13.38 miles

Darrin said:

Darrin

"I was able to run the final two miles at 10:15 m/m,
which was my fastest split time. But I felt like I was barely moving,
if I had stopped to walk in the last mile I would never had gotten
started running again. "

You ran the fastest at the end.
You felt like you were barely moving.
If you stopped, you could not have started again.

Please explain for us what the hell that means. Either you are running
well or not. And how you feel two hours after means very little. What
counts is how you run the next day.

Darrin said:

I got home, showered, and ate breakfast, then the little problem
started. My legs started cramping up and the cramps lasted about half
an hour. After that everything felt fine. During the run I used GU
twice, during the walks, and before the run I ate a power bar. I am
just wondering if the cramps may be a recurring problem, or is it
because I have never pushed myself for that long before? And if there
is anything I can do differently to avoid them next time?

You stress the food here - GU, power bar, breakfast - but leave out
the drinks. I'm surprised to find myself typing "could easily be
dehydration" before Dan beat me to it.

And in my experience, it seems like cramps and muscle twitches can
also be more of a purely physical muscular reaction to stress/
overwork, in the presence of all the water and nutrients you'd ever
want. For instance I get calf problems like nighttime cramps if I
don't stretch them enough - especially if combined with stress from
hard & long runs like say a half marathon race.

I've already given you my opinions on building up long runs and that,
as far as you've come, 2:20+ seems to me mighty aggressive (= risky);
won't belabor that point any more except to mention, just this once,
that in my own marathon training this fall I doubt I'll run for 2:22
or longer more than a couple times, off a base of hopefully 75-95
miles per week. :-)

Pendejo wrote:
| in my own marathon training this fall I doubt I'll run for 2:22
| or longer more than a couple times, off a base of hopefully 75-95
| miles per week. :-)

Based on your recent quality (fast) training, I am guessing that 2:22
would amount to 20+ miles. No?
I was glad to see your tlog again, CP. Any goals of get under 3?
BTW, as a master you BQed for 08 from your 3:09 (?) NYM.

Al Bundy said:

Darrin said:

Darrin

"I was able to run the final two miles at 10:15 m/m,
which was my fastest split time. But I felt like I was barely moving,
if I had stopped to walk in the last mile I would never had gotten
started running again. "

You ran the fastest at the end.
You felt like you were barely moving.
If you stopped, you could not have started again.

Please explain for us what the hell that means. Either you are running
well or not. And how you feel two hours after means very little. What
counts is how you run the next day.

I took two walk breaks during the run, each for about 2 minutes. If I
had stopped to walk during the last mile I would have been walking
home.

I felt like I was running real slow at the end, but I wasn't compared
to the rest of the run.

Darrin wrote:
| This morning I successfully ran 13.37 miles for the first time.

Congratulations!

| My legs started cramping up and the cramps lasted about half
| an hour. After that everything felt fine. During the run I used GU
| twice, during the walks, and before the run I ate a power bar. I am
| just wondering if the cramps may be a recurring problem, or is it
| because I have never pushed myself for that long before? And if there
| is anything I can do differently to avoid them next time?

I have the same question, what was your fluid consumption?
Also, was it hot and humid? Do you stretch after runs?
I go slower whenever my distance goes up.
You will eventually get faster when stay at the same distance
for a few weeks.
If you train consistently and taper properly you can get under 2 HM.
But patience is paramount to be successful with your goals.

Charlie Pendejo said:

Darrin said:

I got home, showered, and ate breakfast, then the little problem
started. My legs started cramping up and the cramps lasted about half
an hour. After that everything felt fine. During the run I used GU
twice, during the walks, and before the run I ate a power bar. I am
just wondering if the cramps may be a recurring problem, or is it
because I have never pushed myself for that long before? And if there
is anything I can do differently to avoid them next time?

You stress the food here - GU, power bar, breakfast - but leave out
the drinks. I'm surprised to find myself typing "could easily be
dehydration" before Dan beat me to it.

And in my experience, it seems like cramps and muscle twitches can
also be more of a purely physical muscular reaction to stress/
overwork, in the presence of all the water and nutrients you'd ever
want. For instance I get calf problems like nighttime cramps if I
don't stretch them enough - especially if combined with stress from
hard & long runs like say a half marathon race.

I've already given you my opinions on building up long runs and that,
as far as you've come, 2:20+ seems to me mighty aggressive (= risky);
won't belabor that point any more except to mention, just this once,
that in my own marathon training this fall I doubt I'll run for 2:22
or longer more than a couple times, off a base of hopefully 75-95
miles per week. :-)

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I drank about 20 ounces of water
before the run, and drank 12 ounces of water and 15 ounces of powerade
during the run.

I was really surprised at the 2:22 time, I thought that it would be
around 2:45 this morning. I definitely did not start out to run
faster. I ran at a comfortable pace and was able to chat right up
until the last mile. This is going to be my last mileage increase
before December, but I am going to vary the times of the walk breaks
and the length of the walk breaks. Thanks for the advice.

I2Run said:

Based on your recent quality (fast) training, I am guessing that
2:22 would amount to 20+ miles. No?

Nah, more like 8 minute miles = maybe 17 and change for that time.
And running that long at this moment in my training (which is to say,
one week into ramping back up after three or four months slacking with
few to no longish runs) would be a really serious effort maybe
bordering on race effort. It'd take a big dent out of the rest of my
training the next week at least, and I'd really feel it in my hams and
hips.

I'm a long run wuss, basically, compared to many in this group. I
think part of that is due to whatever skeletal alignment or muscle
imbalance which makes my right leg way more prone to problems than my
left. It's improved some over the years as I slowly get generally
stronger but still I tolerate moderately high daily volume better than
both long-ass long runs and interval type workouts. In other words,
consistency over heroic individual workouts.

Quoted message said:

I was glad to see your tlog again, CP. Any goals of get under 3?
BTW, as a master you BQed for 08 from your 3:09 (?) NYM.

3:11 and change. Thanks I2! Your own training seems to be going
great.

I'm not gonna think too hard about goals until at least October. I'd
sure like to be shooting for at least a marathon PR. It'd be sweet if
sub-3 looks feasible but I honestly have little idea if that'll be in
the cards coming off such a slack late spring and early summer - it'd
have been a lot more optimal to have put some miles in the bank then,
so that now I could be easing into some workouts. As it is I don't
intend to get serious about workouts for some weeks, just consistent
miles for now.

Darrin said:

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I drank about 20 ounces of water
before the run, and drank 12 ounces of water and 15 ounces of powerade
during the run.

OK, thanks. My guess is, you may well have lost considerably more
water than that over your run.

We all have somewhat different hydration needs, and the ultra guys
tend to be way more in tune with their precise requirements (and I bet
any of them can give you a better guess than I could whether you were
drinking enough); but just for one data point I've been grabbing one
20 oz Gatorade on a 60 minute run, a second bottle for 90 minutes
(1). And I drink plenty before and after as well. I imagine your FL
conditions are at least as hot and sticky as what we've got here in
NY.

One way you can quantify this is to weigh yourself (sans dripping wet
clothes!) before and after then run. Every pound you're down = about
a pint of net water loss.

(1) For a two hour or more run, I wouldn't personally chug a third
bottle of G'rade: after a while something (likely the fructose) gets
to be too much for my gut. I'd either go with just water, or maybe
skip the G'rade from the start and go with gels instead.

Darrin said:

At no time did I doubt my ability to run the distance. I looked back
over the original post and can't find where you got that idea. I set
time goals to beat in every race, it is how I motivate myself. Maybe
you do it differently.- Hide quoted text -

Then why the walking breaks? Do you think 3 minutes made it so you
were able to finish?
It all sounded amaturish to me, so I assumed it was your first time
doing that long a distance.

Quoted message said:

Darrin said:

At no time did I doubt my ability to run the distance. I looked back
over the original post and can't find where you got that idea. I set
time goals to beat in every race, it is how I motivate myself. Maybe
you do it differently.- Hide quoted text -

Then why the walking breaks? Do you think 3 minutes made it so you
were able to finish?
It all sounded amaturish to me, so I assumed it was your first time
doing that long a distance.

That was a great assumption, since I stated as much in the first
sentence of my original post. Maybe you should actually read the posts
before you start criticizing. Or maybe you should just say good job,
and leave the advise and such for the people that know what they are
talking about.

Al Bundy <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1185652784.574615.281100
@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com:

Quoted message said:

What
counts is how you run the next day.

ok, I ran 5.14 miles at a pace 0f 11:47 m/m. I could have run faster if I
had wanted to. No cramps post run, in fact I fell great.

Pendejo wrote:
| Your own training seems to be going great.

Thanks CP, 5 day 50+ mpw has been working well for me.
I will stay there for the rest of the season while working on the quality.

| I'm not gonna think too hard about goals until at least October. I'd
| sure like to be shooting for at least a marathon PR. It'd be sweet if
| sub-3 looks feasible but I honestly have little idea if that'll be in
| the cards coming off such a slack late spring and early summer

I am sure you will pull off the both, good luck with the training.

Darrin Darrin said:

Al Bundy <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1185652784.574615.281100
@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com:

Quoted message said:

What
counts is how you run the next day.

ok, I ran 5.14 miles at a pace 0f 11:47 m/m. I could have run faster if I
had wanted to. No cramps post run, in fact I fell great.

There you go. You learned that those post run cramps meant nothing. If
I finish a run in good shape with nothing hurting, I try to ignore
pains that crop up after. It's a tough lesson to learn though. You
tend to feel anxious until you've repeated the process enough times.

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Darrin said:

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I drank about 20 ounces of water
before the run, and drank 12 ounces of water and 15 ounces of
powerade
during the run.

OK, thanks. My guess is, you may well have lost considerably more
water than that over your run.

We all have somewhat different hydration needs, and the ultra guys
tend to be way more in tune with their precise requirements (and I bet
any of them can give you a better guess than I could whether you were
drinking enough); but just for one data point I've been grabbing one
20 oz Gatorade on a 60 minute run, a second bottle for 90 minutes
(1). And I drink plenty before and after as well. I imagine your FL
conditions are at least as hot and sticky as what we've got here in
NY.

Agree. I think he is a bit low on the fluid during the run especially in
FL. FWIW I tend to do 20-24 Ozs an hour in the heat and humidity. Since
I tend to do loops/reps in my long runs, I calculate how many hours I
plan to run and take one per hour. If more than two hours I will take a
salt cap.

By the way CP, I had a phenomenal home brewed IPA yesterday after one of
my ultra friends finished the Escarpment race. Three "growlers" to be
exact. He called my Heineken skunk [censored] and thrust a cup of his brew in
my hand - thought I died and went to heaven. God help the race results.
I think we accounted for all the runners. 😉

-Doug

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Agree. I think he is a bit low on the fluid during the run especially in
FL. FWIW I tend to do 20-24 Ozs an hour in the heat and humidity. Since I
tend to do loops/reps in my long runs, I calculate how many hours I plan
to run and take one per hour. If more than two hours I will take a salt
cap.

By the way CP, I had a phenomenal home brewed IPA yesterday after one of
my ultra friends finished the Escarpment race. Three "growlers" to be
exact. He called my Heineken skunk [censored] and thrust a cup of his brew in my
hand - thought I died and went to heaven. God help the race results. I
think we accounted for all the runners. 😉

Luckily the remainder of the finish line crew were sober.
I've been quiet about your Heineken habit, you should have come to my
niece's birthday party, they had a keg of skunk [censored] on tap.
I still had a 40 minute drive home with the kids so I stuck with lemonade.

"Parker Race" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Luckily the remainder of the finish line crew were sober.

Method to my madness. Notice all the rest were playing it straight. 😉

Quoted message said:

I've been quiet about your Heineken habit,

CP and I are going to AA together

Quoted message said:

I still had a 40 minute drive home with the kids so I stuck with
lemonade.

I understand. And really, thanks for the help. If nothing else you now
have a better idea of what it means to have a pair approaching the
finish line. 🙂

-Doug

Great!
Something positive in this newsgroup.

Doug Freese said:

"Parker Race" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Luckily the remainder of the finish line crew were sober.

Method to my madness. Notice all the rest were playing it straight. 😉

Quoted message said:

I've been quiet about your Heineken habit,

CP and I are going to AA together

I wasn't referring to your drinking as a problem, I was referring to
your drinking *Heineken* as a problem! I have been diplomatic about
it's skunk [censored] character unlike your friend.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I still had a 40 minute drive home with the kids so I stuck with
lemonade.

I understand. And really, thanks for the help. If nothing else you now
have a better idea of what it means to have a pair approaching the
finish line. 🙂

It was an interesting perspective and gave me a reason to get to the
Catskills for a run and I also got to meet yet another rec.runner in
person. Too bad Lance didn't show up to make it a double.
As far as the man I accused of not having a pair, I noticed that the
woman he was behind had the same last name. So made he has a pair and
wanted to make sure he kept them!

Parker

"Darrin" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I got home, showered, and ate breakfast, then the little problem
started. My legs started cramping up and the cramps lasted about half
an hour. After that everything felt fine. During the run I used GU
twice, during the walks, and before the run I ate a power bar. I am
just wondering if the cramps may be a recurring problem, or is it
because I have never pushed myself for that long before?

Sounds like dehydration. I cramp if I lose more than 4-5 lbs.

You're still a bigger-than-average runner (although much lighter than you
were), and probably lost a lot of sweat out there. I typically drink 72 oz
(4.5 lbs of H20) on a 2.5 hour run, and still end up 2-3 lbs lighter than I
started, and I weigh only about 148lbs. The higher your BMI, the more
you'll sweat.

Did you weigh yourself before and after? How much did you drink?

Do you carry water? On longer runs, I carry a 2 bottle pack so I can drink
on the run (or walk). I use Accelerade, and carry extra powder for refills.

Great run and great progress.