Greg v. Lance

Here's a start: the finishes by every American at the Tour de France.

Also, suffice it to say Lance was on his way up the ladder, while Greg was on his way down.

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Quoted message said:

Lance Armstrong and Greg LeMond. Can anyone point me to specific results when Lance and Greg raced
in the same races? Did they ever reace in the same TdF? Worlds?

Their only TdF in common would be 1994, where Greg abandoned just after returning from Great Britan.

I don't think they ever did any Worlds together.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Brian Roth
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Quoted message said:

Lance Armstrong and Greg LeMond. Can anyone point me to specific results when Lance and Greg raced
in the same races? Did they ever reace in the same TdF? Worlds?

Their only TdF in common would be 1994, where Greg abandoned just after returning from Great Britan.

I don't think they ever did any Worlds together.

Comparing the two by when they raced together is crazy. Lance was an entirely differnt rider after cancer and Lemond was a broken rider. If you want a comparison look at V02 max or something like that. I know that they have been on this NG before. Some people here would be better at interpreting though. There are all these other things to take into account that I don;t understand well enough to explain.

"lazysegall" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Brian Roth said:

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Quoted message said:

Lance Armstrong and Greg LeMond. Can anyone point me to specific results when Lance and Greg
raced in the same races? Did they ever reace in the same TdF? Worlds?

Their only TdF in common would be 1994, where Greg abandoned just

after

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

returning from Great Britan. I don't think they ever did any Worlds together.

Comparing the two by when they raced together is crazy. Lance was an entirely differnt rider after
cancer and Lemond was a broken rider. If you want a comparison look at V02 max or something like
that. I know that they have been on this NG before. Some people here would be better at
interpreting though. There are all these other things to take into account that I don;t understand
well enough to explain.

Greg is almost exactly 10 years older than Lance (or maybe that is me and Lance is 11 years older).

lazysegall said:

Brian Roth said:

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Quoted message said:

Lance Armstrong and Greg LeMond. Can anyone point me to specific results when Lance and Greg
raced in the same races? Did they ever reace in the same TdF? Worlds?

Their only TdF in common would be 1994, where Greg abandoned just after returning from Great
Britan. I don't think they ever did any Worlds together.

Comparing the two by when they raced together is crazy. Lance was an entirely differnt rider after
cancer and Lemond was a broken rider.

As was stated elsewhere, Greg was on his last legs, Lance was just getting into his brashness, where
he wanted to kick everyone's ass in the euro peloton.

Quoted message said:

If you want a comparison look at V02 max or something like that. I know that they have been on
this NG before. Some people here would be better at interpreting though.

and some, less so, which doesn't necessarily stop some people.

Quoted message said:

There are all these other things to take into account that I don;t understand well enough to
explain.

Which never stops a good old fashioned virtual Donnybrook.

Greg's made various statements about how many Tours he would have won without the hunting accident.
There's also that 5th Hinault victory which would have doubtlessly been LeMond's were he on any
other team. There's lots of 'ifs' and 'buts' for lots of riders. Who knows how Bartali and Coppi
might have done without WW2 getting in the way, etc.

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Quoted message said:

Lance Armstrong and Greg LeMond. Can anyone point me to specific results when Lance and Greg raced
in the same races? Did they ever reace in the same TdF? Worlds?

By coincidence, the current (November) Cycle Sport has a comparison of these two in which the 1994
prologue is mentioned as a head-to-head. LeMond was 22nd, 41 secs. down on Boardman. Armstrong was
18th, 39 secs. down.

-RJ

PS - A question: Is there any season that Armstrong would have come close to winning the Super
Prestige Pernod if it had still existed? I'm guessing not - anyone have a more informed guess?

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Quoted message said:

-RJ

PS - A question: Is there any season that Armstrong would have come close to winning the Super
Prestige Pernod if it had still existed? I'm guessing not - anyone have a more informed guess?

Well, if you consider the Super Prestige Pernod as the pre-cursor to the modern day World Cup, then
I'd have to say "NO".

[email hidden] (Ronaldo Jeremiah) wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Lance Armstrong and Greg LeMond. Can anyone point me to specific results when Lance and Greg
raced in the same races? Did they ever reace in the same TdF? Worlds?

By coincidence, the current (November) Cycle Sport has a comparison of these two in which the 1994
prologue is mentioned as a head-to-head. LeMond was 22nd, 41 secs. down on Boardman. Armstrong was
18th, 39 secs. down.

-RJ

PS - A question: Is there any season that Armstrong would have come close to winning the Super
Prestige Pernod if it had still existed? I'm guessing not - anyone have a more informed guess?

The Super-Prestige Pernod was a points -based compeptition that awarded points for the major Tours
and Classics (IIRC).

Lemond won in in 83, finsihed 3rd in 85 and 2nd in 86. I don't know the exact formulas, but a look
at the high points in his Tour and Classics results in those years makes for impressive reading:

1983 1st World Road Championships 2nd Giro di Lombardia 10th Fleche Wallone 30th Milan-San Remo

1985 2nd Tour de France Tour de France stage win 2nd World Road Championships 3rd Giro d'Italia 4th
Paris-Roubaix 7th Ronde van Vlaanderen

1986 1st Tour de France Tour de France stage win 2nd Milan San Remo 4th Giro d'Italia 1 Giro
d'Italia stage win 4th Championship of Zurich 5th Fleche Wallone 7th World Championships 11th Ronde
van Vlaanderen

Not even in their wildest Bob Roll-narrated wet dream fantasies can the Lance-aholics envision their
boy pulling off season results like these. Even the Pap man has to bow down. He would have no chance
at the Super Prestige Pernod, many of which I have seen sitting in the cabinet in King Eddy's office
at the Meise factory.

Armstrongs best results (classics and Tours)

03 1st Tour de France 4th Amstel Gold 59th Ronde van Vlaanderen

01 1st Tour de France 2nd Amstel Gold

99 1st Tour de France 4 Tour de France stage wins 2nd Amstel Gold race

96 1st Fleche Wallone 2nd Liege Bastogne Liege

95 Tour de France stage win 1st San Sebastien

93 1st World Road Championships Tour de France stage win

"Scott Hendricks" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Ronaldo Jeremiah) wrote in message

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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

-RJ

PS - A question: Is there any season that Armstrong would have come close to winning the Super
Prestige Pernod if it had still existed? I'm guessing not - anyone have a more informed
guess?

Well, if you consider the Super Prestige Pernod as the pre-cursor to the modern day World Cup,
then I'd have to say "NO".

Quite different animals. The SPP included many races not part of the WC.

"Richard Adams" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Greg's made various statements about how many Tours he would have won without the hunting
accident. There's also that 5th Hinault victory which would have doubtlessly been LeMond's were he
on any other team. There's lots of 'ifs' and 'buts' for lots of riders. Who knows how Bartali and
Coppi might have done without WW2 getting in the way, etc.

Dumbass -

I could make 600 watts at threshold, I'd have won many more TdF's than I have so far.

K. Gringioni 10 time virtual TdF Champion

ps. I used to be a huge fan of Lemond, but now I think he's a tool, after he said that stupid [censored].

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Richard Adams" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ps. I used to be a huge fan of Lemond, but now I think he's a tool, after he said that stupid
[censored].

Dumb, Dumber and Dumberer

What stupid [censored] is that Dumbass ?

Lemond is the "True Hero of North American Cycling" as everyone knows he won his Tours on nothing
but Big Macs and double helpings of ice-cream.

"mr60percent" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in

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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Richard Adams" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ps. I used to be a huge fan of Lemond, but now I think he's a tool,

after he

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

said that stupid [censored].

Dumb, Dumber and Dumberer

What stupid [censored] is that Dumbass ?

Lemond is the "True Hero of North American Cycling" as everyone knows he won his Tours on nothing
but Big Macs and double helpings of ice-cream.

Taco Bell and ice cream.

mr60percent said:

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Richard Adams" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ps. I used to be a huge fan of Lemond, but now I think he's a tool, after he said that stupid
[censored].

Quoted message said:

Dumb, Dumber and Dumberer

Quoted message said:

What stupid [censored] is that Dumbass ?

Quoted message said:

Lemond is the "True Hero of North American Cycling" as everyone knows he won his Tours on nothing
but Big Macs and double helpings of ice-cream.

He is referring to the 'virtual Tour victory' stupid [censored]. A claim that is only credible when
accompanied with ignorance (in abundant supply her in North America regarding racing during that
era) along with a large dollop of horseshit.

You're right about the Big Macs and ice cream though, and he has my admiration for that. And don't
forget the beer: groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗

Note: Legal drinking age at the time was 18.

Bob Schwartz [email hidden]

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Richard Adams" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Greg's made various statements about how many Tours he would have won without the hunting
accident. There's also that 5th Hinault victory which would have doubtlessly been LeMond's were
he on any other team. There's lots of 'ifs' and 'buts' for lots of riders. Who knows how Bartali
and Coppi might have done without WW2 getting in the way, etc.

Dumbass -

I could make 600 watts at threshold, I'd have won many more TdF's than I

have

Quoted message said:

so far.

K. Gringioni 10 time virtual TdF Champion

FOOLS! YOU NEVER THOUGHT TO ASK ABOUT MY TOUR RECORD I WILL WIN MY 21ST VIRTUAL TOUT NEXT YEAR
UNNOPPOSED!!!

Quoted message said:

ps. I used to be a huge fan of Lemond, but now I think he's a tool, after

he

Quoted message said:

said that stupid [censored].

[email hidden] (Tony) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Ronaldo Jeremiah) wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Lance Armstrong and Greg LeMond. Can anyone point me to specific results when Lance and Greg
raced in the same races? Did they ever reace in the same TdF? Worlds?

The Super-Prestige Pernod was a points -based compeptition that awarded points for the major Tours
and Classics (IIRC).

Lemond won in in 83, finsihed 3rd in 85 and 2nd in 86. I don't know the exact formulas, but a look
at the high points in his Tour and Classics results in those years makes for impressive reading:

I think one of the really impressive things about Lemond that is often overlooked is that combined
with his TT and climbing ability he had a savage road-man sprint. He beat Sean Kelly to win the '89
World Championships in a 3 up sprint. Kelly who won the Super-Prestige Pernod 3 times and finished
second and third and held the FICP #1 ranking for much of the eighties still regards this as his
biggest disappointment.

What's also really impressive in the results that you posted is the range of classics that Lemond
did well in Milan San Remo, Fleche Wallone, Ronde van Vlaanderen, Paris-Roubaix, Giro di Lombardia -
nearly all the monuments of cycling.

Another thing for the results fans is that he is a 3-time world champion:

1979 1st Junior World Road Race 1982 2nd World Road Championships 1983 1st World Road Championships
1985 2nd World Road Championships 1989 1st World Road Championships

Given he was out of the sport in 87 and 88 his results are amazing. Lemond had unquestionable talent
from the word go and he is one of the few great Champions (apart from Merckx) to win both the Junior
and Professional World Road Championships. Again apart form Merckx his record is the most impressive
of any cyclist in the World Road Championships from any period.

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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"Scott Hendricks" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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[email hidden] (Ronaldo Jeremiah) wrote in message

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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

-RJ

PS - A question: Is there any season that Armstrong would have come close to winning the Super
Prestige Pernod if it had still existed? I'm guessing not - anyone have a more informed
guess?

Well, if you consider the Super Prestige Pernod as the pre-cursor to the modern day World Cup,
then I'd have to say "NO".

Quite different animals. The SPP included many races not part of the WC.

Yes, they are different animals, but... many consider the SPP to be the closest thing to the present
day WC at that time.

The point is, Lemond WON a season-long series comprised of one-day races, and Armstrong has
not (yet).

[email hidden] (Rik O'Shea) wrote in message
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[email hidden] (Tony) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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[email hidden] wrote in message
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> Lance Armstrong and Greg LeMond. Can anyone point me to specific results when Lance and Greg
> raced in the same races? Did they ever reace in the same TdF? Worlds?

The Super-Prestige Pernod was a points -based compeptition that awarded points for the major
Tours and Classics (IIRC).

Lemond won in in 83, finsihed 3rd in 85 and 2nd in 86. I don't know the exact formulas, but a
look at the high points in his Tour and Classics results in those years makes for impressive
reading:

I think one of the really impressive things about Lemond that is often overlooked is that combined
with his TT and climbing ability he had a savage road-man sprint. He beat Sean Kelly to win the
'89 World Championships in a 3 up sprint. Kelly who won the Super-Prestige Pernod 3 times and
finished second and third and held the FICP #1 ranking for much of the eighties still regards this
as his biggest disappointment.

What's also really impressive in the results that you posted is the range of classics that Lemond
did well in Milan San Remo, Fleche Wallone, Ronde van Vlaanderen, Paris-Roubaix, Giro di Lombardia
- nearly all the monuments of cycling.

Another thing for the results fans is that he is a 3-time world champion:

1979 1st Junior World Road Race 1982 2nd World Road Championships 1983 1st World Road
Championships 1985 2nd World Road Championships 1989 1st World Road Championships

Given he was out of the sport in 87 and 88 his results are amazing. Lemond had unquestionable
talent from the word go and he is one of the few great Champions (apart from Merckx) to win both
the Junior and Professional World Road Championships. Again apart form Merckx his record is the
most impressive of any cyclist in the World Road Championships from any period.

The WC was definitely a race that motivated Lemond. Not to take anything away from Lemond's results
but, between 1956 and 1953, the Emperor of Herentals- Rik Van Looy stood on the podium at the World
Championships four times, with back to back wins in 60 and 61 and two second places in 56 and 63. He
would have had the third win in 63 if it weren't for the "interesting" tactics employed by his
Belgian teammate Beheyt, who agreed to ride for Rik II but lost the plot when he reached out and
pulled himself past his team leader at the line.

(IMO, Lemond's junior achievements are just that- junior achievements with no place in this
discussion)

PS- according to his teammate Vin Denson, Rik liked his Stella and would make teammates go back and
fetch him a mid-race beer, so I guess he held his beer better than Greg too.

"Rik O'Shea" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

I think one of the really impressive things about Lemond that is often overlooked is that combined
with his TT and climbing ability he had a savage road-man sprint. He beat Sean Kelly to win the
'89 World Championships in a 3 up sprint. Kelly who won the Super-Prestige Pernod 3 times and
finished second and third and held the FICP #1 ranking for much of the eighties still regards this
as his biggest disappointment.

I remember watching Lemond race at Grand Prix Ameriques in '89, sandwiched between his tour win and
the World's win. Gawd his legs were tree trunks! By the end of the race, him and Kelly were
sprinting for 4th (I forget who was 1-3, they came in seperately - tough course). Heads were leaning
into the road, anticipating the sprint. Those two raced like their heads were gonna explode, it was
a phenomenal burst of energy to feel them fly by with inches between them and us. Lemond won that
contest against Kelly, which must have given him confidence a few weeks later at the Worlds.

Lance is obviously the dominate tour rider of his day. But Greg wasn't the best of his day. Fignon
was a better tour rider.

Don't forget that Fignon as well as Roche had physical problems. And Lemond only won '89 because of
the bars (don't forget the time he gained in the first long time trial) and in '90 he won but wasn't
the best rider.

Fignon won in '83, dominated in '84 and, in fairness, should also have won the Giro that year. And
in '89 he was the best rider. I think he also has a Tour of Spain victory but I'm not sure.

Ron