Active 10 GPS

In article <[email hidden]>,
"[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any experience of the Active 10 GPS?
More details here http://satmap.com/

I very much doubt that there are many folk about with any experience of
it. It has just been released.

Quoted message said:

I want it for walking, as an alternative to OS maps.

Can you imagine how poor it would be if when you used an OS map all you
could see at any one time was a section two inches wide by three inches
high? Until the advent of displays that are lightweight, easily readable
in all conditions outdoors, of at least A5 size, flexible and with very
frugal power requirements I very much doubt that many folk familiar with
using an OS map will find such devices satisfactory. And I say that from
my position as a dedicated techno-junky with several GPS units!

If you really want one I would strongly suggest you pop in to one of the
stockists and see it in the flesh before parting with your wad of cash.

http://satmap.com/wheretobuy.php

--

Dominic Sexton

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:01:24 +0100, in uk.rec.walking, Dominic Sexton

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any experience of the Active 10 GPS?
More details here http://satmap.com/

I very much doubt that there are many folk about with any experience of
it. It has just been released.

There are a few. They like it. See the pocketgpsworld forum for instance.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I want it for walking, as an alternative to OS maps.

Can you imagine how poor it would be if when you used an OS map all you
could see at any one time was a section two inches wide by three inches
high? Until the advent of displays that are lightweight, easily readable
in all conditions outdoors, of at least A5 size, flexible and with very
frugal power requirements I very much doubt that many folk familiar with
using an OS map will find such devices satisfactory. And I say that from
my position as a dedicated techno-junky with several GPS units!

If you really want one I would strongly suggest you pop in to one of the
stockists and see it in the flesh before parting with your wad of cash.

http://satmap.com/wheretobuy.php

--
Doug Weller --
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Amun - co-owner/co-moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amun/

Dominic Sexton said:

Can you imagine how poor it would be if when you used an OS map all
you could see at any one time was a section two inches wide by three
inches high?

Great for detail, terrible for an overview.

Quoted message said:

Until the advent of displays that are lightweight,
easily readable in all conditions outdoors,

My 60CS is easily readable in all conditions.

Quoted message said:

of at least A5 size,

Erm...

Quoted message said:

flexible and with very frugal power requirements

The 60CS is very good on power.

Quoted message said:

I very much doubt
that many folk familiar with using an OS map will find such devices
satisfactory. And I say that from my position as a dedicated
techno-junky with several GPS units!

My position, using just roads and free contours, is that in practice, you
really don't need that much detail for effective navigation. I rarely ever
need to get the map out these days.

Paul
--
Latest Posts:
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/pic-of-the-day/pwlldu-head-sunset/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/pic-of-the-day/afon-pyrddin-waterfalls/

In article <[email hidden]>, Doug Weller
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:01:24 +0100, in uk.rec.walking, Dominic Sexton

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any experience of the Active 10 GPS?
More details here http://satmap.com/

I very much doubt that there are many folk about with any experience of
it. It has just been released.

There are a few. They like it. See the pocketgpsworld forum for instance.

Before replying I checked at PocketGPS world for a review or user posts
so that I could have pointed them out to the OP if available. I found no
review and the only users that said they had received theirs said it
felt very nice but they hadn't used it yet. Got any pointers to any user
reviews on other sites?

Interestingly even the manufacturer's site says it will be in stock on
11 Nov so it seems a bit hard to come by at the moment:

http://www.satmap.com/ukstore/product_info.php?products_id=2753

From what I recall they have had a history of delivery dates slipping.
It was first said to be available from June this year.

It may eventually turn out to be a decent product but from my reading of
their site it has been overdone by the marketing consultants. I would be
very wary of investing in a newly released product from an established
manufacturer like Garmin never mind the first product from a new start
up company that announced delivery dates of about two months and then
let them slip by four months or more.

--

Dominic Sexton

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Dominic Sexton said:

Can you imagine how poor it would be if when you used an OS map all
you could see at any one time was a section two inches wide by three
inches high?

Great for detail, terrible for an overview.

Great for detail where you are or where you pan to. No matter how good
the panning and zooming they will not beat the Mk1 eyeball scanning
across a map of a suitable size.

The Satmap site boasts that:
"You can zoom into all our maps, so for example a 1:25k map can be
enlarged to show a scale of 1:4k, giving you a very accurate map
indeed."

Which, politely, is a complete farce. The fact that it will display the
position on a zoomed and pixelated or blurred representation of the
1:25k map in no way makes that map more accurate.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Until the advent of displays that are lightweight,
easily readable in all conditions outdoors,

My 60CS is easily readable in all conditions.

Yes but many displays are not. Garmin are quite good in the outdoors
market.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of at least A5 size,

Erm...

To allow the eyeball to do what it does far better than the
techno-widgets.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

flexible and with very frugal power requirements

The 60CS is very good on power.

But it has a small screen. The Satmap allegedly does 50 hours on a set
of 3 AAs so has a similar consumption to your 60CS.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I very much doubt
that many folk familiar with using an OS map will find such devices
satisfactory. And I say that from my position as a dedicated
techno-junky with several GPS units!

My position, using just roads and free contours, is that in practice, you
really don't need that much detail for effective navigation. I rarely ever
need to get the map out these days.

If I am going where I planned I rarely need to refer to the map. I
rarely refer to the GPS I'm logging my trip with either.

Anybody hoping to spend 300 quid and then more money for maps to replace
paper OS maps will most probably be disappointed but for the toy value
and the fact that they will not admit the drawbacks / will proudly
proclaim the positive features in order to justify their outlay.

As they say a fool and his money are easily parted. Marketing without
substance, as used extensively by satmap, is merely away to increase the
number of fools.

--

Dominic Sexton

On 25 Oct, 20:44, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any experience of the Active 10 GPS?
More details herehttp://satmap.com/

I want it for walking, as an alternative to OS maps.

GPS isn't an alternative to OS maps. Like the compass, it is an
instrument designed to make it easier to use maps and navigate in poor
visibility. If you go into mountains with GPS and no maps you are
asking for trouble.

ancient brit

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 23:15:40 +0100, in uk.rec.walking, Dominic Sexton

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Doug Weller
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:01:24 +0100, in uk.rec.walking, Dominic Sexton

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> writes
>Does anyone have any experience of the Active 10 GPS?
>More details here http://satmap.com/

I very much doubt that there are many folk about with any experience of
it. It has just been released.

There are a few. They like it. See the pocketgpsworld forum for instance.

Before replying I checked at PocketGPS world for a review or user posts
so that I could have pointed them out to the OP if available. I found no
review and the only users that said they had received theirs said it
felt very nice but they hadn't used it yet. Got any pointers to any user
reviews on other sites?

Interestingly even the manufacturer's site says it will be in stock on
11 Nov so it seems a bit hard to come by at the moment:

http://www.satmap.com/ukstore/product_info.php?products_id=2753

In stock in their store, they appear to have released all the current
stock to other dealers.

Quoted message said:

From what I recall they have had a history of delivery dates slipping.
It was first said to be available from June this year.

It may eventually turn out to be a decent product but from my reading of
their site it has been overdone by the marketing consultants. I would be
very wary of investing in a newly released product from an established
manufacturer like Garmin never mind the first product from a new start
up company that announced delivery dates of about two months and then
let them slip by four months or more.

--
Doug Weller --
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Amun - co-owner/co-moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amun/

On Oct 25, 11:45 pm, Ancient Brit <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On 25 Oct, 20:44, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any experience of the Active 10 GPS?
More details herehttp://satmap.com/

Quoted message said:

I want it for walking, as an alternative to OS maps.

GPS isn't an alternative to OS maps. Like the compass, it is an
instrument designed to make it easier to use maps and navigate in poor
visibility. If you go into mountains with GPS and no maps you are
asking for trouble.

ancient brit

But wait a few years and it will be! Once everyone owns one

I use a GPS, basic yellow Etrex, mainly for logging my route, but
always have a map as well. But I do find the GPS makes me lazy map
reading, I don't need to know exactly where I ma the GPS tells me
that. Saying that though even if the GPS failed I would know to a few
hundred metres where I was.

email hidden said:

Does anyone have any experience of the Active 10 GPS?
More details herehttp://satmap.com/

I want it for walking, as an alternative to OS maps.

I have been following the progess of the Active 10 for a while, they
seem to have been rather slow getting it into full production. It does
seem like a neet little gadget, but as other poeple have said here, I
think you would be foolish to rely on it instead of Paper maps. This,
added to the fact that you must buy proprietry format maps, even if
you already have them on your PC kind of pushes it beyond the limit of
justifiability for me. I get the feeling that the general trend will
be toward improved vector based mapping as mobile processing power
improves. I would think that the Active 10 will not be a huge success
TBH, more of a stop gap solution until the likes of Garmins Topo
maps catch up ? If you can afford it and all the associated gubbins
then go for it, but reading the OS grid from a normal GPS and
transfering it to a paper map is still a better and cheaper solution
IMHO, especially if like me you already have a gps, memory maps on
your PC and paper maps to hand.

HTH!
Simon

mr p said:

email hidden said:

Does anyone have any experience of the Active 10 GPS?
More details herehttp://satmap.com/

I want it for walking, as an alternative to OS maps.

I have been following the progess of the Active 10 for a while, they
seem to have been rather slow getting it into full production. It does
seem like a neet little gadget, but as other poeple have said here, I
think you would be foolish to rely on it instead of Paper maps. This,
added to the fact that you must buy proprietry format maps, even if
you already have them on your PC kind of pushes it beyond the limit of
justifiability for me. I get the feeling that the general trend will
be toward improved vector based mapping as mobile processing power
improves.

As I understand it, at the moment the vector maps don't have all the
paths, etc.

I would think that the Active 10 will not be a huge success

Quoted message said:

TBH, more of a stop gap solution until the likes of Garmins Topo
maps catch up ? If you can afford it and all the associated gubbins
then go for it, but reading the OS grid from a normal GPS and
transfering it to a paper map is still a better and cheaper solution
IMHO, especially if like me you already have a gps, memory maps on
your PC and paper maps to hand.

HTH!
Simon

--
Doug Weller --
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Amun - co-owner/co-moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amun/

Quoted message said:

As I understand it, at the moment the vector maps don't have all the
paths, etc.

Yes that does seem to be the case, I have often been tempted by the
Garmin 'Topo' DVD, but for all the bad reviews.
OS 25k maps are obviously the best.. I just don't see any technical
reason why Garmins topo could not be just as good in the future.

Simon

In message <[email hidden]>,
Ancient Brit <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

On 25 Oct, 20:44, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any experience of the Active 10 GPS?
More details herehttp://satmap.com/

I want it for walking, as an alternative to OS maps.

GPS isn't an alternative to OS maps. Like the compass, it is an
instrument designed to make it easier to use maps and navigate in poor
visibility. If you go into mountains with GPS and no maps you are
asking for trouble.

ancient brit

My Holux GPS with PDA using OS maps does me fine.
--
Bill Grey

Ancient Brit said:

If you go into mountains with GPS and no maps you are

Quoted message said:

asking for trouble.

Too damn' right, but it is surprising just how many there are who do ask
for trouble!

Richard

In message <[email hidden]>, Richard Spencer
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Ancient Brit said:

If you go into mountains with GPS and no maps you are

Quoted message said:

asking for trouble.

Too damn' right, but it is surprising just how many there are who do ask
for trouble!

Richard

Not quite like that Richard - more like-

"It won't happen to me..." then it does......................oops!
--
Bill Grey

Dominic Sexton said:

The Satmap site boasts that:
"You can zoom into all our maps, so for example a 1:25k map can be
enlarged to show a scale of 1:4k, giving you a very accurate map
indeed."

Which, politely, is a complete farce. The fact that it will display
the position on a zoomed and pixelated or blurred representation of
the 1:25k map in no way makes that map more accurate.

Absolutely. But you can at least see more accurate detail in your tracks and
waypoints when you zoom in.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The 60CS is very good on power.

But it has a small screen.

True, but it's good enough. I wouldn't want a huge screen anyway, there has
to be a compromise in that department. In spite of it's limitations, vector
zooming works well and I can get a decent overview when I zoom out, with
fewer contour lines shown the more I zoom out. 50m or even 250m contour
lines are quite satisfactory for an overview.

I think that the importance of map detail is often over-estimated. Sure it's
important in some situations, particularly if you're negotiating farmland,
but in many situations it's just not needed. I mean, how often do people
actually do micro-navigation? Most hill walking is done in good visibility
and it's not that hard to find the top of a hill, even without a map or GPS.

And even if the weather does close in, micro navigation is also rarely
necessary, a few key waypoints will often suffice (this of course is where a
bit of careful planning on the computer beforehand comes in handy).

Obviously there are exceptions where micro-navigation can be critical, but
I'm speaking generally here.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/pic-of-the-day/henrhyd-falls/

Ancient Brit said:

Quoted message said:

I want it for walking, as an alternative to OS maps.

GPS isn't an alternative to OS maps.

Actually it is, provided you have a mapping model with decent maps loaded of
course. It may not be as good as OS maps, but it most definitely IS an
alternative. I'm fed up with people putting down GPS.

Quoted message said:

Like the compass, it is an
instrument designed to make it easier to use maps and navigate in poor
visibility.

No, a GPS is more than that. Of course, it's best used in conjunction with
OS maps, but that can now be done beforehand with computerised mapping.
After the planning stage, once you've loaded your GPS with appropriate
routes, waypoints and whatever, it can lead you through a walk without ever
requiring you to look at the map.

In fact, I can't remember the last time I bothered to look at a map whilst
out walking! Which is not to say that I don't carry one just in case, but
with good planning and well chosen waypoints, it's hardly ever necessary.

Quoted message said:

If you go into mountains with GPS and no maps you are
asking for trouble.

No, let's be logical about this. If you go into the mountains with GPS
(presumably loaded with well chosen waypoints and routes) and no maps,
you're not asking for trouble. What you're doing is choosing to rely on a
single navigational device and no backup. A device which although not
infallible, does happen to be extremely reliable, and is highly unlikely to
let you down. Of course, it should also go without saying, but I'll say it
anyway, if you're going to rely on a GPS alone then you'll certainly be well
stocked with fully charged spare batteries.

You're still taking a risk of course, but it's a calculated risk. Is it any
less risky than only going out with one map? What if it got soaked and
ripped? What if it blew away in the wind? Yeah, unlikely I know, but so is a
GPS breaking down.

I've been using a GPS for over 7 years now and it's NEVER let me down. Oh
sure, I've run out of battery power a few times, but in all cases that was
anticipated so it didn't cause a problem. Besides, I always carry a map in
unfamiliar areas.

I also know of an instance where someone dropped a GPS and broke the screen
(you know who you are!), so he just took out his backup GPS and carried on
as normal!

I'm not advocating going out with a GPS alone, I mean, what's so hard about
taking a map too? But it's hardly the height of stupidity, especially if you
have a good mapping GPS and you know how to use it. Many people do far more
stupid things in the mountains, like not carrying any navigation aids at
all, or no waterproofs and so on. With so many numpties climbing mountains
on a sunny day with nothing but shorts and t-shirts, why criticise a GPS
user for not carrying a map?

My advice about going into the mountains is simply to know what you're doing
and make your own sensible choices regarding the equpment and the risks
you're prepared to take. If you don't know what you're doing then go out
with someone who does.

This country's gone nanny crazy...

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/pic-of-the-day/henrhyd-falls/

mr p said:

Quoted message said:

As I understand it, at the moment the vector maps don't have all the
paths, etc.

Yes that does seem to be the case, I have often been tempted by the
Garmin 'Topo' DVD, but for all the bad reviews.

I don't see why people are so bothered by the lack of paths. Sure, it would
be nice, but it's hardly essential in the hills. I mainly navigate by
contours anyway. I currently use only roads and free contours, and that
alone is more than good enough for my general navigation needs, even with no
other details and contours that aren't even all that accurate.

Why are so many people obsessed with all the details necessary for
micro-navigation when in practice, most people never do that anyway? Who
really walks along a path staring at their GPS to check that that all the
twists and turns in the path match up precisely?

I've looked at the Garmin Topo and it's superb IMO. I'm really not that
bothered by the lack of paths. The contour and stream detail alone is more
than enough for hill walking IMO.

Quoted message said:

OS 25k maps are obviously the best.. I just don't see any technical
reason why Garmins topo could not be just as good in the future.

The reason is what happens when you zoom in. Even the OS 25k just isn't that
accurate at high zoom. If you've ever used road mapping on a GPS you'll know
that different carriageways on the motorway are shown differently, and the
GPS shows which one you are on. Even more detailed are roundabouts and slip
roads, and again, with a good signal the GPS will show exactly where you are
on it. Even the 25k maps aren't that accurate, with their exaggerated road
widths.

For vector maps to compete they actually need to be more accurate than 25k
maps, because GPS accuracy these days tends to show up the errors in 25k
mapping, no matter how accurate they may look to the eye.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/pic-of-the-day/henrhyd-falls/

Ted said:

Quoted message said:

GPS isn't an alternative to OS maps.

Quoted message said:

But wait a few years and it will be! Once everyone owns one

Just like owning a car. Who complains about not having a horse for backup
these days? I mean, what if your car broke down? It could happen!

Quoted message said:

I use a GPS, basic yellow Etrex, mainly for logging my route, but
always have a map as well. But I do find the GPS makes me lazy map
reading,

I find the opposite. Since I do all my map reading *before* going out, I
tend to study it in a lot more detail.

But once I'm out, I don't look at it at all.

Quoted message said:

I don't need to know exactly where I ma the GPS tells me
that.

I couldn't care less where I am, all I care about is where I'm going. I
practically *never* read the grid ref off the GPS. My next waypoint is all I
really care about. It doesn't really matter where you are, so long as you
know where you're going!

Quoted message said:

Saying that though even if the GPS failed I would know to a few
hundred metres where I was.

I always know where I am, here! ;-)

But seriously, how would you know where you where if your GPS failed? By
looking at your map? But what if you don't have a map? How would you know
where you were then? Knowledge of where you were without a map would assume
some familiarity with the terrain.

So let's take an extreme example. If you were walking in an unfamiliar area,
at night, in thick fog, with no map, would you know where you were if your
GPS conked out?

But let's be realistic. How many people on this newsgroup have had a GPS
conk out? (bad reception and flat batteries not included).

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/pic-of-the-day/henrhyd-falls/

Richard Spencer said:

Quoted message said:

If you go into mountains with GPS and no maps you are
asking for trouble.

Too damn' right, but it is surprising just how many there are who do
ask for trouble!

Nobody asks for trouble. Most people who get into trouble are either
sensible folk who have some bad luck, or morons who don't think it will
happen to them.

All of them are taking a calculated risk. It just happens that the morons
have a somewhat more casual attitude toward risk assessment.

I'd guess that most people who take the trouble to carry a GPS are not
morons, even if they do leave the maps at home.

Of course, there are exceptions...

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/pic-of-the-day/henrhyd-falls/