessary to achieve an intake above 30%, or even 20%.

Prove that. References?

Quoted message said:

A diet at the lower end would allow for more room for fruits, vegetables, and soluble fibers, which
would in turn promote the greatest improvements in lipid profiles, and colonic health, stroke
incidence (which is confounded by hypertension, excessive sodium intake, and inadequate fruit and
vegetable intake) most types of cancers, and overall mortality.

Prove that. Also the low-fat diets (below 25-30%) are not so easy to compose and there is often an
adherence problem, which reduces any potential benefits, real or imagined.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Risk factors (like lipid profiles) are just that. The real tests are morbidity and mortality
rates, which were astonishing low for Crete in the Seven Countries Study.

WHO/FAO has a different criterion for evaluating convincing evidence. They look at results from
more than one study, for example.

So? What's your point?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The problem with a lower fat diet is adherence.

You can say that again. Diet which cannot be followed is not worth much. Also, in some people low
fat diet converts large LDL particles to smaller, more atherogenic LDL particles.

If they are eating junk carbohydrates instead. If they are eating fruits and vegetables, this
doesn't happen.

So you say. Can prove it?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not necessarily. Extra virgin olive oil has high content of phenolic antioxidants.

These phenolics have a higher calorie costs and are no more powerful than phenolics in lower-fat
vegetables.

Says who? You? Where is the evidence?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, research suggests that replacing fat with
carbohydrates is not necessarily a good idea.

Some research suggests that maintaining junk carbohydrate while limiting fat is not a good idea for
some people. NO research suggests that limiting fat and maintaining high fruit, vegetable, legume,
and whole grain intake is not a good idea.

Once again I have to cite the study

Dreon DM, Fernstrom HA, Williams PT, Krauss RM. Reduced LDL particle size in children consuming a
very-low-fat diet is related to parental LDL-subclass patterns. Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Jun;71(6):1611-
6. PMID: 10837306 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/71/6/1611>
(full text) <ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
6&dopt=Abstract>

which has been commented in the article

Extreme low-fat diets can increase heart disease risk for some <lbl.govextremedietOpen ↗
patternb.html>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How do you know what is excess?

The body's EFA requirement is around 6%. A bit more might be useful for absorption of fat soluble
micronutrients. Not that I am suggesting anyone adhere to a very low fat diet, except for those who
wish to reverse blockages without surgery. Normals can do fine in the low 20s.

MUFAs are not EFAs. 20% is considered a very-low-fat-diet by many.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Crete has been mentioned several times already. Cretan CHD, cancer and overall mortality rates
were lower than in any other country in the Seven Countries Study, including Japan.

When they exercised.

When they walked. They don't walk in other countries?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps you could first mention why I should be interested. Is China known for longevity?

Chinese peasants die of diseases of poverty, not diseases of affluence.

So they die before they have a chance to get "diseases of affluence".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You seem to have some kind of agenda concerning low fat diets, which may prevent you from making
objective observations about traditional Cretan diet. See the references I've provided in various
messages.

No, I have an agenda for correcting people who abuse the term "idiotic," because it makes them look
like idiots.

Your agenda shows in your refusal to accept overwhelming evidence published in peer-
reviewed journals.

--
Matti Narkia

Sun, 14 Dec 2003 13:00:39 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> "giselle" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

- People from Crete have significantly lower incidence of coronary disease compared to other
groups.

Not anymore. Take away the strenuous activity and the edge disappears.

Even the article presented and apparently endorsed by you,

Evidence-based nutrition Dimitrios TrichopoulosMD, Pagona Lagiou, and Antonia TrichopoulouMD Asia
Pacific Journal of Clinical Nutrition Volume 9 Issue Suppl. Page S4 - October 2000 doi:10.1046/j.1440-
6047.2000.00174.x>Vol. 9 Issue Suppl. blackwell-synergy.comj.1440Open ↗
6047.2000.00174.x/full/

refutes your above comment. A couple of excerpts:

"Overall, the traditional Mediterranean diet may be thought of as having eight components: (i) a
high monounsaturated to saturated fat ratio; (ii) moderate ethanol consumption; (iii) high
consumption of legumes; (iv) high consumption of cereals (including bread); (v) high consumption
of fruits; (vi) high consumption of vegetables; (vii) low consumption of meat and meat products;
and (viii) moderate consumption of milk and dairy products. 31

[...]

Three studies have recently been published evaluating the role of the Mediterranean diet as
operationally defined through the eight components discussed previously. The first of these
studies was conducted in Greece, 2 the second in Denmark 33 and the third in Australia. 34 All
have shown that the Mediterranean diet has beneficial, substantial and statistically significant
effects on longevity."

Didn't you read the article before you posted it's reference?

--
Matti Narkia