Making bread rise without yeast

jmm1951 said:

Being a kind of perpetual advanced beginner when it comes to cooking,
I am always playing around with different ideas and ways of
economizing. SInce yeast is kind of expensive (relative to flour and
salt) when you get it in individual packets, (though cheaper when
bought at Sam's Club), I thought I would look at ways of using natural
yeasts, etc.

snip starter recipes...

If your hesitation in using yeast is cost only, do go ahead and buy a
1lb container from any club store around. The stuff lasts forever and
a day in the freezer and only forever in the fridge. I used 2.5 yr old
yeast to make bread over the weekend. No problemo.

Ok...on to starters....

You can easily make a starter of only flour and water. Nothing else is
needed. There is a link below to read up on it. You can make a starter
easily with rye flour, too and use that, if you wish for making rye
bread. Many people create a starter with rye to get it going and
switch it over to white flour once it is established. You can
certainly maintain a rye starter, though.

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

You can easily and inexpensively (cost of a stamp and self addressed
envelope) obtain a tried and true dried starter from the link below.
Recipes are there, too.

http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/

Quoted message said:

So far this smells wonderful, and I am sure it will work fine and make
an even better bread, but it still has yeast in it. Anyone have any
ideas on making a good sourdough starter for a rye loaf without using
any yeast?

Here is one of Darrell Greenwood's pages that talks about converting
yeast recipes to sourdough starter ones.

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howdoiconvertyeastbreadrec.html

Another thing you can do to deepen the flavor of your regular yeast or
sourdough breads is to use a sponge, biga, poolish or pre-ferment when
making them....basically, you combine starter, flour and water, or a
small amount of yeast, flour and water and let it ferment overnight.
Continue with your recipe the next day. It truly helps in bread
flavor.

A link for reading up on some great recipes that use these
pre-ferments is here:

http://www.theartisan.net/bredfrm.htm

Another all around good site for bread baking in general is here:

http://www.barryharmon.com/

Now, for more fun, come on over to alt.bread.recipes.

Boron

Boron wrote on Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:05:10 -0400:
BE> Another thing you can do to deepen the flavor of your
BE> regular yeast or sourdough breads is to use a sponge, biga,
BE> poolish or pre-ferment when making them....basically, you
BE> combine starter, flour and water, or a small amount of
BE> yeast, flour and water and let it ferment overnight.
BE> Continue with your recipe the next day. It truly helps in
BE> bread flavor.

It helps a lot to be in San Francisco! The wild sour-dough
yeasts there *are* the best!

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

James Silverton said:

Boron wrote on Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:05:10 -0400:
BE> Another thing you can do to deepen the flavor of your
BE> regular yeast or sourdough breads is to use a sponge, biga,
BE> poolish or pre-ferment when making them....basically, you
BE> combine starter, flour and water, or a small amount of
BE> yeast, flour and water and let it ferment overnight.
BE> Continue with your recipe the next day. It truly helps in
BE> bread flavor.

It helps a lot to be in San Francisco! The wild sour-dough
yeasts there *are* the best!

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

I beg to differ. It is not just the culture that contributes to the
flavor of the bread, but the ingredients themselves, dough formation,
rise times and baking techniques.

And let me add another wonderful bread site:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/

Boron

"Boron Elgar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:29:38 -0700, jmm1951 <[email hidden]> wrote:

A link for reading up on some great recipes that use these
pre-ferments is here:

http://www.theartisan.net/bredfrm.htm

Another all around good site for bread baking in general is here:

http://www.barryharmon.com/

Now, for more fun, come on over to alt.bread.recipes.

Boron

You forgot http://planeguy.mine.nu/bread/ the FAQ for alt.bread.recipes
Janet

Boron wrote on Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:38:37 -0400:

??>> Boron wrote on Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:05:10 -0400:
BE>>> Another thing you can do to deepen the flavor of your
BE>>> regular yeast or sourdough breads is to use a sponge,
BE>>> biga, poolish or pre-ferment when making
BE>>> them....basically, you combine starter, flour and water,
BE>>> or a small amount of yeast, flour and water and let it
BE>>> ferment overnight. Continue with your recipe the next
BE>>> day. It truly helps in bread flavor.
??>>
??>> It helps a lot to be in San Francisco! The wild sour-dough
??>> yeasts there *are* the best!
??>>
??>> James Silverton
??>> Potomac, Maryland
??>>
BE> I beg to differ. It is not just the culture that
BE> contributes to the flavor of the bread, but the ingredients
BE> themselves, dough formation, rise times and baking
BE> techniques.

BE> And let me add another wonderful bread site:

BE> http://www.thefreshloaf.com/

I expected (hoped?) for this reaction from someone. It is a fact
that starter working well for us in San Francisco, gradually
changes to rather ordinary around Washington DC. I think the San
Francisco yeasts are not as hardy as the East Coast ones. I am
not the only one to observe this :-)

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

jmm1951 said:

I am always playing around with different ideas and ways of
economizing. SInce yeast is kind of expensive (relative to flour and
salt) when you get it in individual packets, (though cheaper when
bought at Sam's Club.

Yeast is actually relatively inexpensive compared with everything else
involved with bread baking (the typical single loaf of white bread
costs more to bake than all it's ingredients combined). Claiming
yeast is expensive within the realm of baking bread is like saying
fountain pen ink is expensive in relation to pens. Also, if you're
going to bake the occasional loaf why does the price of yeast
matter... and if you bake more than occasionally and/or are a cheapB
then you'd just be a great big fool by not buying bulk yeast.

Sheldon

"James Silverton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:lRgDi.1502$6T5.65@trnddc06...

Quoted message said:

I expected (hoped?) for this reaction from someone. It is a fact that
starter working well for us in San Francisco, gradually changes to rather
ordinary around Washington DC. I think the San Francisco yeasts are not as
hardy as the East Coast ones. I am not the only one to observe this :-)

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

I'm not sure what you mean about the difference between SF yeasts and East
Coast yeasts not being as "hardy." Would 'hardy' yeasts be the cause of the
difference in flavor?
Dee Dee (lived San Francisco many years and ate a lot of SF Sourdough)

jmm1951 said:

SInce yeast is kind of expensive (relative to flour and
salt) when you get it in individual packets, (though cheaper when
bought at Sam's Club), I thought I would look at ways of using natural
yeasts, etc.

Last three-pack of Red Star Yeast I bought was $.79. Enough for
12+ loaves of the no-knead bread recipe.

-sw

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sheldon said:

Melba's Jammin' wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sweepstakes White Bread (Half recipe - 2 large loaves)
1 cup milk scalded

Why scalded? There's no reason to scald milk anymore, not since the
advent of pasteurization.

Sheldon

Probably because it's an old recipe and those of the time often
instructed to scald the milk, necessary or not.
--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
For your listening pleasure: http://www.am1500.com/pcast/80509.mp3 --
from the MN State Fair, 8-29-07

Steve Wertz said:

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:29:38 -0700, jmm1951 wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

SInce yeast is kind of expensive (relative to flour and
salt) when you get it in individual packets, (though cheaper when
bought at Sam's Club), I thought I would look at ways of using natural
yeasts, etc.

Quoted message said:

Last three-pack of Red Star Yeast I bought was $.79. Enough for
12+ loaves of the no-knead bread recipe.

My local grocery store (Andronico's) charges $2.99 for a
3-pack of Fleishman's yeast. Of course that is an absurdly
high price. I use 2/3 of a pack to make one good-sized pizza.

Steve

Dee wrote on Tue, 4 Sep 2007 18:22:30 -0400:

DD> "James Silverton" <[email hidden]> wrote in
DD> message news:lRgDi.1502$6T5.65@trnddc06...
??>> I expected (hoped?) for this reaction from someone. It is
??>> a fact that starter working well for us in San Francisco,
??>> gradually changes to rather ordinary around Washington DC.
??>> I think the San Francisco yeasts are not as hardy as the
??>> East Coast ones. I am not the only one to observe this :-)
??>>
??>> James Silverton
??>> Potomac, Maryland

It happens! The starter loses its ability to produce good sour
dough! What other explanation is there apart from a change in
the yeast?

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On Tue, 4 Sep 2007 11:39:41 -0600, "Janet B." <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Boron Elgar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:29:38 -0700, jmm1951 <[email hidden]> wrote:

A link for reading up on some great recipes that use these
pre-ferments is here:

http://www.theartisan.net/bredfrm.htm

Another all around good site for bread baking in general is here:

http://www.barryharmon.com/

Now, for more fun, come on over to alt.bread.recipes.

Boron

You forgot http://planeguy.mine.nu/bread/ the FAQ for alt.bread.recipes
Janet

AAK! Slap me with a wet noodle!

Thanks, Janet.....boy, of all things to forget!

Boron

Sheldon said:

Melba's Jammin said:

Sweepstakes White Bread (Half recipe - 2 large loaves)
1 cup milk scalded

Why scalded? There's no reason to scald milk anymore, not since the
advent of pasteurization.

Pasteurization has nothing to do with it. Scalding milk
deactivates proteins/enzymes that inhibit gluten formation.
Scalding brings milk to a higher temperature than any of the
pasteurization techniques in use by bottlers.

-sw

"James Silverton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:f6mDi.10000$sf1.2731@trnddc01...

Quoted message said:

Dee wrote on Tue, 4 Sep 2007 18:22:30 -0400:

DD> "James Silverton" <[email hidden]> wrote in
DD> message news:lRgDi.1502$6T5.65@trnddc06...
??>> I expected (hoped?) for this reaction from someone. It is
??>> a fact that starter working well for us in San Francisco,
??>> gradually changes to rather ordinary around Washington DC.
??>> I think the San Francisco yeasts are not as hardy as the
??>> East Coast ones. I am not the only one to observe this :-)
??>>
??>> James Silverton
??>> Potomac, Maryland

It happens! The starter loses its ability to produce good sour dough!
What other explanation is there apart from a change in the yeast?

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

World Sourdoughs from Antiquity by Ed Wood
and
Classic Sourdoughs: A Home Baker's Handbook by Ed Wood
and
Have you been subscribed to rec.food.sourdough?
Dee Dee

Quoted message said:

"Steve Wertz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sheldon said:

Melba's Jammin said:

Sweepstakes White Bread (Half recipe - 2 large loaves)
1 cup milk scalded

Why scalded? There's no reason to scald milk anymore, not since the
advent of pasteurization.

Pasteurization has nothing to do with it. Scalding milk
deactivates proteins/enzymes that inhibit gluten formation.
Scalding brings milk to a higher temperature than any of the
pasteurization techniques in use by bottlers.

-sw

I believe there are different methods of pasteurization, as you probably
already know; i.e., flash, etc. bringing it up to a certain degree for a
certain length of time.

However, I believe that scalding is 185, isn't it. Or maybe 180.

When I make ice cream, (and it is from raw milk, so it is not pasteurized) I
do bring it up to 185. I don't do this for pasteurization.

Dee Dee

Steve Pope said:

Steve Wertz said:

Last three-pack of Red Star Yeast I bought was $.79. Enough for
12+ loaves of the no-knead bread recipe.

My local grocery store (Andronico's) charges $2.99 for a
3-pack of Fleishman's yeast. Of course that is an absurdly
high price. I use 2/3 of a pack to make one good-sized pizza.

Yikes. It looks like Amazon charges $2.19 for the same Red Star
yeasts. Fleischmans yeast is $1.09 here as well.

Foe some reason staples are really cheap here in Texas. A loaf
of regular white sandwich bread is $.59 (store brand, but better
than Wonder). In CA it's no less than $2.39. Dozen Large eggs
are $1.27. Etc... How much do people pay for the Kerns fruit
nectars? $.33/can here or $1.19/liter.

-sw

Dee Dee said:

"Steve Wertz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Pasteurization has nothing to do with it. Scalding milk
deactivates proteins/enzymes that inhibit gluten formation.
Scalding brings milk to a higher temperature than any of the
pasteurization techniques in use by bottlers.

I believe there are different methods of pasteurization, as you probably
already know; i.e., flash, etc. bringing it up to a certain degree for a
certain length of time.

However, I believe that scalding is 185, isn't it. Or maybe 180.

A scald is 190F. Almost all commercial milk is brought to 161F
for 15 seconds to be considered pasteurized. You can go higher
for shorter lengths of time, but I'm pretty sure the 15-second
method is the least destructive to thew taste/texture.

-sw

"Steve Wertz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Pope said:

Steve Wertz said:

Last three-pack of Red Star Yeast I bought was $.79. Enough for
12+ loaves of the no-knead bread recipe.

I prefer SAF Yeast
http://www.pleasanthillgrain.com/grains_baking_supplies.asp

It runs $3.50 for 16 oz.
For 4 loaves of bread (18 oz.) I use 1/2 tablespoon yeast.
Dee Dee

Dee Dee said:

"Steve Wertz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:36:26 -0700, Sheldon wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Melba's Jammin' wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Sweepstakes White Bread (Half recipe - 2 large loaves)
> 1 cup milk scalded

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why scalded? There's no reason to scald milk anymore, not since the
advent of pasteurization.

Quoted message said:

Pasteurization has nothing to do with it. Scalding milk
deactivates proteins/enzymes that inhibit gluten formation.
Scalding brings milk to a higher temperature than any of the
pasteurization techniques in use by bottlers.

Quoted message said:

-sw

I believe there are different methods of pasteurization, as you probably
already know; i.e., flash, etc. bringing it up to a certain degree for a
certain length of time.

However, I believe that scalding is 185, isn't it. Or maybe 180.

When I make ice cream, (and it is from raw milk, so it is not pasteurized) I
do bring it up to 185. I don't do this for pasteurization.

Understood. So, do you have the raw stuff for fresh uses? It sure
tastes good. The more you cook milk, the less great it is. It is
still good, but the closer to raw, the better. Now, cream, it makes
less difference. It's the milk part that's affected.

Quoted message said:

Dee Dee

--Bryan