Active 10 GPS

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
wonderful person Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

mr p said:

Quoted message said:

As I understand it, at the moment the vector maps don't have all the
paths, etc.

Yes that does seem to be the case, I have often been tempted by the
Garmin 'Topo' DVD, but for all the bad reviews.

I don't see why people are so bothered by the lack of paths. Sure, it would
be nice, but it's hardly essential in the hills.

Actually it's got many of the paths/tracks, what it hasn't got are the
ROWs, which is not a problem in the hills, but IS a problem down in
civilization.

It also misses a fair few private/gated roads, since the road data is
Navteq, presumably from driving them, rather than satellite (or maybe
they just didn't put roads that would confuse the autorouting?). And it
would have been nice if they'd incorporated some more of the trusty OS
features, like ALL the pubs, any/all phone boxes, churches, and other
stuff you can sue for navigation &/or re-supply.

Despite all that it is the best you can get, and the contours/water
features are a 1:1 match to 1:25k OS map data, which makes it pretty
easy to cross-work micro-navigation between the handset and 1:25k paper,
without even taking GRs and getting your roamer out.

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
10,002 Km walked. 1,952 Km PROWs surveyed. 35.5% complete.

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
wonderful person Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> said
<snip>

Quoted message said:

But let's be realistic. How many people on this newsgroup have had a GPS
conk out? (bad reception and flat batteries not included).

Me .. twice. Once water leaked in and shorted everything (Garmin
replaced that one) and once I deleted a waypoint on a route I was
navigating and locked the unit up solid (had to do a master reset, when
I got home, losing all maps, routes, and everything). Plus a couple of
times when the spare batteries turned out not to be, IYSWIM.

Only the first one was embarrassing since I was in low cloud/driving
rain on Titterstone Clee at the time .. so it was the old 'head downhill
through the tussocks, follow the fences, hop the ditches, until you find
a track or whatever'. It's only about 10 miles around the bottom of the
hill wherever you come down (proper mountains might be more annoying).

Map - yep had a (damp) map, but that's not a lot of use when visibility
is 20m (5m for glasses wearers). Compass slightly more use .. just
slightly.

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
10,002 Km walked. 1,952 Km PROWs surveyed. 35.5% complete.

In message <[email hidden]>

Paul Saunders said:

I'm not advocating going out with a GPS alone, I mean, what's so hard about
taking a map too? But it's hardly the height of stupidity, especially if you
have a good mapping GPS and you know how to use it. Many people do far more
stupid things in the mountains, like not carrying any navigation aids at
all, or no waterproofs and so on. With so many numpties climbing mountains
on a sunny day with nothing but shorts and t-shirts, why criticise a GPS
user for not carrying a map?

And that's quite possibly over-exaggerating things. Quite often there
is no need for any navigational aids, if you know the area well and it
isn't a particularly featureless place. I can't remember when I last
actually looked at a compass in anger, although admittedly I'm
unlikely to find myself in a featureless landscape in bad weather
because I'd rather stay at home if that looks likely. I also fail to
understand what's so bad about just wearing shorts and t-shirts on a
sunny day. It makes sense to carry something else, but in the middle
of summer in a period of settled high pressure it's not worth worrying
about.

--
Simon Challands

The message <[email hidden]>
from Simon Challands <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not advocating going out with a GPS alone, I mean, what's so
hard about
taking a map too? But it's hardly the height of stupidity,
especially if you
have a good mapping GPS and you know how to use it. Many people do
far more
stupid things in the mountains, like not carrying any navigation aids at
all, or no waterproofs and so on. With so many numpties climbing mountains
on a sunny day with nothing but shorts and t-shirts, why criticise a GPS
user for not carrying a map?

Quoted message said:

And that's quite possibly over-exaggerating things. Quite often there
is no need for any navigational aids, if you know the area well and it
isn't a particularly featureless place. I can't remember when I last
actually looked at a compass in anger, although admittedly I'm
unlikely to find myself in a featureless landscape in bad weather
because I'd rather stay at home if that looks likely.

Even on a good day the chances of being in cloud at some point may be
quite high. I quite often look at my compass just to check which
direction is North.

Unlike Paul however hard I study a map in advance I can't remember even
simple topography without a prior visit so on new territory I find
myself studying a map quite often. Of course on familiar ground I am
unlikely to need a map even when the visibility is next to non existent.

Quoted message said:

I also fail to
understand what's so bad about just wearing shorts and t-shirts on a
sunny day. It makes sense to carry something else, but in the middle
of summer in a period of settled high pressure it's not worth worrying
about.

That is where the 'what ifs' come in.

The first what if is the unobvious one - skin cancer. One of the reasons
I don't wear shorts or short sleeves is because I spend a lot of time
out of doors these days even though very little of that is away from
home.

The second is the difference between the conditions down in the valley
and up on the tops. Last weekend gave contrasting conditions between
Friday and Saturday and Sunday. On Friday it was so still I didn't need
anything over my shirt. On Saturday there was a breeze at low level
which just about justified an open fleece but on the tops a fleece* was
only just enough when moving and a jacket was required at the lunch
break. On Sunday when I was on my own for a 5 hour walk the wind was
marginally colder and I just didn't bother to stop.

The third is the nature of the margins. It is not at all pleasant going
through solid nettles without some protection on the legs and wet
bracken is best tackled in overtrousers regardless of whether it is
raining or not.

The forth is what should happen if you become disabled for any reason.
The more you are carrying (within reason) the more chance you have of
surviving. It doesn't have to be anything serious. Sudden loss of energy
or a twisted ankle miles from the nearest person can turn a day out from
a pleasant walk to a struggle for survival in an instant. If you have a
companion or a mobile phone you could perhaps rely on them to summon
assistance but sods law says that even if you walk alone only
occasionally when you need help you will be on your own and if you have
a mobile you won't be able to get a signal when you need it.

*Those who remember these things will know that I don't usually walk in
a fleece but circumstances conspired to make that the practical option.
My original intention had been to abandon the fleece in the transport
and rely on the spare sweater in my rucksack should I need one later.
The breeze at the start point was unexpected but it was still a close
call whether or not I dumped the fleece. In not doing so I was
influenced as much by the expected slow pace of my elderly companions as
by the cold at the car park.

--
Roger Chapman
Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
89 miles as the crow flies,
considerably more as the walker drives.

Paul Saunders said:

Quoted message said:

GPS isn't an alternative to OS maps.

Actually it is, provided you have a mapping model with decent maps loaded of
course. It may not be as good as OS maps, but it most definitely IS an
alternative. I'm fed up with people putting down GPS.

Quoted message said:

Like the compass, it is an
instrument designed to make it easier to use maps and navigate in poor
visibility.

No, a GPS is more than that. Of course, it's best used in conjunction with
OS maps, but that can now be done beforehand with computerised mapping.
After the planning stage, once you've loaded your GPS with appropriate
routes, waypoints and whatever, it can lead you through a walk without ever
requiring you to look at the map.

Quoted message said:

If you go into mountains with GPS and no maps you are
asking for trouble.

No, let's be logical about this. If you go into the mountains with GPS
(presumably loaded with well chosen waypoints and routes) and no maps,
you're not asking for trouble. What you're doing is choosing to rely on a
single navigational device and no backup. A device which although not
infallible, does happen to be extremely reliable, and is highly unlikely to
let you down. Of course, it should also go without saying, but I'll say it
anyway, if you're going to rely on a GPS alone then you'll certainly be well
stocked with fully charged spare batteries.

You're still taking a risk of course, but it's a calculated risk. Is it any
less risky than only going out with one map? What if it got soaked and
ripped? What if it blew away in the wind? Yeah, unlikely I know, but so is a
GPS breaking down.

I'm not advocating going out with a GPS alone, I mean, what's so hard about
taking a map too? But it's hardly the height of stupidity, especially if you
have a good mapping GPS and you know how to use it. Many people do far more
stupid things in the mountains, like not carrying any navigation aids at
all, or no waterproofs and so on. With so many numpties climbing mountains
on a sunny day with nothing but shorts and t-shirts, why criticise a GPS
user for not carrying a map?

I used GPS in conjunction with OS maps this summer when I climbed all
284 Munros in Scotland and most of the tops so I am speaking with
experience of use in rough mountains in bad weather conditions.

In good weather either GPS or OS maps would have been all a competent
navigator would have needed. A poor map reader (a majority of mountain
walkers are poor map readers) in these conditions would have found the
GPS all that they needed.

HOWEVER the weather this summer was awful.

The biggest ADVANTAGE of the GPS over the compass (with map) was that
it gave me distance, so I didn't have to do any pace-counting which I
had often had to do in poor visibility in the past and the GPS is much
more accurate than pace-counting. The other big advantage of GPS was
that it, when following a bearing, I could deviate from the straight
line to use the easiest way through the terrain and then come back to
line, where I would have tried to stay closer to the bearing using a
compass.

There are however DISADVANTAGES to using a GPS.
If you are using walking poles, unless you have a third hand, a
compass is more convenient for the continuous use needed in extreme
conditions than GPS.
There are times when you have difficulty getting a satellite signal.
Especially in FORESTS, but try turning your GPS on in a blizzard and
see if you can get a fix. (There were blizzards this summer!!)
There are a few places, eg the Cuillin Mountains on Skye, where you
need to be able to mico-navigate the fine detail on the map

The biggest problem, however, is that you CAN'T CHANGE YOUR ROUTE.
What happens if something happens which means you need to change your
route? This could be accident or injury. It could be because you have
underestimate the time for your walk. This summer for me it was
usually because the wind made it necessary for me to abandon walks.
For others it could be because of rain or cloud. If you haven't got a
map with you it is difficult to change your route safely. (Remembering
it is in poor weather that you are most likely to want to change your
route)

Also I think you will find learniing to use and understand the map
will enhance your enjoyment of your walk.

Ancient Brit

Ancient Brit wrote:

[ various advantages snipped ]

Quoted message said:

There are however DISADVANTAGES to using a GPS.
If you are using walking poles, unless you have a third hand, a
compass is more convenient for the continuous use needed in extreme
conditions than GPS.

I've skied in Norway, off-track, through some tricky terrain, in a blizzard,
with the GPS on my wrist, held in place with a mix of the lanyard, the
ski-pole strap, and the tension strap on back of a glove. Worked fine,
could be read easily and quickly, kept a good view of the sky for satellite
reception. Ski poles being like walking poles, I would expect that to work
when walking.

Quoted message said:

There are times when you have difficulty getting a satellite signal.
Especially in FORESTS, but try turning your GPS on in a blizzard and
see if you can get a fix. (There were blizzards this summer!!)

Which GPS ? My VistaCx has no difficulty in Norway. I would expect those
with more sensitive chipsets to be better.

Quoted message said:

There are a few places, eg the Cuillin Mountains on Skye, where you
need to be able to mico-navigate the fine detail on the map

You can pre-load this data if you are organised.

Quoted message said:

The biggest problem, however, is that you CAN'T CHANGE YOUR ROUTE.

Eh ? That suggests lack of planning, and/or lack of understanding of the
GPS.
If there are enough features loaded into the unit, its a matter of a few
seconds to programme in a new route.
If it were rough weather, I'd just pick an intermediate point (either from
the GPS's stored data, or from the map) and "GOTO" that location. Then
repeat for the next leg, etc. until I'd got a bit of shelter to setup
something of more than one leg.

Having the GPS both follow a route and record a trail at the same time
allows easy deviation from a planned route; the trail shows where you've
wandered away from the plan.

Quoted message said:

What happens if something happens which means you need to change your
route? This could be accident or injury. It could be because you have
underestimate the time for your walk. This summer for me it was
usually because the wind made it necessary for me to abandon walks.
For others it could be because of rain or cloud. If you haven't got a
map with you it is difficult to change your route safely. (Remembering
it is in poor weather that you are most likely to want to change your
route)

I routinely change my planned routes on a GPS; looking at the time of day,
weather, progress, etc.. I can make changes on the go. I can change things
when cycling with the unit on the handlebar of a bike, which is a lot more
tricky than doing it whilst walking, at a push I can change it cycling
slowly off-road (did so on a recent East Anglian "Rough Stuff" ride).

Quoted message said:

Also I think you will find learniing to use and understand the map
will enhance your enjoyment of your walk.

Agree about that bit !

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Ancient Brit said:

Paul Saunders said:

Quoted message said:

GPS isn't an alternative to OS maps.

Actually it is, provided you have a mapping model with decent maps loaded of
course. It may not be as good as OS maps, but it most definitely IS an
alternative. I'm fed up with people putting down GPS.

Quoted message said:

Like the compass, it is an
instrument designed to make it easier to use maps and navigate in poor
visibility.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not advocating going out with a GPS alone, I mean, what's so hard about
taking a map too?

Especially if it is just a sheet of A4 printed out from MemoryMap etc.

Quoted message said:

The biggest ADVANTAGE of the GPS over the compass (with map) was that
it gave me distance, so I didn't have to do any pace-counting which I
had often had to do in poor visibility in the past and the GPS is much
more accurate than pace-counting. The other big advantage of GPS was
that it, when following a bearing, I could deviate from the straight
line to use the easiest way through the terrain and then come back to
line, where I would have tried to stay closer to the bearing using a
compass.

I use my GPS in conjunction with a compass [1] to walk on bearings
too. The trick is to mark a waypoint where you set off on the bearing,
set the GPS to goto it and walk away from it the distance you need to
go. Far more accurate than counting paces over rough ground.

Quoted message said:

There are however DISADVANTAGES to using a GPS.
If you are using walking poles, unless you have a third hand, a
compass is more convenient for the continuous use needed in extreme
conditions than GPS.

You still need a third hand to hold a compass and two poles. What
would be handy would be a feature to rotate the screen so that you
could look at it with the GPS hanging from a shoulder strap much like
a nurse's watch.

Quoted message said:

There are times when you have difficulty getting a satellite signal.
Especially in FORESTS, but try turning your GPS on in a blizzard and
see if you can get a fix. (There were blizzards this summer!!)

Modern GPS units can keep a lock much better than older ones and have
low battery drain so it makes sense to switch on and get a good lock
at the start of the walk and then leave it switched on.

Quoted message said:

There are a few places, eg the Cuillin Mountains on Skye, where you
need to be able to mico-navigate the fine detail on the map

That assumes the map is good enough. For the Cuillin the OS maps are
deficient compared with the Harveys.

Quoted message said:

The biggest problem, however, is that you CAN'T CHANGE YOUR ROUTE.

Yes you can, you just need to plan for it by including waypoints and
routes for escape.

My hill walking GPS is a GPS12 brick so no mapping, no compass and no
barometric altimeter, but it is mighty useful nonetheless. It has a
capacity of 500 waypoints and 20 routes. I have a second GPS built
into my PDA (a Mio P550) which also has mapping software on it and
thus access to OS maps at 1:50k, though the limit of legibility or the
raster images at that scale is at about 3km x 3km and the battery wont
last a full day so I only use it occasionally when walking.
--
Phil Cook, last hill: Geal Charn above Glen Markie
http://www.p-t-cook.freeserve.co.uk/Oct07/wh11.htm

Ancient Brit said:

I used GPS in conjunction with OS maps this summer when I climbed all
284 Munros in Scotland and most of the tops

Nice one! Congrats on doing that!

Quoted message said:

so I am speaking with
experience of use in rough mountains in bad weather conditions.

Good, but I think you'll agree that what you did is a little more extreme
than what the average walker does.

Quoted message said:

HOWEVER the weather this summer was awful.

True, but many people avoid hill walking in bad weather. Perhaps this
correlates with their navigational skills, or lack of?

Quoted message said:

The other big advantage of GPS was
that it, when following a bearing, I could deviate from the straight
line to use the easiest way through the terrain and then come back to
line, where I would have tried to stay closer to the bearing using a
compass.

That's probably the biggest advantage for me. I hate walking in straight
lines. I like to negotiate the easiest ground so I treat the bearing to the
next waypoint as a rough guide only. So long as the arrow isn't pointing
backwards I'll get there eventually! ;-)

Quoted message said:

There are however DISADVANTAGES to using a GPS.
If you are using walking poles, unless you have a third hand, a
compass is more convenient for the continuous use needed in extreme
conditions than GPS.

That's an unfair criticism. You need extra hands for map and compass too, so
that's not specifically a GPS disadvantage.

I suppose for regular GPS use with walking poles a wrist GPS may be a better
option, although I haven't looked much into those and I don't think they're
very good on features. My technique when using poles is simply to glance at
the GPS occasionally. If I really need to use it continuously, I'll just use
one pole.

Quoted message said:

There are times when you have difficulty getting a satellite signal.
Especially in FORESTS,

I rarely have that problem, even in forests my 60CS keeps lock most of the
time, just as my GPS12 did. It only loses lock intermittently and it's
rarely a problem. It's more likely to lose lock in deep valleys, especially
with forests (particularly the Ystradfellte area), but even then, it's hard
to get lost in a valley, especially since it still gives me altitude data,
which makes it easy to pinpoint my position.

Quoted message said:

but try turning your GPS on in a blizzard and
see if you can get a fix. (There were blizzards this summer!!)

I haven't actually used it in a blizzard yet, but as Phil said, I wouldn't
"turn it on in a blizzard". It's always turned on. Keeping a lock is much
easier than getting one.

Quoted message said:

There are a few places, eg the Cuillin Mountains on Skye, where you
need to be able to mico-navigate the fine detail on the map

So you do that in advance on the computer, plotting a detailed route. But
with lots of cliffs around it's probably better to look where you're going
rather than staring at the GPS or a map.

Quoted message said:

The biggest problem, however, is that you CAN'T CHANGE YOUR ROUTE.

Yes you can! I do it all the time!

Quoted message said:

What happens if something happens which means you need to change your
route? This could be accident or injury. It could be because you have
underestimate the time for your walk. This summer for me it was
usually because the wind made it necessary for me to abandon walks.
For others it could be because of rain or cloud. If you haven't got a
map with you it is difficult to change your route safely.

No it's not, you just need to plan for it in advance.

Quoted message said:

(Remembering
it is in poor weather that you are most likely to want to change your
route)

All the more reason to have alternative plans if bad weather is likely. The
trick is not just to plan for where you'd like to go, but also to plan for
where you might end up going.

I've written about this many times on this newsgroup, but I'll reiterate for
your benefit. First I'll plot a tentative route, then I'll add numerous
additional waypoints to cover other useful features in the area, such as
summits and other prominent features, lakes, cols, key points such as path
junctions, bridges etc, and so on. Basically I'll input all the features
I'll be able to see and which may come in useful if I need to change my
route. You simply need to ask yourself the question "if I change my route,
where would I be likely to go instead?" Then add extra waypoints to cover
those eventualities.

Many of these waypoints can be used for navigational reference, even if you
don't want to visit them. For example, if I'm on trackless ground with zero
visibility, rather than reading off the grid ref and looking it up on the
map, I can simply look at the list of nearest waypoints to see where I am
relative to key features. So for example, if I know that Summit A is 2.3km
to the NE, Summit B is 4.6km to the NW and Lake A is 1.3km to the SW, then I
know where I am, relatively speaking. I don't need to know the actual grid
ref. (Actually it's much simpler just to look at the map display, but it is
sometimes useful to know the actual distances.)

Other waypoints could be critically important, for example those marking
escape routes off the mountain, if things turn bad, so it's wise to add
those in advance, just in case.

In practice, for many of my walks I don't bother entering a route at all, I
just scatter useful waypoints over the map. I don't even need to GOTO any of
them in good visibility, I can just glance at the map screen. Occasionally
it's handy to enter a GOTO if necessary, so I can basically make up a route
as I go, just using GOTOs for each one. This is much more flexible than
sticking to a fixed route.

Of course, fixed routes are more efficient if you specifically want to
follow a fixed route, but for my purposes I often do a lot of wandering to
find photo viewpoints, so fixed routes aren't so useful for me. And my photo
plans can often change quickly with a change in the weather, so I'll often
abandon waypoints I'd planned to visit and go a different way instead.

Having a load of waypoints loaded in advance gives you tremendous
flexiblity, and you rarely ever need to look at the map if you've chosen
them well. If you revisit the same areas frequently, it's advantageous to
save your waypoint collections in files so that you can load them quickly.

Quoted message said:

Also I think you will find learniing to use and understand the map
will enhance your enjoyment of your walk.

Knowing how to use and understand a map is a prerequisite for all this
waypoint plotting and route planning! How would you know where to place your
waypoints if you don't understand the map? It's not a question of placing
waypoints randomly, there's a certain amount of skill involved in choosing
key waypoints, especially if you're plotting a route near cliffs for
example. Too many waypoints could cause confusion. The fewer the waypoints,
the better the clarity, but you do need enough to cover all the critical
points.

What GPS are you using by the way?

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/pic-of-the-day/henrhyd-falls/

Phil Cook said:

I use my GPS in conjunction with a compass [1] to walk on bearings
too. The trick is to mark a waypoint where you set off on the bearing,
set the GPS to goto it and walk away from it the distance you need to
go. Far more accurate than counting paces over rough ground.

That's a handy tip. I'll try to remember that if I ever need to use it. What
would you need to use it for?

Quoted message said:

My hill walking GPS is a GPS12 brick so no mapping, no compass and no
barometric altimeter, but it is mighty useful nonetheless.

Glad to hear that you're still getting good use of that Phil.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/pic-of-the-day/henrhyd-falls/

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

Quoted message said:

I don't see why people are so bothered by the lack of paths. Sure,
it would be nice, but it's hardly essential in the hills.

Actually it's got many of the paths/tracks, what it hasn't got are the
ROWs, which is not a problem in the hills, but IS a problem down in
civilization.

Fair point. I rarely walk in civilisation though.

Quoted message said:

And
it would have been nice if they'd incorporated some more of the
trusty OS features, like ALL the pubs, any/all phone boxes, churches,
and other stuff you can sue for navigation &/or re-supply.

Yeah, churches are a classic navigation aid.

Quoted message said:

Despite all that it is the best you can get, and the contours/water
features are a 1:1 match to 1:25k OS map data, which makes it pretty
easy to cross-work micro-navigation between the handset and 1:25k
paper, without even taking GRs and getting your roamer out.

That's what I find most appealing, the contours and water features. I'm
really not that fussed about the rest of it. Still haven't got around to
buying it though.

I remember Chris Boughay telling me that when he was doing mountain leader
training, they taught him to learn to navigate by contours alone, ignoring
other features, all of which could potentially change and be different to
what's shown on the map. Contours are one of the few "constants", with
certain obvious exceptions.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/pic-of-the-day/henrhyd-falls/

Paul Saunders said:

Phil Cook said:

I use my GPS in conjunction with a compass to walk on bearings
too. The trick is to mark a waypoint where you set off on the bearing,
set the GPS to goto it and walk away from it the distance you need to
go. Far more accurate than counting paces over rough ground.

That's a handy tip. I'll try to remember that if I ever need to use it. What
would you need to use it for?

I used it recently getting off Geal Charn above Glen Markie in the
clag. I needed to walk a dog-leg along a lumpy broad ridge and hadn't
put any waypoints in other than the summits of Munros. Of course you
need a map to know what bearing to walk on.
--
Phil Cook, last hill: Geal Charn above Glen Markie
http://www.p-t-cook.freeserve.co.uk/Oct07/wh11.htm

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

Quoted message said:

But let's be realistic. How many people on this newsgroup have had a
GPS conk out? (bad reception and flat batteries not included).

Me .. twice. Once water leaked in and shorted everything (Garmin
replaced that one) and once I deleted a waypoint on a route I was
navigating and locked the unit up solid

Ah well, so it can happen.

Quoted message said:

It's only about 10 miles around
the bottom of the hill wherever you come down (proper mountains might
be more annoying).

Yeah, that's another thing. We don't have huge wilderness expanses in the
UK. With no doubt some exceptions in Scotland, you're never very far away
from civilisation, so even if you get hopelessly lost, you just need to keep
walking until you reach a road.

Quoted message said:

Map - yep had a (damp) map, but that's not a lot of use when
visibility is 20m (5m for glasses wearers).

But you can still work out your direction from the slope of the contours.

Quoted message said:

Compass slightly more use
.. just slightly.

Not without a map. I'd prefer the map to the compass anyday, even in zero
visibility.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/pic-of-the-day/henrhyd-falls/

Simon Challands said:

Quoted message said:

With so many numpties climbing mountains on a
sunny day with nothing but shorts and t-shirts, why criticise a GPS
user for not carrying a map?

And that's quite possibly over-exaggerating things. Quite often there
is no need for any navigational aids, if you know the area well and it
isn't a particularly featureless place.

Agreed. Much depends on where you're walking of course. You're hardly likely
to get lost on Snowdon no matter how bad the weather, just walk toward the
voices then follow the hordes! ;-)

And although we keep talking about mountains, don't forget, there are plenty
of other places you can walk too. Coastal walks are very popular and very
hard to get lost on.

Quoted message said:

I can't remember when I last
actually looked at a compass in anger,

Same here. I find that a (sighting) compass is most useful for identifying
distant peaks, especially when used in conjuntion with a GPS.

Quoted message said:

I also fail to
understand what's so bad about just wearing shorts and t-shirts on a
sunny day. It makes sense to carry something else, but in the middle
of summer in a period of settled high pressure it's not worth worrying
about.

That's the key, settled high pressure. There's a big difference between a
sunny day that could change at any moment and those long summer heatwaves
(remember those?).

People often remark that the weather can change in an instant in the
mountains. Well actually no, with settled high pressure over the whole
country, it couldn't. High pressure takes a long time to move. I suppose you
have to have some understand of how weather works to take advantage of this
fact, but I've gone on multi-day camping trips in the hills with no
waterproofs, safe in the knowledge that it definitely wouldn't rain!

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/pic-of-the-day/henrhyd-falls/

Roger said:

Even on a good day the chances of being in cloud at some point may be
quite high.

Depends what kind of good day. With settled high pressure and a clear (hazy)
sky, the odds are practically nil. Of course, we don't get that kind of
weather all that often. A typical "good day" is usually just a brief respite
from the endless frontal systems rolling in.

Quoted message said:

I quite often look at my compass just to check which
direction is North.

Really? I can't remember the last time I looked at my compass. Come to think
of it, where the hell *is* my compass? Can't remember the last time I
bothered to take it with me.

Quoted message said:

Unlike Paul however hard I study a map in advance I can't remember
even simple topography without a prior visit so on new territory I
find myself studying a map quite often.

Use the 3D views, then jump in your virtual plane and fly around the area
for a bit!

Am I right in thinking that you don't preload your GPS with waypoints? If
so, doing that can help a lot. Simply marking summits and connecting cols,
with heights in the waypoint names, can be an excellent visual reminder for
the overall shape of the land, even on a non-mapping GPS.

For example, if I see three waypoints close to one another that say
something like:

Sum976
Col752
Sum829

Then it's pretty clear that those summits are joined via the col in between
them, and the heights in the names give you an instant reference for the
ascents and descents involved.

Quoted message said:

Of course on familiar ground I am
unlikely to need a map even when the visibility is next to non
existent.

Indeed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also fail to
understand what's so bad about just wearing shorts and t-shirts on a
sunny day. It makes sense to carry something else, but in the middle
of summer in a period of settled high pressure it's not worth
worrying about.

That is where the 'what ifs' come in.

But some of these "what ifs" can verge on the paranoid, and seem to be
symptomatic of our "nanny state" these days. If you prepare for every
possible eventuality you'll end up carrying half a ton of gear for a simple
short stroll on a sunny summer's day. At some point you have to accept a
level of risk. There needs to be a compromise between preparing for
everything and not being too paranoid. Certain risks are acceptable, it's up
to the individual to assess the situation and decide which risks are worth
taking IMO.

Quoted message said:

The first what if is the unobvious one - skin cancer.

I doubt that many people worry about that. I hate getting sunburnt though,
but I also hate wearing too many clothes on a hot day.

Quoted message said:

The second is the difference between the conditions down in the valley
and up on the tops.

This can be a big difference on a typical sunny day (i.e. brief respite from
rain), but with settled high pressure it can be 25+ on the tops. I got badly
sunburned once after falling asleep on a rock for an hour or so on top of
Glyder Fach. I've also been sunburned on Mynydd Du more than once.

Quoted message said:

The third is the nature of the margins. It is not at all pleasant
going through solid nettles without some protection on the legs and
wet
bracken is best tackled in overtrousers regardless of whether it is
raining or not.

I try to avoid margins whenever possible, generally choosing to park my car
higher up to avoid all that valley nonsense.

Quoted message said:

The forth is what should happen if you become disabled for any reason.

True.

Quoted message said:

sods law says that even if you walk alone only
occasionally when you need help you will be on your own

The only time I had an accident was on a sunny day on Kinder Scout, in a
group of people all armed with maps, GPS and mobiles, and the whole hill
covered with hundreds of walkers! I limped back slowly on my own, there was
really no risk in those conditions. If I'd been unable to make it there were
plenty of people around to ask for assistance.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/pic-of-the-day/henrhyd-falls/

On Oct 27, 11:15 pm, "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

But seriously, how would you know where you where if your GPS failed? By
looking at your map? But what if you don't have a map? How would you know
where you were then? Knowledge of where you were without a map would assume
some familiarity with the terrain.

So let's take an extreme example. If you were walking in an unfamiliar area,
at night, in thick fog, with no map, would you know where you were if your
GPS conked out?

But let's be realistic. How many people on this newsgroup have had a GPS
conk out? (bad reception and flat batteries not included).

Paul
--http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/pic-of-the-day/henrhyd-falls/

If I am walking in an unfamiliar area, in mist, I tend to work out
before hand what my escape roue is, e.g. head East to find a river/
road. In those conditions I tend to ensure I know roughly where I am
on the map.

Eventually no one will use paper maps, I am sure when maps were
invented a similar argument raged.

Such as what would happen if you lost your map, e.g.if it was blow
away etc. therefore logicaly a local guide would be the best option!

Ted

In message <[email hidden]>

Roger said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from Simon Challands <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And that's quite possibly over-exaggerating things. Quite often there
is no need for any navigational aids, if you know the area well and it
isn't a particularly featureless place. I can't remember when I last
actually looked at a compass in anger, although admittedly I'm
unlikely to find myself in a featureless landscape in bad weather
because I'd rather stay at home if that looks likely.

Even on a good day the chances of being in cloud at some point may be
quite high. I quite often look at my compass just to check which
direction is North.

On a today like today that's very much the case, but during a
prolonged period of high pressure in the middle of summer it's
unlikely, and in any case if the terrain isn't particularly
featureless and you're familiar with the area you don't need it.

Quoted message said:

Unlike Paul however hard I study a map in advance I can't remember even
simple topography without a prior visit so on new territory I find
myself studying a map quite often. Of course on familiar ground I am
unlikely to need a map even when the visibility is next to non existent.

I'll often look at a map in unfamiliar territory, but as I said
before, I can't remember when I last looked at a compass. I've never
even bothered with a GPS. It can do things that might be of interest,
but it's an additional toy IMO, at least in the places I usually go.
If you often end up trudging around moorland in atrocious weather I
imagine it could be quite useful.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also fail to
understand what's so bad about just wearing shorts and t-shirts on a
sunny day. It makes sense to carry something else, but in the middle
of summer in a period of settled high pressure it's not worth worrying
about.

That is where the 'what ifs' come in.

Society these days is far too paranoid about "what ifs", to the extent
that I've seen people on the fells in good weather looking prepared
for mountain climbing in Antarctica.

Quoted message said:

The first what if is the unobvious one - skin cancer. One of the reasons
I don't wear shorts or short sleeves is because I spend a lot of time
out of doors these days even though very little of that is away from
home.

I do because I don't like overheating. There is a risk, but it's not a
very big one, and that's what sunblock is for anyway.

Quoted message said:

The second is the difference between the conditions down in the valley
and up on the tops. Last weekend gave contrasting conditions between
Friday and Saturday and Sunday. On Friday it was so still I didn't need
anything over my shirt. On Saturday there was a breeze at low level
which just about justified an open fleece but on the tops a fleece* was
only just enough when moving and a jacket was required at the lunch
break. On Sunday when I was on my own for a 5 hour walk the wind was
marginally colder and I just didn't bother to stop.

That's where experience comes in. Again, last weekend is hardly the
middle of summer. It also depends on where you're going. Personally
I'll always be carrying something to put on over the t-shirt if I set
out in one, but in summer it's hardly a major error. At this time of
year, it probably isn't all that sensible. Of course, you don't know
what someone is carrying in their sack.

Quoted message said:

The third is the nature of the margins. It is not at all pleasant going
through solid nettles without some protection on the legs and wet
bracken is best tackled in overtrousers regardless of whether it is
raining or not.

Again, a minor issue (assuming you check for ticks afterwards anyway,
which seem to be able to sneak through whatever you're wearing).

Quoted message said:

The forth is what should happen if you become disabled for any reason.
The more you are carrying (within reason) the more chance you have of
surviving. It doesn't have to be anything serious. Sudden loss of energy
or a twisted ankle miles from the nearest person can turn a day out from
a pleasant walk to a struggle for survival in an instant. If you have a
companion or a mobile phone you could perhaps rely on them to summon
assistance but sods law says that even if you walk alone only
occasionally when you need help you will be on your own and if you have
a mobile you won't be able to get a signal when you need it.

All being overly paranoid IMO. Mine exploration is something where I
take that attitude, but walking I almost always go on my own, and
don't take a mobile (can't stand the things). If you carry on with the
"what ifs" you'll either end up carrying so much that that loss of
energy is almost guaranteed, or you'll not bother going at all. Since
most of the time I'm walking in the Lake District, the chances of
there not being anyone else around in the very unlikely event I do get
in real trouble (as opposed to just uncomfortable) are (unfortunately)
high. I sometimes wonder how people manage to get any pleasure out of
life these days, they seem so paranoid about something dangerous that
might happen that they are always having to worry about it.

--
Simon Challands

In message <[email hidden]>

Paul Saunders said:

Ancient Brit said:

HOWEVER the weather this summer was awful.

True, but many people avoid hill walking in bad weather. Perhaps this
correlates with their navigational skills, or lack of?

Not really. Speaking for myself, I don't find much pleasure in walking
in bad weather, other than the shower when I get home feeling even
more welcome!

--
Simon Challands

In message <[email hidden]>

Paul Saunders said:

That's the key, settled high pressure. There's a big difference between a
sunny day that could change at any moment and those long summer heatwaves
(remember those?).

All too well. I've spent most of this summer being sent over to the
south of France to work. For some reason people back here kept
swearing at me when I complained of getting a bit tired of the endless
heat and sunshine. Some nice walking that way too...

--
Simon Challands

The message <[email hidden]>
from "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Even on a good day the chances of being in cloud at some point may be
quite high.

Quoted message said:

Depends what kind of good day. With settled high pressure and a clear
(hazy)
sky, the odds are practically nil. Of course, we don't get that kind of
weather all that often. A typical "good day" is usually just a brief
respite
from the endless frontal systems rolling in.

Saturday before last South of the Beacons it was clear. The Northern
flanks were however clothed in low level mist that did not clear
completely until quite late in the day.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I quite often look at my compass just to check which
direction is North.

Quoted message said:

Really? I can't remember the last time I looked at my compass. Come to
think
of it, where the hell *is* my compass? Can't remember the last time I
bothered to take it with me.

It is a good deal easier that looking at the sun and then trying to work
out what bearing the sun should be on at that time of day. My compass is
in a pocket and attached to my belt by a lanyard. It is easier to get to
than the gps on my shoulder and I don't need to move to make it show me
the direction.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Unlike Paul however hard I study a map in advance I can't remember
even simple topography without a prior visit so on new territory I
find myself studying a map quite often.

Quoted message said:

Use the 3D views, then jump in your virtual plane and fly around the area
for a bit!

I am not into virtual flying but it is not the same as being there anyway.

Quoted message said:

Am I right in thinking that you don't preload your GPS with waypoints? If
so, doing that can help a lot. Simply marking summits and connecting cols,
with heights in the waypoint names, can be an excellent visual reminder for
the overall shape of the land, even on a non-mapping GPS.

No. When I am out on my own in unfamiliar territory I will at least have
waypoints for the summits I intend to visit. If the weather is bad and
the navigation difficult I might also have the occasional col or other
turning point feature in as well. As of late I have taken to putting in
the parking places as I routinely forget to lay a waypoint before I set
off. I need more than a few dots on the screen to give me a feel for the
shape of the land.

Quoted message said:

For example, if I see three waypoints close to one another that say
something like:

Quoted message said:

Sum976
Col752
Sum829

Quoted message said:

Then it's pretty clear that those summits are joined via the col in between
them, and the heights in the names give you an instant reference for the
ascents and descents involved.

But not what they are. I stick to names for waypoints.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Of course on familiar ground I am
unlikely to need a map even when the visibility is next to non
existent.

Quoted message said:

Indeed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also fail to
understand what's so bad about just wearing shorts and t-shirts on a
sunny day. It makes sense to carry something else, but in the middle
of summer in a period of settled high pressure it's not worth
worrying about.

That is where the 'what ifs' come in.

Quoted message said:

But some of these "what ifs" can verge on the paranoid, and seem to be
symptomatic of our "nanny state" these days. If you prepare for every
possible eventuality you'll end up carrying half a ton of gear for a simple
short stroll on a sunny summer's day. At some point you have to accept a
level of risk. There needs to be a compromise between preparing for
everything and not being too paranoid. Certain risks are acceptable,
it's up
to the individual to assess the situation and decide which risks are worth
taking IMO.

I think anyone who walks on their own has a cavalier attitude to risk
taking but then I started doing it when it was received wisdom that
walkers should travel in parties of at least three. I don't usually
carry much excess baggage. On short summer strolls (as on Friday before
last) I had only a fleece tied round my waist as extra gear for the
first hill of the day. The second warranted a rucksack as it was close
lunch time and likewise the third as I didn't get round to stopping for
lunch on the second which had turned out to be a good deal easier than I
expected given the deep heather referred to in a write up of the peak.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The first what if is the unobvious one - skin cancer.

Quoted message said:

I doubt that many people worry about that. I hate getting sunburnt though,
but I also hate wearing too many clothes on a hot day.

They should worry. The ozone layer is getting thinner even in these
latitudes. Sun burn is the fast route to skin cancer but wearing a long
sleeved shirt is not necessarily going to make you hotter than going
without. A light coloured shirt in particular will reflect a good bit of
the incident sunlight. The last time I can remember taking my shirt off
to take advantage of the sun was on a windless winter day above the
snowline on Aran Fawddwy more than 30 years ago.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The second is the difference between the conditions down in the valley
and up on the tops.

Quoted message said:

This can be a big difference on a typical sunny day (i.e. brief
respite from
rain), but with settled high pressure it can be 25+ on the tops. I got
badly
sunburned once after falling asleep on a rock for an hour or so on top of
Glyder Fach. I've also been sunburned on Mynydd Du more than once.

You could have got sunburnt on Mynydd Du the weekend before this one if
you could have stood the wind chill. :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The third is the nature of the margins. It is not at all pleasant
going through solid nettles without some protection on the legs and
wet
bracken is best tackled in overtrousers regardless of whether it is
raining or not.

Quoted message said:

I try to avoid margins whenever possible, generally choosing to park my car
higher up to avoid all that valley nonsense.

Not always possible and if you collect Marilyns not even probable.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The forth is what should happen if you become disabled for any reason.

Quoted message said:

True.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sods law says that even if you walk alone only
occasionally when you need help you will be on your own

Quoted message said:

The only time I had an accident was on a sunny day on Kinder Scout, in a
group of people all armed with maps, GPS and mobiles, and the whole hill
covered with hundreds of walkers! I limped back slowly on my own, there was
really no risk in those conditions. If I'd been unable to make it
there were
plenty of people around to ask for assistance.

That's ok if you are in one of the honeypots but if you had been too
badly injured to walk and there had been no one around you would have
had a long crawl, as I would have had last year if the bottomless hole I
managed to put a foot into had been any narrower. That was on an obscure
Marilyn called Sighty Crag up near the border. There was no evidence on
the ground that anyone else had passed that way recently and as the
weather was bad I would have had no option but to crawl several miles
through the bogs to get anywhere where I stood even a remote chance of
being heard.

--
Roger Chapman
Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
89 miles as the crow flies,
considerably more as the walker drives.

The message <[email hidden]>
from Simon Challands <[email hidden]> contains these words:

big snips as I have covered many of the points in my reply to Paul.

Quoted message said:

I'll often look at a map in unfamiliar territory, but as I said
before, I can't remember when I last looked at a compass. I've never
even bothered with a GPS. It can do things that might be of interest,
but it's an additional toy IMO, at least in the places I usually go.
If you often end up trudging around moorland in atrocious weather I
imagine it could be quite useful.

I prefer to orient the map. The surest (and for that matter the easiest)
is by looking at the compass.

I carry a gps but if the route to the next summit is neither obvious or
a direct line I would take a rough bearing off the map and walk on that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also fail to
understand what's so bad about just wearing shorts and t-shirts on a
sunny day. It makes sense to carry something else, but in the middle
of summer in a period of settled high pressure it's not worth worrying
about.

That is where the 'what ifs' come in.

Quoted message said:

Society these days is far too paranoid about "what ifs", to the extent
that I've seen people on the fells in good weather looking prepared
for mountain climbing in Antarctica.

I don't think I am paranoid but then I am not best placed to judge that.
As it is you would unlikely to pick me out as an arctic numptie if we
did pass on the hills although if there is snow about I will probably be
carrying an axe and if the hills are icy crampons as well.

snip

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The second is the difference between the conditions down in the valley
and up on the tops. Last weekend gave contrasting conditions between
Friday and Saturday and Sunday. On Friday it was so still I didn't need
anything over my shirt. On Saturday there was a breeze at low level
which just about justified an open fleece but on the tops a fleece* was
only just enough when moving and a jacket was required at the lunch
break. On Sunday when I was on my own for a 5 hour walk the wind was
marginally colder and I just didn't bother to stop.

Quoted message said:

That's where experience comes in. Again, last weekend is hardly the
middle of summer. It also depends on where you're going. Personally
I'll always be carrying something to put on over the t-shirt if I set
out in one, but in summer it's hardly a major error. At this time of
year, it probably isn't all that sensible. Of course, you don't know
what someone is carrying in their sack.

Ok you have convinced me. I obviously don't have sufficient experience
to comment on these weighty matters :-) but sack? Surely they are
overdressed if they are carrying a rucksack?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The third is the nature of the margins. It is not at all pleasant going
through solid nettles without some protection on the legs and wet
bracken is best tackled in overtrousers regardless of whether it is
raining or not.

Quoted message said:

Again, a minor issue (assuming you check for ticks afterwards anyway,
which seem to be able to sneak through whatever you're wearing).

I seem to have led a charmed life but I don't (touch wood) ever remember
being ticked.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The forth is what should happen if you become disabled for any reason.
The more you are carrying (within reason) the more chance you have of
surviving. It doesn't have to be anything serious. Sudden loss of energy
or a twisted ankle miles from the nearest person can turn a day out from
a pleasant walk to a struggle for survival in an instant. If you have a
companion or a mobile phone you could perhaps rely on them to summon
assistance but sods law says that even if you walk alone only
occasionally when you need help you will be on your own and if you have
a mobile you won't be able to get a signal when you need it.

Quoted message said:

All being overly paranoid IMO. Mine exploration is something where I
take that attitude, but walking I almost always go on my own, and
don't take a mobile (can't stand the things). If you carry on with the
"what ifs" you'll either end up carrying so much that that loss of
energy is almost guaranteed, or you'll not bother going at all. Since
most of the time I'm walking in the Lake District, the chances of
there not being anyone else around in the very unlikely event I do get
in real trouble (as opposed to just uncomfortable) are (unfortunately)
high. I sometimes wonder how people manage to get any pleasure out of
life these days, they seem so paranoid about something dangerous that
might happen that they are always having to worry about it.

Since I tend not to carry very much gear (not even a first aid kit) I
think you are barking up the wrong tree, or barking something anyway.

--
Roger Chapman
Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
89 miles as the crow flies,
considerably more as the walker drives.